RWC 2023: Ireland

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Re: RWC 2023: Ireland

Postby TerenureJim » December 12th, 2011, 4:58 pm

sheepshagger wrote:Our cost base would need to come down considerably before we'd want to bid for the RWC, couldn't have sky high ticket prices to pay for it.

We are not short of hotel accommodation anyway!!


See I don't think we'd have the huge outlay that would lead to the requirement to have high ticket prices. NZ have actually already started reaping the benefits, not sure if they ever made a loss on the competition at all due to tourists and increased spend in the economy.

Honestly if you were to do the figures on how much a HEC game in Lansdowne / RDS and Thomund bring into the local economy as well as the six nations and AI's in a regular season you'd probably still be under the amount of spend we'd have from people coming in for games. Added to the fact we're a much easier destination to access for all bar Aus and NZ (and there's enough of them in Europe to make up those numbers) then we're perfectly placed.

The only thing we need to do is develop stadiums, and not even that many, in conjunction with the GAA of course. Does anyone think that the GAA would object to getting funding for two - three state of the art all seater stadia just so they could be used for two months during September/October when they'd probably be empty anyways?
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Re: RWC 2023: Ireland

Postby RavenhillRaider » December 12th, 2011, 5:04 pm

Has someone at the independent been reading this thread?

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/rwc-may-be-a-silver-lining-for-our-cloud-2960421.html

RWC may be a silver lining for our cloud
When the dust had settled on this year's Rugby World Cup, New Zealand was left to count the cost of the tournament.

The country spent a fortune for the privilege of hosting the event. The International Rugby Board made a cool €90-odd million -- made up of the revenue from broadcasting rights and licence fees, and a large chunk of hello money from the host nation.

All in all, it is reckoned that the New Zealand taxpayer forked out over €300m on the World Cup, including €85m to the IRB, and a further €200m to upgrade stadia and facilities.

When a country indulges in this level of spending it does so because it believes there will be a return which will more than justify the expenditure and initially New Zealand believed its economy would reap the benefits. One report even suggested the tournament could deliver up to €450m in tourist spending with further gains over time.

Ultimately, these projections didn't even come close to stacking up. Despite revenue from ticket sales exceeding €150m, NZRU still lost €20m. This loss was almost entirely underwritten by the government, which itself was left bloodied by the lack of consumer spending during the event, reportedly €100m -- or less than a quarter of what had been predicted.

So was it all worth it? Prime Minister John Key said it was "money well spent" while Martin Snedden, CEO of RWC 2011, described it as "a great investment". Snedden added: "The profile I think that we received overseas, the quality of the profile, the fact that it was so overwhelmingly positive about New Zealand and our people, I am certain that it is well worthwhile."

Perhaps for the notoriously rugby-mad New Zealanders just seeing Richie McCaw cradle the Webb Ellis Cup was enough to justify the vast spending but, for number crunchers, it makes less sense in a country which is operating a deficit.

Fast forward then to last week, and Minister Leo Varadkar's declaration that "it would be great to host a major tournament like the Rugby World Cup in 2023".

Putting Ireland forward to host the event is not as outlandish as it might first seem. In the short history of the tournament, a clear pattern has emerged showing that when it is held in the northern hemisphere it is infinitely more profitable than when it is staged in the southern hemisphere. The IRB may have taken €90m this year, but four years earlier it took €133m home from France.

The reasons for this are simple. Rugby's biggest market is Europe. Television rights are significantly more valuable here than Down Under because the audience is bigger and start times for games can be set to attract the largest possible viewership without having to worry about a 12-hour time difference. There is also far greater potential to sell corporate packages and match tickets, neither of which matched expectations in New Zealand.

The bottom line is that 70 per cent of rugby's revenue is generated in Europe.

The next issue is the logistics and the GAA would have to be fully on board to pull this off. Ireland already has more hotel beds and a better road infrastructure and, with the GAA's involvement, it would have more stadia than New Zealand.

Crucially, there would also be easier access for visitors from the principal rugby-playing nations. The figures for the recent World Cup show that 133,200 visitors arrived in New Zealand during the tournament, a figure which could be easily surpassed here given Ireland's proximity to the well-supported Six Nations teams, as well as easy access from countries like South Africa and the USA.

