RWC 2023: Ireland

[enby]

Brexit is the problem we face.

Certainly if the border is not a "soft" one that will be a difficulty. I can't help thinking that the currency divide is a greater drawback as visiting fans will have to endure all of the hassles of currency exchange if their team has matches in both jurisdictions. Still all such concerns will be academic unless Casement Park is sorted out pretty dam sharp. The bid is a non-runner if it doesn't encompass a 40,000 stadium in Norn Iron

[arsebiscuits1]

14 May – 15 June 2015 Unions submit an expression of interest
3 July 2015 World Rugby confirms bidders
May 2016 World Rugby releases tender documentation
June 2016 Deadline for unions to confirm their intent to tender a bid
May 2017 Host for the 2023 Rugby World Cup is announced

I'm afraid you're mistaken!

http://www.worldrugby.org/news/194439

Can't trust those Wikipedia people!

[rooster]

Brexit is the problem we face.

Certainly if the border is not a "soft" one that will be a difficulty. I can't help thinking that the currency divide is a greater drawback as visiting fans will have to endure all of the hassles of currency exchange if their team has matches in both jurisdictions. Still all such concerns will be academic unless Casement Park is sorted out pretty dam sharp. The bid is a non-runner if it doesn't encompass a 40,000 stadium in Norn Iron

Currency is not a problem as most people just use cards these days, a deeper problem could be potentially visas and work permits as a lot of the security staff in major events work both sides of the border , then there is vat on tickets accounting and everything else that no one actually knows what way it will work.
If World Rugby ask questions then no one will be able to answer and they may just take the view to scrap Ireland as a venue to remove all the uncertainty

[simonokeeffe]

Brexit is the problem we face.

Certainly if the border is not a "soft" one that will be a difficulty. I can't help thinking that the currency divide is a greater drawback as visiting fans will have to endure all of the hassles of currency exchange if their team has matches in both jurisdictions. Still all such concerns will be academic unless Casement Park is sorted out pretty dam sharp. The bid is a non-runner if it doesn't encompass a 40,000 stadium in Norn Iron

most of them will be coming from countries that use sterling or the euro already

even a lot of the SH fans will be UK based

[fourthirtythree]

Certainly if the border is not a "soft" one that will be a difficulty. I can't help thinking that the currency divide is a greater drawback as visiting fans will have to endure all of the hassles of currency exchange if their team has matches in both jurisdictions. Still all such concerns will be academic unless Casement Park is sorted out pretty dam sharp. The bid is a non-runner if it doesn't encompass a 40,000 stadium in Norn Iron

Currency is not a problem as most people just use cards these days, a deeper problem could be potentially visas and work permits as a lot of the security staff in major events work both sides of the border , then there is vat on tickets accounting and everything else that no one actually knows what way it will work.
If World Rugby ask questions then no one will be able to answer and they may just take the view to scrap Ireland as a venue to remove all the uncertainty

Having a bid when we don't know how travel will work inside the bid zone means, I think, that we don't have a realistic bid at all. Were I World Rugby I'd ask the travel and work questions first. Britain has not said how that is going to work nor made any solid suggestions, Ireland has no framework to negotiate on.

Bid looks dead to me. Seriously: do New Zealanders (or SA or Aus etc.) need a visa for Ireland and one for Northern Ireland? Do Italians and French need one for NI? Do Welsh, English, Scottish and Northern Ireland need something to come to Ireland?

It's a clusterfuck that you couldn't touch or associate yourself with on the assumption that it will work itself out somehow.

[rooster]

Certainly if the border is not a "soft" one that will be a difficulty. I can't help thinking that the currency divide is a greater drawback as visiting fans will have to endure all of the hassles of currency exchange if their team has matches in both jurisdictions. Still all such concerns will be academic unless Casement Park is sorted out pretty dam sharp. The bid is a non-runner if it doesn't encompass a 40,000 stadium in Norn Iron

Currency is not a problem as most people just use cards these days, a deeper problem could be potentially visas and work permits as a lot of the security staff in major events work both sides of the border , then there is vat on tickets accounting and everything else that no one actually knows what way it will work.
If World Rugby ask questions then no one will be able to answer and they may just take the view to scrap Ireland as a venue to remove all the uncertainty

Having a bid when we don't know how travel will work inside the bid zone means, I think, that we don't have a realistic bid at all. Were I World Rugby I'd ask the travel and work questions first. Britain has not said how that is going to work nor made any solid suggestions, Ireland has no framework to negotiate on.

