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Re: Sevens

Postby Lar » June 5th, 2018, 3:56 pm

I agree that the skills don't translate as well as many seem to think but I do think that sevens and Rugby Union are viewed in a similar light, especially by those who don't know the game. I don't have any of the stats as to whether it actually damages the profile, attendance or development of Rugby Union, but I do think the awareness of rugby generally is advanced by sevens, and whilst I hear what you say about the Olympics it is still a major sporting event and a lot higher profile than the Rugby World Cup, even in some first tier rugby nations.
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Re: Sevens

Postby arsebiscuits1 » June 5th, 2018, 4:54 pm

Regardless if anyone thinks that Sevens is a useful developmental tool or not - I happen to think it is, more importantly Nucifora does, and that's why we have a program - is irrelevant largely.

It's win win. One person sees the lads doing well as a brilliant chance for development. Another person sees it as a totally independent sport where a group of players represent their country and do well and it's great. Anyone who can find a negative or can be ambivalent about it is just not a person worth anyones time.

I don't really know why people are being so blase about an Irish international team doing well and getting recognition. There's a lot of sports I don't know a thing about, but I like them a lot more when the Irish folk are good at it.

Dave, I honestly don't know how someone is so negative. The Olympics are a brilliant spectacle where athletes in niche sports can have a real go on the world stage.

I didn't know anything about rowing, but you can bet I cheered on the O'Donovans and am delighted with the exposure they've gotten. Ditto with Thomas Barr in his hurdles final.

On the topic of cost. World Rugby cover competition cost for players and coaches. There's a set number so if you want to bring more it's out of the unions pocket.

The development and player costs are absolutely tiny compared to the whole IRFU budget and frankly only the most begrudging people think that "IRFU should be spending its money on Rugby Union and that simply precludes it spending its money on other sports."

Sevens and womens Rugby are hand in hand. They share an office and many of their backroom double job. So in dismissing the sevens you seem to be also dismissing the womens. And Sevens is a vital tool in womens rugby development

And to keep on this thread Dave because you can give a backhanded compliment to Sevens and your "enjoyment of watching it all you want" you can also give disdain to the Olympics also but let's not forget that there are grants available via Sport Ireland. Grants that are easily achievable for a team that looks like they've a chance at qualification. Your previous IRFU budget will be relied on even less with these available
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Re: Sevens

Postby arsebiscuits1 » June 5th, 2018, 5:00 pm

And to not end it on a totally negative point of dressing down Dave's disdain for anything that's outside his worryingly limited point of view...

What an unbelievable performance from the boys. The skills on display were not only polished, they were on par with the best teams in the series.

The passing was crisp, the restarts accurate, lineout was fantastic and there was even fancy offloading to boot. Conroy got all of the plaudits deservedly but our academy boys especially in Kennedy, Keenan and Fitzpatrick really stood up to the task. The rest of the squad were excellent but those 3 with their pace stood out.

Roche and McNulty were incredibly effective in both controlling possession and regaining it.

Great showing lads. Let's hope you can ride the wave this weekend. Wales and Spain are still beatable, Aussies are a tough side. A QF wouldn't be an insurmountable task again
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Re: Sevens

Postby Dave Cahill » June 5th, 2018, 5:32 pm

arsebiscuits1 wrote:Regardless if anyone thinks that Sevens is a useful developmental tool or not - I happen to think it is, more importantly Nucifora does, and that's why we have a program - is irrelevant largely.

It's win win. One person sees the lads doing well as a brilliant chance for development. Another person sees it as a totally independent sport where a group of players represent their country and do well and it's great. Anyone who can find a negative or can be ambivalent about it is just not a person worth anyones time.

I don't really know why people are being so blase about an Irish international team doing well and getting recognition. There's a lot of sports I don't know a thing about, but I like them a lot more when the Irish folk are good at it.

Dave, I honestly don't know how someone is so negative. The Olympics are a brilliant spectacle where athletes in niche sports can have a real go on the world stage.

I didn't know anything about rowing, but you can bet I cheered on the O'Donovans and am delighted with the exposure they've gotten. Ditto with Thomas Barr in his hurdles final.

On the topic of cost. World Rugby cover competition cost for players and coaches. There's a set number so if you want to bring more it's out of the unions pocket.

