RWC 2023: Ireland

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Re: RWC 2023: Ireland

Postby olaf the fat » November 17th, 2017, 11:01 am

Its madly disappointing that Scotland or Wales did not vote for us. Their reasoning/excuses are feeble at best.

Revenge or doing anything that impact the Pro14 is counter productive to IRFU interests. (The Scots and the Welsh may operate like that - leave them to it).

Continually developing our game at club and international level will be sweet enough.
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Re: RWC 2023: Ireland

Postby Peg Leg » November 17th, 2017, 1:46 pm

Its the Italian vote that kills me [shakes fist at Conor (Hugh Farrelly's Italian mole) O'Shea].
The Welsh vote is understandable IMO
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RWC 2023: Ireland

Postby artaneboy » November 17th, 2017, 3:37 pm

Peg Leg wrote:Its the Italian vote that kills me [shakes fist at Conor (Hugh Farrelly's Italian mole) O'Shea].
The Welsh vote is understandable IMO

Understandable- because they’re shits- like? Or because the “reason” that they had to support their countryman on the WR Council was so compelling?


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Re: RWC 2023: Ireland

Postby Flash Gordon » November 17th, 2017, 4:31 pm

olaf the fat wrote:Its madly disappointing that Scotland or Wales did not vote for us. Their reasoning/excuses are feeble at best.

Revenge or doing anything that impact the Pro14 is counter productive to IRFU interests. (The Scots and the Welsh may operate like that - leave them to it).

Continually developing our game at club and international level will be sweet enough.


Totally agree. That being said if there was a proposal on the table for an Anglo Irish League or a European League I think we should absolutely consider it. In fact, I'd hope that the IRFU are putting together some thinking in that area.

I also think we should keep in mind that we failed the screening process when other countries are bidding in the future. NZ voted for South Africa, so basically given the criteria that favoured South Africa in the opening round, NZ doesn't get to host another world cup till they build a stack of stadia.
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Re: RWC 2023: Ireland

Postby Twist » November 17th, 2017, 4:54 pm

jimbobjoe wrote:
neill_m wrote:Given the stadia issue, suspect Ireland's only chance for a future bid is if they team up with the Welsh and the Scots.


Ireland's stadia not much different in capacity to those used by New Zealand


Also we didn’t even put forward the highest capacity stadia. We intentionally selected some mid-capacity ones so that games between minnows wouldn’t be played in front of empty stands


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Re: RWC 2023: Ireland

Postby CiaranIrl » November 17th, 2017, 5:34 pm

I think Waterford Whispers had the best answer to some of the more ludicrous comments on this thread.

France Unfairly Secure Rugby World Cup 2023 With Better, Superior Bid

A GREAT injustice was visited upon the Irish sporting community as France were unfairly awarded the right to host the 2023 Rugby World Cup, with the international governing body of rugby not even taking into account the fact that we wouldn’t like that decision at all, WWN has learned.

Unfairly weighing up the bids of France, Ireland and South Africa, and concluding that France were worthy hosts, the corrupt heads of rugby calmly assessed all bids and shockingly concluded that the best bid pitched should also be awarded the tournament.

“It’s beggar’s belief. We have a terrible transport network and have never hosted a large scale sporting event like this, we don’t have enough hotel space to meet the demand of travelling fans and yet, still, somehow if their infinite wisdom World Rugby went with the same country that just hosted Euro 2016. Gormless idiots,” confirmed one member of Ireland’s bidding team, who added now isn’t the time to ask if he personally could have done more to produce a better bid.

“Look, now’s the time for bitching and moaning about how we didn’t win, and being awfully sore losers, so we can portray ourselves in the worst possible light,” he explained, while simultaneously throwing various items out of a pram.

The awarding of the 2023 World Cup marks a dark time in the history of rugby in which superior, and all round more convincing bids are prefaced over the hurt feelings of Irish rugby supporters.

World Rugby’s failure to take into account the fact Taoiseach Leo Varadkar used the #Ireland2023 hashtag several times has been labeled scandalous by those most at fault for Ireland’s failure to produce a winning bid. The governing body’s decision to overlook the fact that South Africa’s bid was named as the outstanding bid in a 139-page evaluation report has been referred to by Ireland’s bidding team as ‘not all that important as it doesn’t fit into the narrative that we were robbed’.
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Re: RWC 2023: Ireland

Postby dropkick » November 18th, 2017, 3:45 am

artaneboy wrote:
Peg Leg wrote:Its the Italian vote that kills me [shakes fist at Conor (Hugh Farrelly's Italian mole) O'Shea].
The Welsh vote is understandable IMO

Understandable- because they’re shits- like? Or because the “reason” that they had to support their countryman on the WR Council was so compelling?