Bid looks dead to me. Seriously: do New Zealanders (or SA or Aus etc.) need a visa for Ireland and one for Northern Ireland? Do Italians and French need one for NI? Do Welsh, English, Scottish and Northern Ireland need something to come to Ireland?

It's a clusterfuck that you couldn't touch or associate yourself with on the assumption that it will work itself out somehow.

You know it is a real clusterfuck when the smugglers can't even plan ahead !

[Dave Cahill]

Have to agree with 433, unless we can say with certainty what the Brexit position will be in 2023 our bid is dead.

[rooster]

Have to agree with 433, unless we can say with certainty what the Brexit position will be in 2023 our bid is dead.

Bid is probably dead then as UK government don't even seem to know what they are doing, they claim to be triggering article 50 start of next year but have no idea under what terms they will be negotiating.
We will either be in or out by 2023 but whether it is right out or half out is anyone's guess.

[FLIP]

Surely the CTA is what is important here and as such that's got nothing to do with the EU?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area

[Dave Cahill]

This is a good example of the uncertainty we face. Its one thing for two 'non-aligned' states to create a common travel area, its a similar thing for two, for want of a better phrase, federal states, within a larger federation to create one. Its quite different for one state in a federation and another external to it to create one. The border between Ireland and the UK is no longer an internal border, its not even the border between Ireland and the UK anymore, its the border between the EU and the UK, and thats a whole different bag of spanners. Or it may not be, we don't know.

[FLIP]

Yeah, but the uncertainty is very little considering the following is the view of those in the know:

• The overall common travel area principle would probably continue to be supported by the two states.
• It would probably be thought necessary to make specific adjustments to common travel area arrangements, e.g. to take account of persons with EU free movement rights in the Republic of Ireland, or to cater for international protection applicants
• There could be pressure for wider changes to common travel area arrangements, such as the application of immigration control to air and sea travel from the Republic of Ireland to the UK, or rights of travel. These might lead on to consideration of a more comprehensive agreement between the two states.
• It would be necessary to resolve the position of Irish citizens within UK immigration law and nationality law.
• A wider questioning of the special status of Irish citizens in the UK, including their political rights, is also a possibility.

As sourced from here: https://www.freemovement.org.uk/brexit- ... the-irish/

Brexit, if anything, strengthens Ireland's position as it is more likely rugby's primary market (the UK) will have easier travel requirements to Ireland under the CTA than they will to France as part of the Schengen Area.

[Dave Cahill]

Its not the view of "those in the know" - its the view of a guy in one Chamber who appears to have ignored the realpolitik of the Brexit as voted for by the Welsh and English. They specifically DON'T want to remain in the EEA, they specifically DON'T want free movement of people and without those principles the CTA is doomed. There will be no bilateral agreements between any individual EU state and the UK regarding the movement of goods, services or people.


This is where the uncertaintly lies. If the May government follows the will of the people, the UK will exit the EU, it will also leave the EEA as remaining a member will be incompatible with wishes of the UK electorate. This will automatically shut down the CTA and prevent its re-establishment. As the border between Ireland and NI will be the only land border between the EU and the UK it will be a hard border with all the customs, security and visa requirements that go with it.

It might not try to go the whole hog though, it might try to stay in the EEA for example, but that would mean that the UK electorate would still have all the things they hated about the EU - free movement of people, goods, services, not being allowed be racists, and none of the benefits - structural funds and dutch women. UKGov would lose all credibility internationally and be doomed domestically, but the CTA would survive and they would retain access to the single market.

[FLIP]

This will automatically shut down the CTA and prevent its re-establishment.