The development and player costs are absolutely tiny compared to the whole IRFU budget and frankly only the most begrudging people think that "IRFU should be spending its money on Rugby Union and that simply precludes it spending its money on other sports."

Sevens and womens Rugby are hand in hand. They share an office and many of their backroom double job. So in dismissing the sevens you seem to be also dismissing the womens. And Sevens is a vital tool in womens rugby development

And to keep on this thread Dave because you can give a backhanded compliment to Sevens and your "enjoyment of watching it all you want" you can also give disdain to the Olympics also but let's not forget that there are grants available via Sport Ireland. Grants that are easily achievable for a team that looks like they've a chance at qualification. Your previous IRFU budget will be relied on even less with these available


After the O'Donovans, what was the the next regatta you watched? After Thomas Barr, what the next hurdles race you watched?

You're basically saying you're a dilettante. And thats fine if thats what you like. But the nation cheering on the O'Donovans or Thomas Barr did nothing for them or their sports. The brothers still have to pay their own way and borrow a boat for Linz in a couple of weeks time.

Because no one in Ireland cares about the vast majority of the sports in the Olympics once the Olympics are over, and the vast majority don't even care about them during the Olympics. We do care about sports, just not the vast majority of Olympic sports. So why pretend.

We saw how well Sevens rugby aided the Womens team during the WRWC. Most of the Womens Rugby Union team themselves, never mind the spectators thought it was a complete waste of time and some of the Sevens team themselves had to be forced to participate as they would rather have played in the Six Nations games they had to miss. Contrast that with 2014 where the Irish squad refused to play any sevens. We got to the semis and finished fourth. The only tool in womens rugby development was Anthony Eddy.

Edit: We also beat New Zealand in the 2014 WRWC - with their no doubt plethora of sevens players
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Re: Sevens

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » June 5th, 2018, 5:32 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:I've very similar thoughts on this to you Dave but did it not come out a while back that this costs the IRFU very little?


I don't know to be honest. It can't be cheap to send 15 guys and coaches around the world. I do know that World Rugby gives big subventions to Sevens Rugby alright, so if that were the case, it could be so.

I would question the wisdom however of spending money, no matter how little, on what is now essentially a rival sport.


Yeah that rings a bell but can't find where I saw it.

There are probably indirect costs anyway, like needing extra bodies to cover guys being away etc.
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Re: Sevens

Postby Ruckedtobits » June 5th, 2018, 6:28 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:
Lar wrote:
I thought cost was one of the reasons the Union did not support sevens previously and had not heard this had changed. I agree Sevens is great to watch but by and large does not benefit the 15 man game very much if at all. The one bit that I like about sevens is that it has a greater international profile, especially now that it is an Olympic sport. Countries that have a longish way to go in the main game can be pretty competitive at sevens and it raises the game's profile a lot and attracts new audiences. The Olympics is a big deal whether we like it or not and for Ireland as a serious rugby nation not to bother with sevens at all always struck me as short-sighted. Pleased the side did so well at the week-end.


It raises the profile of Sevens at lot and attracts new audiences to Sevens. The evidence would suggest that it does nothing for the profile, attendance or development of Rugby Union in those countries though - and I would suggest the opposite is actually true.

Olympics? So what. Does anyone in Ireland really care about the Olympics outside of when they're on? Its a nice TV filler for the summer every couple of years, but none of the popular sports in Ireland except soccer (and maybe boxing) are represented (and soccer is an age-grade competition, so big whoop). Its nice for minority sports to get some front end TV, but thats about it.


Taking a line through Annual Reports of RFU and WRU and also assistance given by World Rugby to Kenya, a year on the HSBC World Series costs about €1.5 - €1.9m all in, Players , Backroom and logistics. Other than sponsorship, prizemoney is the only offset and that is largely focussed on Series Results, not individual tournament.

My earlier point about the conflict between Seven's and XV's is very simply. When you' re training for a series of Seven's Tournaments e.g. this year - Moscow, Berlin, Hong Kong, London, Paris & San Francisco for starters- quite simply the Players are in the Academy getting coached 6 daysa week in what the Academy coaches consider are vital skills to play XV's rugby. You're either on a plane or in a Tournament or getting coached to play a different game. Players miss out on that rugby education, so taking Hugo Keenan as an example, whatever improvement he might learn in his evasion & distribution through Seven's, he will have missed at least twice as much on key skills and understanding of some elements of XV's that he quite simply will never pick-up again.