Its hard to believe they put Gareth Davies' ego as their number 1 criteria. Thats the weakest excuse I've ever heard.
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Re: RWC 2023: Ireland

Postby olaf the fat » November 20th, 2017, 10:47 am

dropkick wrote:
artaneboy wrote:
Peg Leg wrote:Its the Italian vote that kills me [shakes fist at Conor (Hugh Farrelly's Italian mole) O'Shea].
The Welsh vote is understandable IMO

Understandable- because they’re shits- like? Or because the “reason” that they had to support their countryman on the WR Council was so compelling?



Its hard to believe they put Gareth Davies' ego as their number 1 criteria. Thats the weakest excuse I've ever heard.


Whilst Gareth Davies ego is a big factor in Wales. This one was Gerald (John Halligans twin)
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Re: RWC 2023: Ireland

Postby Lar » November 20th, 2017, 4:46 pm

olaf the fat wrote:
Whilst Gareth Davies ego is a big factor in Wales. This one was Gerald (John Halligans twin)


Don't think so - this one is Gareth.
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Re: RWC 2023: Ireland

Postby olaf the fat » November 20th, 2017, 7:40 pm

I have a mental block with the other one - everytime I see the independent alliance on the news!
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Re: RWC 2023: Ireland

Postby Fireworks » November 21st, 2017, 6:32 pm

It is difficult to wish anything good for either the Welsh or Scots unions at the moment. The one thing it guarantees is that neither of them is ever going host the WC. There is a temptation to stuff them but that would not be good for us, the league or the game in general.
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Re: RWC 2023: Ireland

Postby CiaranIrl » November 21st, 2017, 9:54 pm

Just so I'm clear, in the next world cup bid that comes around where we have a vote, is there anyone at all out there that would advocate voting for what we consider being the best bid - on the basis of 'whats the best thing for rugby'?

If NZ or Australia had voted for us, would it be right to consider them traitors because they didn't vote for their fellow sanzar mates in SA?

Is it just a given that the only basis for voting in favour of a nation's bid is something along the lines of the following:

1. Who can we screw over that passed us over before?
2. Who is nearest to us geographically?
3. Who are in the same old boys club as us?
4. Who can cut a deal for us that benefits us somehow?

I'm as disappointed as the next guy, but I think the bitterness is excessive. Wales and Scotland had valid reasons to vote as they did. It would be a sorry state of affairs if the only way it could work was "vote for your mates, screw everything else.
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Re: RWC 2023: Ireland

Postby TerenureJim » November 21st, 2017, 11:40 pm

CiaranIrl wrote:Just so I'm clear, in the next world cup bid that comes around where we have a vote, is there anyone at all out there that would advocate voting for what we consider being the best bid - on the basis of 'whats the best thing for rugby'?

If NZ or Australia had voted for us, would it be right to consider them traitors because they didn't vote for their fellow sanzar mates in SA?

Is it just a given that the only basis for voting in favour of a nation's bid is something along the lines of the following:

1. Who can we screw over that passed us over before?
2. Who is nearest to us geographically?
3. Who are in the same old boys club as us?
4. Who can cut a deal for us that benefits us somehow?

I'm as disappointed as the next guy, but I think the bitterness is excessive. Wales and Scotland had valid reasons to vote as they did. It would be a sorry state of affairs if the only way it could work was "vote for your mates, screw everything else.


What was Wales' valid reason?
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RWC 2023: Ireland

Postby artaneboy » November 22nd, 2017, 12:08 am

CiaranIrl wrote:Just so I'm clear, in the next world cup bid that comes around where we have a vote, is there anyone at all out there that would advocate voting for what we consider being the best bid - on the basis of 'whats the best thing for rugby'?

If NZ or Australia had voted for us, would it be right to consider them traitors because they didn't vote for their fellow sanzar mates in SA?

Is it just a given that the only basis for voting in favour of a nation's bid is something along the lines of the following:

1. Who can we screw over that passed us over before?
2. Who is nearest to us geographically?
3. Who are in the same old boys club as us?
4. Who can cut a deal for us that benefits us somehow?

I'm as disappointed as the next guy, but I think the bitterness is excessive. Wales and Scotland had valid reasons to vote as they did. It would be a sorry state of affairs if the only way it could work was "vote for your mates, screw everything else.