As the CTA is an agreement between two nations preceding EU membership, no it wouldn't.

[Dave Cahill]

This will automatically shut down the CTA and prevent its re-establishment.

As the CTA is an agreement between two nations preceding EU membership, no it wouldn't.

No it isn't, in its current incarnation it dates from 2010 or something. Even it was though, circumstances have changed radically in the near century since its original inception. It was an arrangement between peers (and important as such, it was one of our first such agreements). Be it as members of the commonwealth (no matter how unwilling in one case) or later as two unencumbered states or later still as two EU states. That is no longer the case. The circumstances that were the framework for the agreement to be built upon have changed beyond the breadth of the agreement.

[rooster]

Feck it I might have to dig a tunnel at this rate, it's a real worry though as I doubt our clowns will have much say in the end result and I cross the border 5 or 6 times a week so have real idea how all will work.
Interesting also when you factor in having dual passports and even tax codes North and South, there are a lot of unknowns which leads us back round to how would a decision be made on the RWC bid with so much uncertainty

[FLIP]

This will automatically shut down the CTA and prevent its re-establishment.

As the CTA is an agreement between two nations preceding EU membership, no it wouldn't.

No it isn't, in its current incarnation it dates from 2010 or something. Even it was though, circumstances have changed radically in the near century since its original inception. It was an arrangement between peers (and important as such, it was one of our first such agreements). Be it as members of the commonwealth (no matter how unwilling in one case) or later as two unencumbered states or later still as two EU states. That is no longer the case. The circumstances that were the framework for the agreement to be built upon have changed beyond the breadth of the agreement.

Given that the agreement has existed with every combination of both countries in and out of the EU, through the troubles, there's absolutely no reason for it not to continue given that Ireland remains outside of the Schengen Area. Joining it would require massive changes to legislation and a reduction in Ireland's border controls to Europe for which there is no appetite. Stop making a mountain out of a molehill and accept that for once you might not be right.

[Dave Cahill]

Given that the agreement has existed with every combination of both countries in and out of the EU, through the troubles, there's absolutely no reason for it not to continue given that Ireland remains outside of the Schengen Area. Joining it would require massive changes to legislation and a reduction in Ireland's border controls to Europe for which there is no appetite. Stop making a mountain out of a molehill and accept that for once you might not be right.

Except for the combination that we will face once the UK exits the EU, where one country is outside the EU and the other a member. This is the first time we will face this particular combination and this is the difference, this is what kills the CTA. We are part of a Federation, virtually a Federal State, that has specific rules about how member states interact with external states, and extremely specific rules about how those external states are allowed access the Union. Unless the UK follows the Norwegian route post exit, then any agreement that allows them unhindered access to the EU is done - its not about being right or wrong, its simply how it is and it is a huge problem, not just for the Irish RWC bid, but for huge swathes of Irish life. This is K2 - probably the biggest threat to the integrity of the state since the Emergency.

It is also a massive opportunity too, but thats for another thread.

[Dave Cahill]

This is quite a good read on the subject - it goes into good depth on the various options particularly in connection to our relationship with themmuns

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm? ... id=2797948

[neiliog93]

Italy have withdrawn their bid for the 2023 RWC following Rome's withdrawal from the 2024 Olympics bidding process:

https://www.thelocal.it/20160929/italy- ... -world-cup

With Argentina not bidding that leaves Ireland, France and South Africa. New Zealand proved small nations can do it, and France had it as recently as 2007. South Africa are the main threat (let's hope their sports authorities actually do end up blocking their bid). But South Africa have already hosted a RWC, albeit a while back in '95 now. We're in with a great chance.

[fourthirtythree]

I'll have a look at that paper later on today Dave.

We can argue at great length about what will happen but the truth is we don't know yet. If you use one word (and it not be clusterfuck) to describe the situation I think it would be "uncertainty": and that word is the enemy of plans and organisation. If you were world rugby could you, in all conscience, allow Ireland's bid to succeed?

I mean if you were the IOC, no problem so long as the baksheesh/fruit and flowers was sufficient, but I don't think rugby has got the infection yet.