Ready, Steady Eddie.....Go

bluesky · Post by **bluesky** » February 15th, 2006, 5:00 pm

thecoofreak wrote:
I know for sure of several players that are disgusted with EOS
Why don't you back up your statements with any names?

I am not prepared to do that.

Its not the place to do so...

glic · Post by **glic** » February 15th, 2006, 5:00 pm

Flash Gordon wrote:Dunno, POC is the kind of bloke who just gets his head down and does his job. Every coach's dream I imagine that Wally is just happy to be back in after years in the wilderness.....

I'd agree that POC wouldn't be the sort to go shooting his mouth off to the press but if the "new style" involves throwing the ball around at all costs regardless of the score-line or whether or not a decent platform has been secured up front then I can't see him or any of the munster pack being a big fan of it.
For all this talk of leinster playing an expansive and almost risky game they still do the basics well and they have plenty of cool heads in the team who know when to play it tight and when to cut loose (or attempt to cut loose). It would appear that Irelands new style involves plenty of risk and not much cop on

CM · Post by CM » February 15th, 2006, 5:05 pm

Flash

There's always going to be a bit of player unrest, especially with a team in transition that isn't winning. Doesn't mean it can't be solved and it doesn't mean he's 'lost' the dressing room. It's clear that EOS is listening to the players a lot more and doing what he can to make them happy. The cancelled training, extra days off, etc.

I'm not saying everything's rosy but if the players actually wanted EOS out then they wouldn't have responded in the way they did last weekend and there'd be some anonymous players talking to Thornley and co. Also Humphreys would have come along and backed Thornley's story if he didn't care about EOS.

I just think everything is been blown out of proportion because of the recent defeats. We're still a good team and even if EOS does go he'll still have left us in very good shape.

Flash Gordon · Post by **Flash Gordon** » February 15th, 2006, 5:13 pm

CM wrote:Flash

There's always going to be a bit of player unrest, especially with a team in transition that isn't winning. Doesn't mean it can't be solved and it doesn't mean he's 'lost' the dressing room. It's clear that EOS is listening to the players a lot more and doing what he can to make them happy. The cancelled training, extra days off, etc.

I'm not saying everything's rosy but if the players actually wanted EOS out then they wouldn't have responded in the way they did last weekend and there'd be some anonymous players talking to Thornley and co. Also Humphreys would have come along and backed Thornley's story if he didn't care about EOS.

I just think everything is been blown out of proportion because of the recent defeats. We're still a good team and even if EOS does go he'll still have left us in very good shape.

Dunno CM, he took over 5 years ago, we had gone from being (by far) the worst team in the championship to joint top on points having beaten England and france for the first time in donkey's years. We also were 20 minutes away from beating the All Blacks. Have we really moved on since then? We've had 11 or 12 genuine thumpings (they weren't supposed to happen anymore); we were bloody lucky to get to the quarter final of the World cup, our world ranking is pretty much the same and we haven't won the championship. To be honest, I think that in relation to the other teams, we've made little progress to be honest.....this with the most gifted players in a generation and unprecidented access to players and unlimited funding!

CM · Post by CM » February 15th, 2006, 5:26 pm

We've had 11 or 12 genuine thumpings

Ah come on. 11 or 12? We only lost one game at home until France last year under EOS. That's a pretty good record. We've also only gone one 6N without beating either England or France, our 1st one. We've won 1 less 6N game than England and 3 less than France. Not bad for our playing pool. Everyone keeps going on about the 'best crop ever' For starters I'd disagre with that as I don't think we've had a decent front row for years while our halfbacks are limited but even if we agree that we have 15 players that should be able to beat anyone those 15 players have hardly ever been fit at the same time. When we were accused of playing too conservatively against France 2 years ago we had Maggs and a newly converted centre plus Howe. Last year against Italy was the first time we've selected our 1st choice backline under EOS and that lasted 29 mins. You could argue that this year we've been able to pick our 1st choice backline for both games but I'd argue that if Hickie didn't have his injury he'd be in there. Either way, people refuse to look at the facts of the matter when it comes to what teams actually take the field. For example we were missing a load of players against Australia in summer 2003. When we were closer to full strength we nearly beat them.

Do I think it can all be put down to injuries? Of course not but I think O'Sullivan has acheived a lot in his time. We've beaten England twice, France once, Australia and South Africa. He also prepared the team well enough to beat NZ in 2002 and you know as well as I that if ROG had his kicking boots on that day we would have had a great chance of winning. My opinion is that we are going through the same transition that we did in 2002 and I expect a very good performance away in NZ and Aus this summer.