Ciaran, most people here have expressed their frustration or/ and anger at the process, as much or more than the actual decision. It was obviously flawed at best and ‘stacked’ if you were to be less charitable. Most of us also have a view (subjective but sincere) that Ireland winning the bid would have been good for the sport as a whole- as well as for the country and the game here.

So we did believe, naively it transpires, that we could therefore count on the support of our Celtic League partners. While they all
three had the right not to support us, the reasons, timing and communication were respectively pathetic, inadequate and contemptuous. That’s the difference between your SANZAR example. It’s not treachery (as it definitely was with the ERC)- it’s insulting, never mind for now being foolishly shortsighted.

If we were informed early of their reasons and those reasons had been less puerile (Wales), penny pinching (Scotland) or shortsightedly opportunistic (Italy), we might have accepted them with more resignation. But they weren’t. As a result we are very disappointed and- yes, somewhat bitter. We don’t trust or wish the unions well as a result. But in my view that’s not the same as awaiting the next WRC process to inflict revenge. I remember the sinking of the ERC and now this wound. We would need to be stupid not to learn from those experiences.

So yes, our altruism may not reach the admirable level to which you aspire; I suggest we will advocate a vote based on our self interest. We certainly won’t care on the views of the Welsh, Scots or Italian unions. But that’s reasonable given what’s happened. It’s the least we or they can expect. Neither will we care “what’s best for rugby” because neither will anyone else- and our eschewing self interest won’t make a bit of difference.


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Re: RWC 2023: Ireland

Postby artaneboy » November 22nd, 2017, 12:23 am

TerenureJim wrote:
CiaranIrl wrote:Just so I'm clear, in the next world cup bid that comes around where we have a vote, is there anyone at all out there that would advocate voting for what we consider being the best bid - on the basis of 'whats the best thing for rugby'?

If NZ or Australia had voted for us, would it be right to consider them traitors because they didn't vote for their fellow sanzar mates in SA?

Is it just a given that the only basis for voting in favour of a nation's bid is something along the lines of the following:

1. Who can we screw over that passed us over before?
2. Who is nearest to us geographically?
3. Who are in the same old boys club as us?
4. Who can cut a deal for us that benefits us somehow?

I'm as disappointed as the next guy, but I think the bitterness is excessive. Wales and Scotland had valid reasons to vote as they did. It would be a sorry state of affairs if the only way it could work was "vote for your mates, screw everything else.


What was Wales' valid reason?

There real reason is that they both hate and are jealous of us. They hate we now longer look on them as our natural superior; jealous that we have managed the transition to professionalism better than them. They’d rather drag us down; than see us move away from them.

At least the Scots had a blackly comic ‘reason’: a few bob more in several years time, post 2023. Really???


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Re: RWC 2023: Ireland

Postby olaf the fat » November 22nd, 2017, 10:17 am

The reasons behind any unions vote should be - A) The good of their team and provide them with the best chance to win the competition B) The good of their travelling fans.

Location /closeness to home (part of it would have been in their own state!), logistics, ease of travel for their fans, familiarity & support of the host nation fans.

When they say they had valid reason to vote as they did - wtf
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Re: RWC 2023: Ireland

Postby CiaranIrl » November 22nd, 2017, 12:30 pm

TerenureJim wrote:What was Wales' valid reason?


Well, they were the recommended bid. I would have thought that was fairly obvious. You might (like me) not agree with the report or the process, but it's not ludicrous to think someone else might.
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Re: RWC 2023: Ireland

Postby CiaranIrl » November 22nd, 2017, 12:44 pm

artaneboy wrote:Ciaran, most people here have expressed their frustration or/ and anger at the process, as much or more than the actual decision. It was obviously flawed at best and ‘stacked’ if you were to be less charitable. Most of us also have a view (subjective but sincere) that Ireland winning the bid would have been good for the sport as a whole- as well as for the country and the game here.


I agree with that. I believe we would have put on the best world cup. However, I don't think it's irrational or insane that someone else might have a different opinion.

artaneboy wrote:So we did believe, naively it transpires, that we could therefore count on the support of our Celtic League partners.


This is where I diverge. They shouldn't have voted for us because they were geographically beside us, they should have voted for us because we had the best bid. I also respect their right to have a different opinion

artaneboy wrote:the reasons, timing and communication were respectively pathetic, inadequate and contemptuous. That’s the difference between your SANZAR example. It’s not treachery (as it definitely was with the ERC)- it’s insulting, never mind for now being foolishly shortsighted.


