Sevens

[kermischocolate]

Yep awesome effort for their first Series event. Be interesting to see if they can back it up tomorrow (unlikely against USA but anything is possible) and more tellingly next week in Paris.

[Ruckedtobits]

And they did! Great win against the USA by 22-12 to get into the Semi-final. The most successful Guest team ever in a HSBC Series event.

Ouch, next up Fiji at 2.45 p.m.

[Ruckedtobits]

Beaten 38-12 by Fiji. A few too many simple errors and didn't play as well as earlier. But well done on making the Semi-final

[OTT]

Jordan Conroy has some juice.

[OTT]

And another absolute scorcher from Conroy.

Ireland ahead 21-19 last play of the game and they win. Brilliant.

[Hippo]

Sensational performance

[sunshiner1]

by OTT

Jordan Conroy has some juice.

It amazed me that Connacht didn't give him at least one game last year just to see what he could do in a 15 man game. I hope that he has a chance under Friend as Keane didn't seem to rate him.

[TerenureJim]

by OTT

Jordan Conroy has some juice.

It amazed me that Connacht didn't give him at least one game last year just to see what he could do in a 15 man game. I hope that he has a chance under Friend as Keane didn't seem to rate him.

How many players successfully transition between the 7 and the 15 man game?

[kermischocolate]

by OTT

Jordan Conroy has some juice.

It amazed me that Connacht didn't give him at least one game last year just to see what he could do in a 15 man game. I hope that he has a chance under Friend as Keane didn't seem to rate him.

How many players successfully transition between the 7 and the 15 man game?

IIRC most if not all the current NZ backline have played 7s. Many teams use it as a development tool.

Outstanding effort from Ireland.

[scentofgunpowder]

by OTT

Jordan Conroy has some juice.

It amazed me that Connacht didn't give him at least one game last year just to see what he could do in a 15 man game. I hope that he has a chance under Friend as Keane didn't seem to rate him.

Injured for much of the season I think.

[Ruckedtobits]

by OTT

Jordan Conroy has some juice.

It amazed me that Connacht didn't give him at least one game last year just to see what he could do in a 15 man game. I hope that he has a chance under Friend as Keane didn't seem to rate him.

How many players successfully transition between the 7 and the 15 man game?

And that is the key question. It is impossible to prepare players in a Provincial Academy, which is focussed on the XV's game, whilst they are involved in preparing for and playng in World Seven's tournaments - both logistically and on a skills focus.

Seven's hones certain skills, notably both-sides passing and both-shoulders tackling. However, it does very little for 80% of the skills utilised in XV's.

Across the world of rugby, there is very little cross-over of top level players i.e.20+ caps in either code, except for that extra-ordinary nation Fiji, where many of their top Seven's stars have transitioned to XV a-side.

The totally objective assessment would be that they are related, but separate, codes of rugby.

[leinsterforever]

And that is the key question. It is impossible to prepare players in a Provincial Academy, which is focussed on the XV's game, whilst they are involved in preparing for and playng in World Seven's tournaments - both logistically and on a skills focus.

Seven's hones certain skills, notably both-sides passing and both-shoulders tackling. However, it does very little for 80% of the skills utilised in XV's.

Across the world of rugby, there is very little cross-over of top level players i.e.20+ caps in either code, except for that extra-ordinary nation Fiji, where many of their top Seven's stars have transitioned to XV a-side.

The totally objective assessment would be that they are related, but separate, codes of rugby.

Do you really think the skills cross-over is that small? I suppose it depends what you classify as skills. You're obviously not going to improve scrummaging, mauling and that type of thing

I see it as a way to bridge the gap Irish players generally have when it comes to the areas that NZ are really good at - passing, footwork, fending, supporting the ball carrier. Most importantly players get comfortable operating in space and then know what to do rather than panicking a bit. In the concentrated format you just get a chance to do these things a lot more for the simple reason that you get the ball a lot more.

