IRFU lose the plot completely

[blues_fan]

I can see the reasoning behind this making sense. They don't want a tonne of NIQ's jamming up a certain position so when it comes to international time Kidney is left with very few choices or none at all. Each team still gets 5 NIQs right? So all it may mean is some slight reshuffling of NIQ's. It also rewards teams who have strong youth programs to call on.

Still, there are problems. What if Leinster need a new NIQ right wing, Munster could cynically sign Doug Howlett(whereas they may have wanted to release him) again, keeping a good player and screwing Leinster at the same time. Or does the IRFU decide, no, Digby Ioane is a better player, sorry Munster you have to release Howlett to make way for Ioane(for instance) at Leinster.

It has merit if the intention is to give clubs more of an incentive to give Irish youth a shot at the big time, but if it's just an IRFU power grab then it's not so great. Have the provinces given this their blessing? If they have then it can't all be bad.

[rooster]

Still, there are problems. What if Leinster need a new NIQ right wing, Munster could cynically sign Doug Howlett(whereas they may have wanted to release him) again, keeping a good player and screwing Leinster at the same time. Or does the IRFU decide, no, Digby Ioane is a better player, sorry Munster you have to release Howlett to make way for Ioane(for instance) at Leinster.

Munster could not sign Howlett again, looks like once your NIQ contract is up then you cannot resign which means any NIQ will know he has to move on after his contract is up, not going to encourage as many to possibly come here to start with. I the case you meention Munster are then banned from hiring a new NIQ winger, wonder how long that stays in place ? 1 year or for ever ?

- For the 2013/14 season and onwards, for any given position involving a contracted NIE player, a province will not be permitted to renew that NIE player contract or bring in a new NIE player into that same position in its squad.

[blues_fan]

Still, there are problems. What if Leinster need a new NIQ right wing, Munster could cynically sign Doug Howlett(whereas they may have wanted to release him) again, keeping a good player and screwing Leinster at the same time. Or does the IRFU decide, no, Digby Ioane is a better player, sorry Munster you have to release Howlett to make way for Ioane(for instance) at Leinster.

Munster could not sign Howlett again, looks like once your NIQ contract is up then you cannot resign which means any NIQ will know he has to move on after his contract is up, not going to encourage as many to possibly come here to start with. I the case you meention Munster are then banned from hiring a new NIQ winger, wonder how long that stays in place ? 1 year or for ever ?

- For the 2013/14 season and onwards, for any given position involving a contracted NIE player, a province will not be permitted to renew that NIE player contract or bring in a new NIE player into that same position in its squad.

I think you are misreading it. They can't sign two NIQ's to the same position once their contracts are up. So, if there is a NIQ currently signed in a player's position when their contract expires the club would have to re-sign them in a different position or release them. So if Howlett's contract expires and Digby Ioane is playing for Ulster(god forbid) then Howlett would have to move on. If there's no NIQs in his position then Munster can re-sign him.

It's actually not to bad for a player like Isa who can play 10-15, all Leinster need to do is sign him as whatever position there is no NIQ's assuming he's still wanted by 2013. You are right though, it does make Ireland a much less attractive destination for NIQs.

[cormac]

Still, there are problems. What if Leinster need a new NIQ right wing, Munster could cynically sign Doug Howlett(whereas they may have wanted to release him) again, keeping a good player and screwing Leinster at the same time. Or does the IRFU decide, no, Digby Ioane is a better player, sorry Munster you have to release Howlett to make way for Ioane(for instance) at Leinster.

Munster could not sign Howlett again, looks like once your NIQ contract is up then you cannot resign which means any NIQ will know he has to move on after his contract is up, not going to encourage as many to possibly come here to start with. I the case you meention Munster are then banned from hiring a new NIQ winger, wonder how long that stays in place ? 1 year or for ever ?

- For the 2013/14 season and onwards, for any given position involving a contracted NIE player, a province will not be permitted to renew that NIE player contract or bring in a new NIE player into that same position in its squad.

I think you are misreading it. They can't sign two NIQ's to the same position once their contracts are up. So, if there is a NIQ currently signed in a player's position when their contract expires the club would have to re-sign them in a different position or release them. So if Howlett's contract expires and Digby Ioane is playing for Ulster(god forbid) then Howlett would have to move on. If there's no NIQs in his position then Munster can re-sign him.

It's actually not to bad for a player like Isa who can play 10-15, all Leinster need to do is sign him as whatever position there is no NIQ's assuming he's still wanted by 2013. You are right though, it does make Ireland a much less attractive destination for NIQs.

All future signings have to be position specific, so essentially Leinster couldn't sign Isa Nacewa mk.2.

[blues_fan]

All future signings have to be position specific, so essentially Leinster couldn't sign Isa Nacewa mk.2.