With the GAA due to revamp Casement Park and Páirc uí Chaoimh, it is conceivable that the tournament could be staged in, say, six cities and ten venues: Lansdowne Road, the RDS and Croke Park in Dublin; Ravenhill and Casement Park in Belfast; Thomond Park and the Gaelic Grounds in Limerick, The Sportsground in Galway, Nowlan Park in Kilkenny and Páirc uí Chaoimh in Cork. Where New Zealand had to spend €200m upgrading its venues, Ireland would only be required to spend a fraction of that.

All of which leaves us with the amount of money the government would be expected to cough up. Hard decisions do not have to be taken yet as there are still three years to figure out if this is something the country can afford.

It is always difficult before the fact to do anything other than speculate about the return that can be generated by something like this. The idea of state-sponsored sports events is nothing new to this country. The Ryder Cup, Solheim Cup and the Volvo Ocean Race -- which returns to Galway again next summer -- all required significant financial commitments from the government. The hope is that the return on this investment makes it all worthwhile -- initially through a direct boost to the economy from the event itself and, longer term, through bringing the country to a broad international audience.

The government forked out almost €10m to attract the Solheim Cup and the Volvo Ocean Race, but the Ryder Cup was the real success story, generating an estimated €143m for the economy and attracting up to 90,000 visitors.

According to the Federation of Irish Sport, an estimated 143,000 golfers visit Ireland each year, creating an economic dividend of €110m, visiting cyclists spend €114m, hikers and walkers €494m and anglers €132m. There is also research in the UK which shows that while a tourist spends €500 per trip, a 'sports' tourist spends €900 per trip.

Sports tourism is a niche market, but one which now has an estimated global worth of €600bn. The Rugby World Cup is a growing event which has huge revenue-making potential so the question is, what is a slice of that pie worth to Ireland?
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Re: RWC 2023: Ireland

Postby Apocrypha » December 12th, 2011, 5:11 pm

I just cannot see the GAA boys playing ball, given that Munster/Leinster are really starting to make inroads in their respective regions...
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Re: RWC 2023: Ireland

Postby TerenureJim » December 12th, 2011, 5:33 pm

Yeah I think the best way to tot up the benefits would be to take a full season's rugby taking's and spending in pubs and on travel hotels etc for people who attend games in this country not to look at the Ryder cup as the RWC takes over a month not a few days over a long weekend and games would spread throughout the country. Honestly imagine how much tax revenue the government would take in when each six nations weekend is supposed to generate about €50m in spend. So you can multiply that by oh maybe 10 or more given that each weekend during a RWC will see several games between big teams selling out venues. The Welsh, English, Scots, French would pack the hotels not to mention Aussies, Kiwis, South Africans.

I wish I was in college and could write a thesis on the cost/bebefit analysis to Ireland of hosting the RWC 2023 as it'd be facinating research and could be such a discussion piece.

Also something that hasn't been mentioned is that incrementally by hosting a RWC tournament we would be developing facilities which would probably make it not unlikely that with a little more investment post RWC 2023 we could make a tilt at a realistic Euro Champs joint bid
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Re: RWC 2023: Ireland

Postby Cianostays » December 12th, 2011, 5:36 pm

Apocrypha wrote:I just cannot see the GAA boys playing ball, given that Munster/Leinster are really starting to make inroads in their respective regions...


Given that the tournament would be held during the off season for county stadia, if the financial package were right, I'd say the GAA would be very much on board.
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Re: RWC 2023: Ireland

Postby Broken Wing » December 12th, 2011, 5:39 pm

The GAA are missing the money that the IRFU and FAI paid out for the use of Croke Park. I have no doubt they could be persuaded to hire out a few of their grounds for a one off event like this.
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Re: RWC 2023: Ireland

Postby TerenureJim » December 12th, 2011, 5:44 pm

The GAA would probably be one of the main benificieries as if development of new or existing stadia was carried out well the stadia would be there for future use to replace some of the older grounds. I'd say improved facilities at stadia would increase local participation in attending games.
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Re: RWC 2023: Ireland

Postby Apocrypha » December 12th, 2011, 5:44 pm

Cianostays wrote:
Apocrypha wrote:I just cannot see the GAA boys playing ball, given that Munster/Leinster are really starting to make inroads in their respective regions...