I get that the best 7s player isn't necessarily going to be suited to 15s, but if you take players you know are good at 15s, i.e. provincial academy players, I think playing 7s makes them more rounded footballers. There's no question in my mind that Hugo Keenan would be a significantly better player for Leinster after his 7s involvement than if he had never played 7s

[Dave Cahill]

Do you really think the skills cross-over is that small? I suppose it depends what you classify as skills. You're obviously not going to improve scrummaging, mauling and that type of thing

I see it as a way to bridge the gap Irish players generally have when it comes to the areas that NZ are really good at - passing, footwork, fending, supporting the ball carrier. Most importantly players get comfortable operating in space and then know what to do rather than panicking a bit. In the concentrated format you just get a chance to do these things a lot more for the simple reason that you get the ball a lot more.

I get that the best 7s player isn't necessarily going to be suited to 15s, but if you take players you know are good at 15s, i.e. provincial academy players, I think playing 7s makes them more rounded footballers. There's no question in my mind that Hugo Keenan would be a significantly better player for Leinster after his 7s involvement than if he had never played 7s

The very few common skills between Sevens and Rugby Union aren't really transferable in actuality. Basically you're using a tiny subset of the skills of rugby union against half the opposition in twice as much space. Rugby League is nowadays a more useful compliment to Rugby Union than Sevens.

Its often stated here that I have a particular dislike of Sevens. Thats not actually accurate. I enjoy watching Sevens (if I weren't working all weekend I would have been glued to the Irish games in the London Sevens), I also enjoy watching Rugby League (SOO on wednesday!) and Gaelic Football. They aren't Rugby Union though and neither, now, is Sevens. The evolutionary pathway it has taken, like adherents of the Rugby School Football rules did in relation to the Cambridge University Football rules, has created a different sport.

People talk about the number of NZ players who play sevens. That has to be qualified in two important ways though. Firstly, Sevens is a disqualifying level and there are a significant number of New Zealanders who, through birth or parentage, could play for other countries. Sevens ties them to New Zealand. Secondly - what else are they going to do? In Ireland (in particular, young,) players play Gaelic Football or Soccer during the off season, a similarly sporty NZ youth doesn't have those options (at least not Gaelic).

At the end of the day its my position that the IRFU should be spending its money on Rugby Union and that simply precludes it spending its money on other sports.

[leinsterforever]

Can you make the assumption that playing 7s isn't useful just because it's significantly different? It's different. Everybody knows that. Does that mean it can't act as beneficial training for 15s players? I would say not. Does the 100m runner train exclusively by just running 100m over and over again to the exclusion of everything else? Should rugby teams cut out the non-rugby training (weights etc) and train only by playing 80 minute games? Stuff that isn't exactly the same as your sport can still be beneficial. When I was in college, I overheard some people playing hurling saying that someone else had good dexterity and hand-eye coordination for someone who was new to hurling. The other guy, who was Canadian, I think, explained that it was probably from playing ice hockey.

I suppose we're back to the "how much crossover" argument then. I think passing and being composed enough to know how to go about beating someone (or at least getting a soft shoulder) and just being comfortable on the ball are pretty fundamental to both versions of the game. There was a beautiful long pinpoint pass from Keenan out to McNulty in the Bronze Final at the weekend. Over a weekend, every player on a 7s team will make a comparable number of passes to a scrumhalf in one 80 minute game. That honed passing ability can be brought back to 15s. It's the "basics" that we're always hearing NZ players are so good at! Better passing and playing to space better has been, I think, what's separated Leinster from Munster over the past few seasons.

There's also the getting comfortable executing on the big stage aspect

[backrower8]

Jordan Conroy has the sort of pace (and try scoring record) that Ireland has only ever seen with Simon Geoghegan and Denis Hickie. He (and McNulty) was selected on the Twickenham 7s DreamTeam. He should be treated as a special project(we have enough of them) to shape him for the XV man game.