So then it comes to year-end Academy assessment and contract renewal. Do you renew the guy who's been away intermittedly for 6 months and has only played 5 games of XV'S all Season, or do you select the guy you have seen making regular progress, both on his technical skills as well as his match based performances?

That's a real practical question as the Academy Staff have only two options sh!t or Bust. They can either recommend a players gets a Development Contract or that he moves on and out. They can't delay the process (except because of injury) to allow guys the time to catch-up, there's too much pressure from new prospects coming through, either from school, or more likely, the Sub-Academy. Competition in this area is fierce and places are limited. Dog eat dog, even among best friends and the Coaches are assessed on output not prospects.

As is often the case, the IRFU want the ootcome but hands the problem and the search for a process to the Provinces. Have a look at the overall composition of the Seven's panel and suggest who's providing the best process at present. But then go and look at what the outcomes are for players like Kennedy and Dardis - both completed their time in the Academy and full-time members of our National Sevens Panel, but without any professional contracts. What's their next decision and Who's fault is that?
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Re: Sevens

Postby Peg Leg » June 5th, 2018, 6:39 pm

Make the Munster academy the de facto Irish sevens squad.
They'll take all the hand outs they can get, it'll improve skillz, reduce the irfu cost burden and inject some much needed passion into the rugby circuit for the netflix generation.
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Re: Sevens

Postby Dave Cahill » June 5th, 2018, 6:50 pm

Peg Leg wrote:Make the Munster academy the de facto Irish sevens squad.
They'll take all the hand outs they can get, it'll improve skillz, reduce the irfu cost burden and inject some much needed passion into the rugby circuit for the netflix generation.
Are there enough Munster lads on Munster's books for a sevens team?
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Re: Sevens

Postby paddyor » June 5th, 2018, 7:42 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:
Peg Leg wrote:Make the Munster academy the de facto Irish sevens squad.
They'll take all the hand outs they can get, it'll improve skillz, reduce the irfu cost burden and inject some much needed passion into the rugby circuit for the netflix generation.
Are there enough Munster lads on Munster's books for a sevens team?

Plenty of OHs.
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Re: Sevens

Postby Flash Gordon » June 6th, 2018, 1:42 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:I've very similar thoughts on this to you Dave but did it not come out a while back that this costs the IRFU very little?


I don't know to be honest. It can't be cheap to send 15 guys and coaches around the world. I do know that World Rugby gives big subventions to Sevens Rugby alright, so if that were the case, it could be so.

I would question the wisdom however of spending money, no matter how little, on what is now essentially a rival sport.


It's an interesting question on finance. I watch a bit of 7's and many tournaments seem well attended, well sponsored and televised. Obviously there's significant catering potential at the events too.

Salaries are low enough I believe - €15-20k plus appearance money.

With regard to the game, it's a different game for sure but there are many benefits - handling skills, offloading, pace and fitness for example. Every team I ever played on used 7's as a training exercise.
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Re: Sevens

Postby Fireworks » June 7th, 2018, 9:10 am

Flash Gordon wrote:
Dave Cahill wrote:
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:I've very similar thoughts on this to you Dave but did it not come out a while back that this costs the IRFU very little?


I don't know to be honest. It can't be cheap to send 15 guys and coaches around the world. I do know that World Rugby gives big subventions to Sevens Rugby alright, so if that were the case, it could be so.

I would question the wisdom however of spending money, no matter how little, on what is now essentially a rival sport.


It's an interesting question on finance. I watch a bit of 7's and many tournaments seem well attended, well sponsored and televised. Obviously there's significant catering potential at the events too.

Salaries are low enough I believe - €15-20k plus appearance money.

With regard to the game, it's a different game for sure but there are many benefits - handling skills, offloading, pace and fitness for example. Every team I ever played on used 7's as a training exercise.


If a correct structure could be decided on then I think that 7's could be beneficial. In Aus and NZ tip rugby is very big and helps to develop footwork and handling skills in a competitive environment. 7's could do something similar for anyone moving to the full contact game. It may benefit some guys while for others who might not make it in the 15 man game it could be a good fit. Carlin Isles is a 7's star who tried the 15 man game and failed, 7's is his game and that is ok.
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Re: Sevens

Postby sunshiner1 » June 7th, 2018, 9:32 am

Carlin Isles is a 7's star who tried the 15 man game and failed, 7's is his game and that is ok.