But they could sign Isa the fullback or Isa the 2nd-five etc etc.. so long as there are no other NIQs in the position they sign him to.

[berniemac67]

Someone has already mentioned this here or in another thread, but there are potentially interesting legal consequences of this policy.

We all assume that the NIQs we are interested in would be from the SH, and for the most part this is true. However, in the case of an EU citizen NIQ player this rule would likely be found to contravene one or more European Treaty articles if tested.

[Xanthippe]

Still, there are problems. What if Leinster need a new NIQ right wing, Munster could cynically sign Doug Howlett(whereas they may have wanted to release him) again, keeping a good player and screwing Leinster at the same time. Or does the IRFU decide, no, Digby Ioane is a better player, sorry Munster you have to release Howlett to make way for Ioane(for instance) at Leinster.

Munster could not sign Howlett again, looks like once your NIQ contract is up then you cannot resign which means any NIQ will know he has to move on after his contract is up, not going to encourage as many to possibly come here to start with. I the case you meention Munster are then banned from hiring a new NIQ winger, wonder how long that stays in place ? 1 year or for ever ?

- For the 2013/14 season and onwards, for any given position involving a contracted NIE player, a province will not be permitted to renew that NIE player contract or bring in a new NIE player into that same position in its squad.

I think you are misreading it. They can't sign two NIQ's to the same position once their contracts are up. So, if there is a NIQ currently signed in a player's position when their contract expires the club would have to re-sign them in a different position or release them. So if Howlett's contract expires and Digby Ioane is playing for Ulster(god forbid) then Howlett would have to move on. If there's no NIQs in his position then Munster can re-sign him.

It's actually not to bad for a player like Isa who can play 10-15, all Leinster need to do is sign him as whatever position there is no NIQ's assuming he's still wanted by 2013. You are right though, it does make Ireland a much less attractive destination for NIQs.

Ithink it may actually be you who is misreading - it appears the idea is that Leinster could sign, for example, a NIE hooker for two years but when his contract is up he MUST be replaced by an Irish player and the NIE hooker position would become available to Munster or Ulster. So in effect, you bring in an experienced player for two years with a dual purpose - they play for you in a position where you are short of skilled players and they also help to train up their replacement, who must be an Irish player.

So if Leinster were to sign NIEs in positions 1, 3, 5, 10 and 14, then in two years (or whatever the contract length is - the IRFU have not actually specified that part yet) they would be restricted to choosing NIEs who play in 5 of the other 10 positions.

I think to a certain extent the provinces already do this with notable exceptions like Howlett and Isa who seem to fit in so well they stay on longer than their original contracts - I'm thinking here of players like Ollie LeRoux and Rocky Elsom who definitely passed on their skills and knowledge to the younger Leinster players who have since replaced them.

In one way I can see the logic in what the IRFU are trying to do but as usual they manage to make a mess of what could be a very clever development strategy - they talk about position specific contracts but I'm not sure exactly how this would be enforceable. Already this season we've seen Fionn Carr play in the 14 jersey but on the left wing and I'm not sure how they can stop a player who is wearing the 15 jersey from carrying out some of the functions of a winger or a centre during an actual game. Does this also mean that if the ball is in a ruck and Issac Boss in at the bottom of the ruck that Isa Nacewa will no longer be allowed to dig the ball out and pass it to Johnny Sexton?

[tate]

Someone has already mentioned this here or in another thread, but there are potentially interesting legal consequences of this policy.

We all assume that the NIQs we are interested in would be from the SH, and for the most part this is true. However, in the case of an EU citizen NIQ player this rule would likely be found to contravene one or more European Treaty articles if tested.

I ain't no fancy pantsed law-talking guy, but even I can see this has serious potential legal ramifications. Not hiring someone on the grounds of their nationality? What is this, Russia?

[cormac]

All future signings have to be position specific, so essentially Leinster couldn't sign Isa Nacewa mk.2.

But they could sign Isa the fullback or Isa the 2nd-five etc etc.. so long as there are no other NIQs in the position they sign him to.

I'm not sure you're quite getting the full ramification of this new policy.

Let's say it was in force when Leinster signed Isa Nacewa. Firstly they would have been forced to nominate a position for him to play in, let's say he was signed as a 10. Leinster would not have been able to play him on the wing or at full-back because Paul Warwick and Doug Howlett were at Munster and Simon Danielli was at Ulster.

[Dave Cahill]

I'm not sure you're quite getting the full ramification of this new policy.

Let's say it was in force when Leinster signed Isa Nacewa. Firstly they would have been forced to nominate a position for him to play in, let's say he was signed as a 10. Leinster would not have been able to play him on the wing or at full-back because Paul Warwick and Doug Howlett were at Munster and Simon Danielli was at Ulster.