Given that the tournament would be held during the off season for county stadia, if the financial package were right, I'd say the GAA would be very much on board.


As with cricket, there doesn't really seem to be a GAA off season anymore.
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Re: RWC 2023: Ireland

Postby Broken Wing » December 12th, 2011, 5:56 pm

There definitely is when it comes to the major venues.
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Re: RWC 2023: Ireland

Postby Ultra Vires » January 11th, 2012, 12:12 am

Our best and only hope really would be for a joint Celtic nations bid with Scotland and Wales because the IRB would want at least 3 or 4 big capacity world class stadiums. I'm thinking Croker, Aviva, Millenium, Murrayfield and Hampden. All the other grounds being touted in Ireland are absolutely nowhere near international standard. The county GAA grounds are dumps and anyone who thinks they're close to usable hasn't a clue about what is required in modern stadia. Thomond Park is close to decent standard but would also need work. If it cost New Zealand €200m to upgrade it's stadia it would cost double that here as everything is more expensive. Not to mention how impossible it would be to get the IMF to sign off on it. They're not Interested in any potential feel good factor, only hard numbers matter to them, and most big tournaments lose money. Joint bid is the way to go. That way we'd only need to provide maybe 4 stadia and we have 2 already. Nice and simple boys.
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Re: RWC 2023: Ireland

Postby TerenureJim » January 11th, 2012, 1:30 am

Feck a joint bid. With minimal investment in decent stadia or upgrades for the GAA, and bearing in mind the IMF will be gone in 2013, we can do this on our own and have a lasting legacy of great sporting facilities for use by the multitude of people who enjoy field sports in this country. Construction and land costs are greatly reduced from what they were and tourism spend for any HEC or international rugby match can very clearly be seen on a balance sheet as being a seriously good return for government/national investment in comparison to other cultural funding. Besides with Croker, Lansdowne, RDS, Donnybrook/Tallaght for small games Dublin alone has plenty of capacity. TP and Gaelic Grounds in Limerick would be fantastic. In Belfast you'd have the new Ravenhill and new Casement and or Windsor plus I'm sure the UK government might want Derry in on the action so possible new stadium there. Throw in a refurbished Musgrave in Cork along with the long planned Parc Ui Caoimhe refurb to get Cork on board and then maybe a municipal stadium in Galway of 20k-25k with temporary increase to approx 30k and you'd be laughing. I'm sure places like Kerry, Sligo, Athlone would probably want to get on board as well if this became a reality.

Like I say feck a joint bid if NZ can do it we sure can, and do it better.
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Re: RWC 2023: Ireland

Postby Rogocoko » January 11th, 2012, 3:17 pm

Ultra Vires wrote:Our best and only hope really would be for a joint Celtic nations bid with Scotland and Wales because the IRB would want at least 3 or 4 big capacity world class stadiums. I'm thinking Croker, Aviva, Millenium, Murrayfield and Hampden. All the other grounds being touted in Ireland are absolutely nowhere near international standard. The county GAA grounds are dumps and anyone who thinks they're close to usable hasn't a clue about what is required in modern stadia. Thomond Park is close to decent standard but would also need work. If it cost New Zealand €200m to upgrade it's stadia it would cost double that here as everything is more expensive. Not to mention how impossible it would be to get the IMF to sign off on it. They're not Interested in any potential feel good factor, only hard numbers matter to them, and most big tournaments lose money. Joint bid is the way to go. That way we'd only need to provide maybe 4 stadia and we have 2 already. Nice and simple boys.


Having been to the world cup in New Zealand.... none of the stadiums (with the exception of the Westpac in Wellington) were close to world class. Eden park had temporary stands ala RDS and the stadium in Rotorua only had one stand... the rest being a grass bank.