I think Conroy will go the same way.
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Re: Sevens

Postby Laighin Break » June 7th, 2018, 12:34 pm

Is it really a rival sport though? I thought it was more of a development sport for some academy lads
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Re: Sevens

Postby Peg Leg » June 7th, 2018, 6:25 pm

Laighin Break wrote:Is it really a rival sport though? I thought it was more of a development sport for some academy lads
Its popular in some countries where Union doesn't register at all. I think its detrimental to growing the 15 game.
If 7s was your introduction to rugby 15s would be a big let down IMO.
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Re: Sevens

Postby hugonaut » June 7th, 2018, 8:15 pm

Flash Gordon wrote:
Dave Cahill wrote:
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:I've very similar thoughts on this to you Dave but did it not come out a while back that this costs the IRFU very little?


I don't know to be honest. It can't be cheap to send 15 guys and coaches around the world. I do know that World Rugby gives big subventions to Sevens Rugby alright, so if that were the case, it could be so.

I would question the wisdom however of spending money, no matter how little, on what is now essentially a rival sport.


It's an interesting question on finance. I watch a bit of 7's and many tournaments seem well attended, well sponsored and televised. Obviously there's significant catering potential at the events too.

Salaries are low enough I believe - €15-20k plus appearance money.

With regard to the game, it's a different game for sure but there are many benefits - handling skills, offloading, pace and fitness for example. Every team I ever played on used 7's as a training exercise.


Every good team I ever trained with used league [inside a 22, i.e. a f*cking tackle-fest] when they wanted to knuckle down and get serious.

I'm with DC on this one: I enjoy Sevens for what it is, but I'm super sceptical about any claims that it's a reliable or proven development tool for Irish professional rugby. And to be frank, it's going to take somebody coming into the Sevens set-up from an entirely non-rugby background [i.e. a sprinter/GAA player/whatever] and then progressing on to a professional provincial contract to convince me that I'm wrong.

Because the guys that are playing it, the vast majority of them, are going into it from a decade of training [15-a-side]. Lots of them will have played rugby for more than that period. How can you separate that out from the 'sevens success story'? There's a proven pathway in 15-a-side with the TIP, Leinster age-grade training camps and representative teams etc. It has been genuinely proven, sh*tloads of players have gone through it.
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Re: Sevens

Postby leinsterforever » June 7th, 2018, 9:27 pm

Squad announced for Paris leg:

Sean Cribbin (Suttonians)
Jordan Conroy (Buccaneers)
Shane Daly (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Billy Dardis (UCD) (capt)
Hugo Keenan (UCD/Leinster)
Terry Kennedy (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Adam Leavy (Lansdowne/Connacht)
Alex McHenry (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Harry McNulty (UCD)
Bryan Mollen (Dublin University)
Jimmy O'Brien (UCD/Leinster)
James O'Donovan (Old Wesley)
Greg O'Shea (Shannon)
Mark Roche (Blackrock College)
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Re: Sevens

Postby Dave Cahill » June 8th, 2018, 1:43 pm

Irish Women get their Paris campaign off to a good start with a convincing win over Wales.

The IRFU continues to show its commitment to womens rugby by posting the wrong link to the match stream. No pooch left unfucked.
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Re: Sevens

Postby Ruckedtobits » June 10th, 2018, 9:00 am

Very excellent performance yesterday from the Men, beating Spain, drawing with Wales and tthen beating Australia to top their Pool in a full HSBC Series competition.

They face Canada in the Q/F this morning and they're a team similiar to us, strong in defence and at breakdown with one really quick attacker. Good luck to them all and don't mistake the animated discussion for lack of support and respect for their achievements.
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Re: Sevens

Postby Ruckedtobits » June 10th, 2018, 9:59 am

Beaten 19-5 by Canada but even the Sky commentatory team acknowledged that they were mauled by the English Ref Richard Haughton who not just gave then nothing but was totally biased against them including a very first movement YC against Shane Daly trying to intercept a high lobbed pass.
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Re: Sevens

Postby Hippo » June 10th, 2018, 1:10 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:Irish Women get their Paris campaign off to a good start with a convincing win over Wales.

The IRFU continues to show its commitment to womens rugby by posting the wrong link to the match stream. No pooch left unfucked.


They are certainly going out of their way. Wankers.
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