Actually, in the above case, we wouldn't have been able to sign him as a 10, because thats what Warwick was initially brought in as.


It just shows how out of touch the Union are, they haven't heard of players who can play in more than one position. Of course that only became common in the 20th century, so you can see their problem.

[tate]

#occupylandsdowneroad

[berniemac67]

Someone has already mentioned this here or in another thread, but there are potentially interesting legal consequences of this policy.

We all assume that the NIQs we are interested in would be from the SH, and for the most part this is true. However, in the case of an EU citizen NIQ player this rule would likely be found to contravene one or more European Treaty articles if tested.

I ain't no fancy pantsed law-talking guy, but even I can see this has serious potential legal ramifications. Not hiring someone on the grounds of their nationality? What is this, Russia?

you're allowed to not hire someone on the basis that they cannot legally work in the EU, e.g. a kiwi or aussie or saffer, even though this isn't russia

but the EU treaty prohibits certain restrictions on movement of persons within the EU. hence the problem only really arises if the NIQ is a EU citizen or another who is entitled to work in the EU

[blues_fan]

Ithink it may actually be you who is misreading - it appears the idea is that Leinster could sign, for example, a NIE hooker for two years but when his contract is up he MUST be replaced by an Irish player and the NIE hooker position would become available to Munster or Ulster. So in effect, you bring in an experienced player for two years with a dual purpose - they play for you in a position where you are short of skilled players and they also help to train up their replacement, who must be an Irish player.

So if Leinster were to sign NIEs in positions 1, 3, 5, 10 and 14, then in two years (or whatever the contract length is - the IRFU have not actually specified that part yet) they would be restricted to choosing NIEs who play in 5 of the other 10 positions.

I think to a certain extent the provinces already do this with notable exceptions like Howlett and Isa who seem to fit in so well they stay on longer than their original contracts - I'm thinking here of players like Ollie LeRoux and Rocky Elsom who definitely passed on their skills and knowledge to the younger Leinster players who have since replaced them.

In one way I can see the logic in what the IRFU are trying to do but as usual they manage to make a mess of what could be a very clever development strategy - they talk about position specific contracts but I'm not sure exactly how this would be enforceable. Already this season we've seen Fionn Carr play in the 14 jersey but on the left wing and I'm not sure how they can stop a player who is wearing the 15 jersey from carrying out some of the functions of a winger or a centre during an actual game. Does this also mean that if the ball is in a ruck and Issac Boss in at the bottom of the ruck that Isa Nacewa will no longer be allowed to dig the ball out and pass it to Johnny Sexton?

Ah I see what you mean. They can only be re-signed in a different position, as long as there is no other NIQ in that position at the other two provinces. Isa the full back for two years then round out his career at tight head prop for example. The Byzantine Emperor made less obscure rules!

I see the intention, but the execution needs refining I think.

[rooster]

From the Examiner

IRFU to limit foreign players

By John Harrington
Thursday, December 22, 2011
THE IRFU yesterday announced plans to limit the number of foreign rugby players at Munster, Leinster and Ulster.
From the start of the 2013/14 season, there will be only one non-Irish eligible player allowed in each of the 15 field positions across those provinces. That means if Munster field a foreign tight-head prop (like their current number 3, BJ Botha) then both Leinster and Ulster will have to field an Irish tight-head.

And if Leinster field a foreign right winger like Isa Nacewa, then both Munster and Ulster will have to field Irish number 14s. Provinces will no longer be allowed to renew the contracts of foreign players, and, when those players move on, the province will have to replace them with Irish players. So when Munster’s South African props Botha and Wian du Preez see out their contracts, Munster will have to field two Irish props.

It’s certainly going to make life more difficult for the three provinces (Connacht are exempt because they recently commenced a new development agreement with the IRFU), but IRFU chief executive Philip Browne is adamant it’s a measure that simply had to be made.

"We want a balance that will allow us continued success at provincial level and greater success at international level. It’s critical for the international team we take these steps. And we can’t allow a situation to develop where our provinces become overly dependent on foreign players because, in the long-run, that creates a real problem for the national team and Irish rugby.

It’s imperative the Irish team remains competitive and successful and that requires us to have Irish qualified players gaining continued experience at provincial level."

Not surprisingly, when the IRFU first discussed their plans with the provinces, they weren’t all that warmly received. "We spent a lot of time discussing it with the provinces and they would have preferred the status quo to remain," admits Browne.

"The provinces tend to look at things in two or three year blocks, whereas we look at the longer term and in terms of World Cup cycles. It just wasn’t a runner to leave things as they were, particularly with the challenges around succession planning in a number of positions on the field.