With the GAA involved ireland could easily stage a world cup... the only problem i would see is the size of the country and potential stadia all being very close to each other, eg. Lansdowne, croker, RDS & parnell park.
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Re: RWC 2023: Ireland

Postby Lar » January 11th, 2012, 3:26 pm

Rogocoko wrote: the only problem i would see is the size of the country and potential stadia all being very close to each other, eg. Lansdowne, croker, RDS & parnell park.


I think the size of Ireland is a major advantage not a disadvantage.

Its not as if we don't have the hotel beds or the infrastructure either now.
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Re: RWC 2023: Ireland

Postby Rogocoko » January 11th, 2012, 7:23 pm

Lar wrote:
Rogocoko wrote: the only problem i would see is the size of the country and potential stadia all being very close to each other, eg. Lansdowne, croker, RDS & parnell park.


I think the size of Ireland is a major advantage not a disadvantage.

Its not as if we don't have the hotel beds or the infrastructure either now.


True, I just think that games in the capital and other places with more than one venue would need to be spaced out adequately to ensure we don't have any infrastructure issues.
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Re: RWC 2023: Ireland

Postby ronk » January 11th, 2012, 7:42 pm

What we'd need to be able to put in a viable bid (which still might not win)

1 a joint use stadium in Belfast, paid for mostly by British taxpayers
2 a commitment from hotels not to gouge. And strong business support.
3 a favourable rental agreement with the GAA for Croke Park. The more we pay, the bigger the loss.
4 an agreement of the Welsh, Scottish etc unions to pay us (well) to host pool games and support our bid.
5 government underwriting.
6 some sort of long distance funding from 10 year ticket holders.
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Re: RWC 2023: Ireland

Postby Degz » January 11th, 2012, 10:25 pm

ronk wrote:What we'd need to be able to put in a viable bid (which still might not win)

1 a joint use stadium in Belfast, paid for mostly by British taxpayers
2 a commitment from hotels not to gouge. And strong business support.
3 a favourable rental agreement with the GAA for Croke Park. The more we pay, the bigger the loss.
4 an agreement of the Welsh, Scottish etc unions to pay us (well) to host pool games and support our bid.
5 government underwriting.
6 some sort of long distance funding from 10 year ticket holders.


1) give them a semi-final, that should swing it.
2) pass a bye-law that hotels may only increase to the equivalent of their previous bank-holiday rate
3) old ticket prices for the games will more than cover the rental (WC tickets would probably be more for big games), which should be more than enough to cover rent.
4) Let's hope we can do it on our own.
5) Problem
6) In the grand scheme of hosting a world cup, this income would be inconsequental really.
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Re: RWC 2023: Ireland

Postby Fireworks » January 12th, 2012, 2:42 pm

I agree that we can and should do this on our own. We have the resources if we can get quiet a number of people to play ball. If the IRFU the GAA and the Gov can agree that this would be good for the country then it can be done. The planning needs to start now because there will be lots of local GAA issues over renovating their stadiums so that will have to be done over a number of years. Think of it, what real rugby fan on the planet would not want to come to Ireland for a RWC.

Our current economic situation is just that "current". We will come out of it and projects like this will help to speed up that process.

The imortal "somebody" needs to do something about this soon. I am busy getting a new business started but I can help make the tea if that will help.
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Re: RWC 2023: Ireland

Postby ronk » January 12th, 2012, 5:30 pm

Degz wrote:
ronk wrote:What we'd need to be able to put in a viable bid (which still might not win)

1 a joint use stadium in Belfast, paid for mostly by British taxpayers
2 a commitment from hotels not to gouge. And strong business support.
3 a favourable rental agreement with the GAA for Croke Park. The more we pay, the bigger the loss.
4 an agreement of the Welsh, Scottish etc unions to pay us (well) to host pool games and support our bid.
5 government underwriting.
6 some sort of long distance funding from 10 year ticket holders.


1) give them a semi-final, that should swing it.
2) pass a bye-law that hotels may only increase to the equivalent of their previous bank-holiday rate
3) old ticket prices for the games will more than cover the rental (WC tickets would probably be more for big games), which should be more than enough to cover rent.
4) Let's hope we can do it on our own.
5) Problem
6) In the grand scheme of hosting a world cup, this income would be inconsequental really.