In what way? Scotland happen to have said from the outset that they would vote for the biggest financial package, but they weren't required to. Why should Wales have made some form of formal, public communication as to how they would vote? Why shouldn't they have waited until the last week to make a decision? I mean, they met our delegation in the last few days before making a final decision, so where is the subterfuge evidence? What exactly was contemptuous?

artaneboy wrote:I remember the sinking of the ERC and now this wound. We would need to be stupid not to learn from those experiences.
...
I suggest we will advocate a vote based on our self interest. We certainly won’t care on the views of the Welsh, Scots or Italian unions. But that’s reasonable given what’s happened. It’s the least we or they can expect. Neither will we care “what’s best for rugby” because neither will anyone else- and our eschewing self interest won’t make a bit of difference.


That's pretty depressing. What you're basically saying is that we can never bid for the world cup on the basis on a great bid. Just backhanders and bribes. Bring in Bertie to lead our next bid team, eh? In the next round, if Argentina & USA are the bidders, and the Argie bid is incredible & the US bid is terrible, vote US regardless because 'favours'. If there are bids in the future where one offers us something in our own self interest, but another bid is far superior, vote for the former regardless.

France winning 2023 gets Scotland an extra 2 million (estimated on OTB), which makes them 'penny pinching', 'pathetic' and 'contemptuous'. But in the future, we should copy that behaviour, apparently.
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Re: RWC 2023: Ireland

Postby CiaranIrl » November 22nd, 2017, 12:50 pm

olaf the fat wrote:The reasons behind any unions vote should be - A) The good of their team and provide them with the best chance to win the competition B) The good of their travelling fans.

Location /closeness to home (part of it would have been in their own state!), logistics, ease of travel for their fans, familiarity & support of the host nation fans.

When they say they had valid reason to vote as they did - wtf


So nobody in Europe should ever vote for a non European world cup, is it? That's just it. Vote as a bloc for whatever is most convenient. I respectfully disagree wholeheartedly.

Anyway, even if that was true, how does that prove that Scotland & Wales voting for France was off kilter? There's a train to France for them & the weather is better. Now the point here isn't that you can't argue that ireland would be an even better experience for fans. The point here is that you would need to show that and Irish world cup would be SO much better that them voting for France is irrational / wrong / borderline corrupt etc.

Look - I'm arguing against pretty much everyone here, so I'll probably just give up. I just personally believe that us arguing that Wales / Scotland / Italy should have voted for us just because we're in a league together is a bit sad. That just proves that the Saffers were right. It is just a big old boys club. I think they (and everyone) should have voted for us because it was the best world cup bid for a whole host of reasons.
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Re: RWC 2023: Ireland

Postby olaf the fat » November 22nd, 2017, 1:31 pm

CiaranIrl wrote:
olaf the fat wrote:The reasons behind any unions vote should be - A) The good of their team and provide them with the best chance to win the competition B) The good of their travelling fans.

Location /closeness to home (part of it would have been in their own state!), logistics, ease of travel for their fans, familiarity & support of the host nation fans.

When they say they had valid reason to vote as they did - wtf


So nobody in Europe should ever vote for a non European world cup, is it? That's just it. Vote as a bloc for whatever is most convenient. I respectfully disagree wholeheartedly.

Anyway, even if that was true, how does that prove that Scotland & Wales voting for France was off kilter? There's a train to France for them & the weather is better. Now the point here isn't that you can't argue that ireland would be an even better experience for fans. The point here is that you would need to show that and Irish world cup would be SO much better that them voting for France is irrational / wrong / borderline corrupt etc.

Look - I'm arguing against pretty much everyone here, so I'll probably just give up. I just personally believe that us arguing that Wales / Scotland / Italy should have voted for us just because we're in a league together is a bit sad. That just proves that the Saffers were right. It is just a big old boys club. I think they (and everyone) should have voted for us because it was the best world cup bid for a whole host of reasons.



I understand your point of view, and you are mostly right - they are obliged to vote for which ever location they see as best. The reasoning behind there choice does raise a few questions - as does the nature of the report OR the quality of our bid proposal.

Regarding nobody voting for a non euro wc - in this particular case nobody being Scotland and Wales, and Ireland have never bid before and most likely wont again. its hardly a pan european voting bloc working against the future world cup bids.

Anyway - we are entitled to be a bit pissed of with the neighbours for a while.
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