So to conclude. Am I 100% happy with what we've acheived and how EOS has handled the Irish team? Of course not. However I'm not so unhappy that I'm not willing to give him this season to show us what he can do. He's not going to leave us in any serious predicement. The age profile of the squad is good, our lineout is solid and our scrum is as good as it's going to get. So what's the harm in seeing how he gets on? If we get to where I think he's going with this team we're in for a very exciting couple of years.

Flash Gordon · Post by **Flash Gordon** » February 15th, 2006, 6:09 pm

CM wrote:
We've had 11 or 12 genuine thumpings
Ah come on. 11 or 12?

2002 England 45-11
2002 France 44-5
2002 NZ 40-8
2003 France 43-21
2003 England 42-6
2003 Australia 45-16
2004 France 35-17
2004 RSA 31-17
2005 Australia 30-14
2005 Wales 32-20
2005 All Blacks 45-7
2005 France 43-31

12 comprehensive defeats, most of them totally humiliating, that's in the space of 3 years. We were told when Eddie came on board that those kind of days were gone. They clearly weren't/aren't.

CM · Post by CM » February 15th, 2006, 6:17 pm

Some of those aren't comprehensive and some ignore circumstances and how we actually got on in those games.

I don't remember Eddie ever promising us we wouldn't get beaten. He said he was trying to build a team that would play consistently well. Sure we haven't done that brilliantly and that's why I said I wasn't 100% happy but everyone assumes that we are much better than we actually are. Gatland had a better squad because he had a stronger pack and a younger, fresher backline. He still managed to lose at home to Wales having just beaten France in Paris and also to lose to Scotland, badly, despite being far better on paper. Against the ABs we still conceded 6 tries, not being able to defend a big lead because Gatland refused to hire a defensive coach while against England we won largely because England used the same calls as the Lions making it easy for MOK and others to clean up.

What I do remember about when Eddie took over is the initial big defeats followed by some very impressive performances. But we still suffered due to injuries. Only a handful of those defeats had our 1st choice team playing. Regardless of any excuses all the rest of my post above stands. I'm willing to give EOS this season to see where he goes. I honestly don't think he's doing any harm and with decent structures below him it won't be hard for a new coach to take over and be a success if Eddie isn't.

thecoolfreak · Post by **thecoolfreak** » February 15th, 2006, 6:37 pm

I agree with CM. Eddie should stay. If he was to go we end up going through a transition period of a year or two and we would be back to having no chance in the WC.

I am confident, that if Eddie stays in charge thing well only start to improve, and lets not forget that we have a graet chance of winning the championship this year.

Flash Gordon · Post by **Flash Gordon** » February 15th, 2006, 6:46 pm

Sorry, which one's aren't comprehensive????

Second up, we were told that we wouldn't have hammerings anymore - I distinctly remember the press conference where it was said and there was reference made to the All Blacks game - a game we were 20 minutes from winning.

As for transition, i keep being told how the team are in transition now.....so don't really get that point. Recall, we are in a group with France (at home) who humiliated us in the last world cup and an up and coming Puma's team - who we robbed of qualification in the last RWC.....the consequences of not getting out of that group are away trips to Siberia and Georgia......

thecoolfreak · Post by **thecoolfreak** » February 15th, 2006, 6:53 pm

We will get out of the group though. Mark my words, we are on the way up!

CM · Post by CM » February 15th, 2006, 6:56 pm

Flash

12 point defeats are not hammerings.

As I've said at least twice on this thread already, I'm happy to see where this is going. The past is the past. Whether we should have got a new coach at the beginning of the season, I don't know. There's not a huge amount of decent coaches out there and there was no point changing just for the sake of changing. It would have to have been the right coach too. Anyway, if you're not willing to give Ireland a chance in this championship then that's your choice but if you do have access to any of the players please don't convey these thoughts. The players need the country behind them, not against them, and it seems that the team is geting damaged by all this anti-EOS stuff. It's not productive at the moment and I seriously believe that if we get to where I think we're very close to going then it'll be an impressive sight to behold.

If you have problems with EOS being in charge, write the IRFU and ask them why they gave him such a long contract. Why EOS should take all this flack for going about his business the way he always has I don't know. Anyway, I'm going to enjoy the highs and lows of the next month, whatever they be. After that we can take stock.

deco · Post by **deco** » February 15th, 2006, 8:05 pm

I agree with CM. Eddie should stay. If he was to go we end up going through a transition period of a year or two and we would be back to having no chance in the WC.

I am confident, that if Eddie stays in charge thing well only start to improve, and lets not forget that we have a graet chance of winning the championship this year.