Rent was so high in Croke Park that the IRFU makes more money from games in the Aviva. Covering the rent isn't the issue, the issue is being able to pay for much of the rest of the tournament expenses. Sure the GAA would agree if we threw money at them, but it has to be worth it for the IRFU too. We'd need them to lower their price rather than be greedy about it.

A few pool matches in Wales and Scotland could be a big earner without the expense of new stadia. Tourism revenue would be down, but it would also change the supply-demand dynamic with tickets. An issue is that they could oppose our World Cup bid unless we give them matches.

I don't mean 10 year tickets per say, but this is an influential proportion of the ticket income and how much they'd be contributing for World Cup tickets could be hugely important. If they were interested en mass in purchasing their tickets at a premium price the funding maths starts to look at lot easier. Take Lansdowne Road, for example: the premium section is 10,000 if long term ticket holders went in for €1000 tickets for a final, that's €10m. The other 40k seats at €250 each (average) would raise €10m. Get the same again from boxes and in stadium sponsors, it's looking a bit better. But you'd really want to be confident that the money is either there or on its way so you're going to want to know that the long term ticket holders are onboard.
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Re: RWC 2023: Ireland

Postby CiaranIrl » January 12th, 2012, 5:46 pm

ronk wrote:
Degz wrote:
ronk wrote:What we'd need to be able to put in a viable bid (which still might not win)

1 a joint use stadium in Belfast, paid for mostly by British taxpayers
2 a commitment from hotels not to gouge. And strong business support.
3 a favourable rental agreement with the GAA for Croke Park. The more we pay, the bigger the loss.
4 an agreement of the Welsh, Scottish etc unions to pay us (well) to host pool games and support our bid.
5 government underwriting.
6 some sort of long distance funding from 10 year ticket holders.


1) give them a semi-final, that should swing it.
2) pass a bye-law that hotels may only increase to the equivalent of their previous bank-holiday rate
3) old ticket prices for the games will more than cover the rental (WC tickets would probably be more for big games), which should be more than enough to cover rent.
4) Let's hope we can do it on our own.
5) Problem
6) In the grand scheme of hosting a world cup, this income would be inconsequental really.


Rent was so high in Croke Park that the IRFU makes more money from games in the Aviva. Covering the rent isn't the issue, the issue is being able to pay for much of the rest of the tournament expenses. Sure the GAA would agree if we threw money at them, but it has to be worth it for the IRFU too. We'd need them to lower their price rather than be greedy about it.

A few pool matches in Wales and Scotland could be a big earner without the expense of new stadia. Tourism revenue would be down, but it would also change the supply-demand dynamic with tickets. An issue is that they could oppose our World Cup bid unless we give them matches.

I don't mean 10 year tickets per say, but this is an influential proportion of the ticket income and how much they'd be contributing for World Cup tickets could be hugely important. If they were interested en mass in purchasing their tickets at a premium price the funding maths starts to look at lot easier. Take Lansdowne Road, for example: the premium section is 10,000 if long term ticket holders went in for €1000 tickets for a final, that's €10m. The other 40k seats at €250 each (average) would raise €10m. Get the same again from boxes and in stadium sponsors, it's looking a bit better. But you'd really want to be confident that the money is either there or on its way so you're going to want to know that the long term ticket holders are onboard.


There is no way 10,000 people would pay a grand each for a ticket to the final years before it is played.
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Re: RWC 2023: Ireland

Postby Oldschool » January 23rd, 2012, 10:58 pm

Breaking with tradition, Dekko names an unchanged side from the one that beat NZ in the opening match of the tournament.
This means that ROG will start his 200th international and will have Conor Murray, who had been named on the bench, as his half back partner for the 100th time.
Meanwhile DOC will be on the bench for the 90 consecutive time and Denis Leamy, who has recovered from injured makes his 100th appearance on the bench.
John Hayes, MOD and P. Wallace have been drafted into the squad at short notice due to late withdrawals, by Frank Bulk, Bob Jumper and Tom Newman, who was due to make his debut at scrum half.
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