"We just couldn’t hang the future of the international team on the hope that players would emerge in those positions. We have to proactively plan to bring the players through.

"We don’t want to upset the natural balance too much. We want the provinces to be successful and foreign players will still be critical to that success."

The new system is likely to create some friction between the three provinces because there’s bound to be a scenario eventually where two or all three of them all want to recruit a foreign player in the same position.

"There’s no question that this will drive a lot of internal machinations by the provinces," admits IRFU director of rugby, Eddie Wigglesworth.

"I’m sure there will be various conversations that will go on at the beginning, during and at the end of the season about where players are going to go.

"The important thing from our perspective is that this isn’t a sudden imposition on the provinces. They have, in the main, the players they want for next season and in many respects the following season as well. There’s plenty of time in the process to get things in order and move on."

The IRFU will also impose two more restrictions on the provinces. All future injury replacement players will have to be Irish eligible, and all future foreign signings will have to be position specific.

"If you sign off on a player as a number 15, but want to play him in any other position when there are no exceptional scenarios that warrant that, then you will not get permission," explains Wigglesworth.

"You’ll have to play him as a 15."

Provincial coaches are unlikely to be pleased at having their hands tied in such a manner, and you’d wonder will it put off some of the most talented and ambitious from working with the Irish provinces in the future.

"We’ve got to make sure that doesn’t happen," admits Browne. "Both ourselves and the provinces will have to sell the system that we have. The proof will be in the pudding."

The provinces who adapt best to the new restrictions on foreign players will undoubtedly be those with the most productive academies, and Browne is hopeful this new contract policy will help ensure more and more academy graduates will progress to the top of the game.

"We’re spending about €2.5m a year on our academy structures and they’re churning out players," he says. "The worst possible scenario for us is that we have nowhere for those players to play because there are blockages in the system.

"So what we’re trying to do is loosen up some of those blockages without changing the whole system."

[rooster]

.

[rooster]

I'm not sure you're quite getting the full ramification of this new policy.

Let's say it was in force when Leinster signed Isa Nacewa. Firstly they would have been forced to nominate a position for him to play in, let's say he was signed as a 10. Leinster would not have been able to play him on the wing or at full-back because Paul Warwick and Doug Howlett were at Munster and Simon Danielli was at Ulster.

Actually, in the above case, we wouldn't have been able to sign him as a 10, because thats what Warwick was initially brought in as.


It just shows how out of touch the Union are, they haven't heard of players who can play in more than one position. Of course that only became common in the 20th century, so you can see their problem.

It goes evn deeper than that Dave

"If you sign off on a player as a number 15, but want to play him in any other position when there are no exceptional scenarios that warrant that, then you will not get permission," explains Wigglesworth.

"You’ll have to play him as a 15."

Now if Leinster had signed Dr Phil as a 10 he would never have been allowed to play 12 and bring Sexton through in matches at 10, you start to wonder did they think of things like this when they came up with the idea, most of the existing NIQ players have a duel role in playing and also helping young talent within the provinces, we have Pienaar at present who in most matches has then gone to 10 and lets Marshall play 20 mins at 9, he also keeps Humphreys right at 10 and also Jackson when he plays 9 so in effect he is an on field player/coach, I really don't think they have thought this right through.

[tate]

Now if Leinster had signed Dr Phil as a 10 he would never have been allowed to play 12 and bring Sexton through in matches at 10, you start to wonder did they think of things like this when they came up with the idea, most of the existing NIQ players have a duel role in playing and also helping young talent within the provinces, we have Pienaar at present who in most matches has then gone to 10 and lets Marshall play 20 mins at 9, he also keeps Humphreys right at 10 and also Jackson when he plays 9 so in effect he is an on field player/coach, I really don't think they have thought this right through.

How are they going to enforce this? Fine the provinces? Fire people?

Focking nonsense.

#occupylandsdowneroad

[mikerob]

From the Examiner

"If you sign off on a player as a number 15, but want to play him in any other position when there are no exceptional scenarios that warrant that, then you will not get permission," explains Wigglesworth.

"You’ll have to play him as a 15."

So if a player is named at 15 on the team sheet, has 15 on his back, but spends most of the game loitering around the general area where you would expect a left wing to be, WTF are the IRFU going to do? Monitor videos of matches to count the number of times a player isn't where they expect him to be?

[Donny B.]

It's a farce. How does that clown Philip Browne stay in a job?

First the ticket fiasco, now this badly-thought-out load of nonsense.

This shite will make us the laughing stock of Europe! Sabotaging our province's chances of success to keep bar-room xenophobes happy!

Is there any way to get rid of this fool?

[Dave Cahill]

Anyone (else) participate in their joke of twinterview. If they'd spent the half hour shooting spitballs at each other over their desks it would have been a better and more productive use of their time.