[Dave Cahill]

Can you make the assumption that playing 7s isn't useful just because it's significantly different? It's different. Everybody knows that. Does that mean it can't act as beneficial training for 15s players? I would say not. Does the 100m runner train exclusively by just running 100m over and over again to the exclusion of everything else? Should rugby teams cut out the non-rugby training (weights etc) and train only by playing 80 minute games? Stuff that isn't exactly the same as your sport can still be beneficial. When I was in college, I overheard some people playing hurling saying that someone else had good dexterity and hand-eye coordination for someone who was new to hurling. The other guy, who was Canadian, I think, explained that it was probably from playing ice hockey.

I suppose we're back to the "how much crossover" argument then. I think passing and being composed enough to know how to go about beating someone (or at least getting a soft shoulder) and just being comfortable on the ball are pretty fundamental to both versions of the game. There was a beautiful long pinpoint pass from Keenan out to McNulty in the Bronze Final at the weekend. Over a weekend, every player on a 7s team will make a comparable number of passes to a scrumhalf in one 80 minute game. That honed passing ability can be brought back to 15s. It's the "basics" that we're always hearing NZ players are so good at! Better passing and playing to space better has been, I think, what's separated Leinster from Munster over the past few seasons.

There's also the getting comfortable executing on the big stage aspect

Again, its easy to be comfortable on the ball with twice the space and half the opposition as you'd find in rugby union, its easier to make long pinpoint passes in twice as much time as you'd have in rugby union, and its a hell of a lot easier to beat a guy in twice as much space without having to worry about more guys coming across on the drift than are on a sevens team. It doesn't actually improve skills, what you're talking about lessens them in the reality of rugby union where there is less space, more opposition and a massively greater skillset required. In terms of transferable skills, Sevens offers considerably less than Rugby League

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I've very similar thoughts on this to you Dave but did it not come out a while back that this costs the IRFU very little?

[Lar]

I've very similar thoughts on this to you Dave but did it not come out a while back that this costs the IRFU very little?

I thought cost was one of the reasons the Union did not support sevens previously and had not heard this had changed. I agree Sevens is great to watch but by and large does not benefit the 15 man game very much if at all. The one bit that I like about sevens is that it has a greater international profile, especially now that it is an Olympic sport. Countries that have a longish way to go in the main game can be pretty competitive at sevens and it raises the game's profile a lot and attracts new audiences. The Olympics is a big deal whether we like it or not and for Ireland as a serious rugby nation not to bother with sevens at all always struck me as short-sighted. Pleased the side did so well at the week-end.

[Dave Cahill]

I've very similar thoughts on this to you Dave but did it not come out a while back that this costs the IRFU very little?

I don't know to be honest. It can't be cheap to send 15 guys and coaches around the world. I do know that World Rugby gives big subventions to Sevens Rugby alright, so if that were the case, it could be so.

I would question the wisdom however of spending money, no matter how little, on what is now essentially a rival sport.

[Dave Cahill]

I thought cost was one of the reasons the Union did not support sevens previously and had not heard this had changed. I agree Sevens is great to watch but by and large does not benefit the 15 man game very much if at all. The one bit that I like about sevens is that it has a greater international profile, especially now that it is an Olympic sport. Countries that have a longish way to go in the main game can be pretty competitive at sevens and it raises the game's profile a lot and attracts new audiences. The Olympics is a big deal whether we like it or not and for Ireland as a serious rugby nation not to bother with sevens at all always struck me as short-sighted. Pleased the side did so well at the week-end.

It raises the profile of Sevens at lot and attracts new audiences to Sevens. The evidence would suggest that it does nothing for the profile, attendance or development of Rugby Union in those countries though - and I would suggest the opposite is actually true.

Olympics? So what. Does anyone in Ireland really care about the Olympics outside of when they're on? Its a nice TV filler for the summer every couple of years, but none of the popular sports in Ireland except soccer (and maybe boxing) are represented (and soccer is an age-grade competition, so big whoop). Its nice for minority sports to get some front end TV, but thats about it.