I agree that Eddie should stay...but only if he gets a BRAIN TRANSPLANT. Despite the fact that he has had probably the most talented Ireland squad ever he has consistantly underachieved.

And how exactly have we a great chance of winning the championship??? two words: TRY DIFFERENCE

thecoolfreak · Post by **thecoolfreak** » February 15th, 2006, 8:09 pm

And how exactly have we a great chance of winning the championship??? two words: TRY DIFFERENCE

If France beat England and we beat England then we will most likely finish top. Our points difference is not that far behind France at the moment, so it'll depend on how we do against Wales

Flash Gordon · Post by **Flash Gordon** » February 15th, 2006, 8:15 pm

thecoofreak wrote:We will get out of the group though. Mark my words, we are on the way up!

Evidenced by our last few games:
1. Lost to France at home
2. Lost to Wales away
3. Humiliated by the Blacks
4. Beaten by the worst Oz team in living memory
5. dominated in parts by Romania
6. Won a game because the ref was blind against Italy
7. Hammered by France

I'm struggling to understand your rationale here Coofreak......

harryp · Post by **harryp** » February 15th, 2006, 9:40 pm

REFLECTIONS ON THE PARIS PERFORMANCE - EDDIE O'SULLIVAN

"There were a number of phenomenal performances by some of the players in Paris. The work rate of some of the forwards was astronomical.

"People who got criticised, the likes of John Hayes - he had a monster of a game (he hit 37 rucks). People should go back and watch the video, I thought he had a fine game and the same applies to Denis Leamy and David Wallace.

"Leamy was involved in 28 contacts - that's off the Richter scale in a game of Test rugby, 14 or 15 would be the norm. Wallace hit 27 rucks and put in 14 tackles. (Simon) Easterby hit 33 rucks."

"(Replying to a question that Simon Easterby is seen by some critics as having been anonymous in recent games, O'Sullivan said) That's nonsense in my view. People claim I have a bias towards Simon Easterby because he played in under-age teams that I coached, but if that was the case, it would apply to a number of others as well.

"Simon Easterby is one of the most respected back rows in world rugby. He proved that on the Lions tour and he's a world class tail-of-the-line jumper. The suggestion that we go into a Test match without a third lineout jumper defies logic."

What counts as hitting a ruck, and what counts as a Tackle these days? For that matter, who did the counting?

Looks like he's made his decision for the rest of the 6 nations.

Leinsterman · Post by **Leinsterman** » February 15th, 2006, 9:52 pm

According to the official stats Nyanga made the most tackles - 17!!!!!

He is probably referring to the total number of tackles Wallace made, i.e. secondary tackles (second person to nail the player and drag them to the ground, blocks etc) - not just "first up" tackles. It's still a high number and I think Wallace had an excellent game <can't believe I said that>

Easterby wasn't used that much in the lineout though - so I'm not sure what Eddie is on about there.

Huge amount of work put in by Hayes however, although when he says "hit rucks", does he mean "stand there with his arm in the air"?

Anyhoo - time to look ahead to the Wales game and even if people won't get behind O'Sullivan, let's at least get behind the guys in the green jerseys.... it's them we're cheering on, not Eddie!

harryp · Post by **harryp** » February 15th, 2006, 9:55 pm

Thought it sounded a bit much alright. Pillars must count as rucks now??

Mind you, this season we have queues to be the pillars.

Leinsterman · Post by **Leinsterman** » February 15th, 2006, 10:01 pm

harryp wrote:Thought it sounded a bit much alright. Pillars must count as rucks now??

Exactly the same thought went through my head....... still, at least he actually made it to that many of them. Must be in decent shape, although we did punch through their forwards quite a bit and he doesn't carry the ball a lot so he didn't have to leg it from one side of the field to the other..

harryp · Post by **harryp** » February 15th, 2006, 10:07 pm

Leinsterman wrote:
harryp wrote:Thought it sounded a bit much alright. Pillars must count as rucks now??
Exactly the same thought went through my head....... still, at least he actually made it to that many of them. Must be in decent shape, although we did punch through their forwards quite a bit and he doesn't carry the ball a lot so he didn't have to leg it from one side of the field to the other..

I wasn't actually that disappointed with the front row. Set Pieces aside I think the 2 props did a huge amount of work in the tight.

CM · Post by CM » February 16th, 2006, 12:11 am

harryp wrote:Thought it sounded a bit much alright. Pillars must count as rucks now??

Mind you, this season we have queues to be the pillars.

There were 100 rucks. So that's still only 40% of them.