IRELAND 6 NATIONS SQUAD 2014

[All Blacks nil]

If we're dismissing the Wolfhounds game as being an outlier, as you seem to be suggesting, we should probably dismiss the Pro 12 game against Glasgow for POM where he made a whopping 19 tackles! Which is nearly two and a half times as many as he made in any other match.

Ruddock as I've said was excellent on Saturday night and really led the 2nd half defensive effort. He did lead the tackling stats. However the
loose heads contributed 19/1
the hookers 20/3
the tightheads 15/2
Tuohy 16/1
Henderson and his replacement Diack 18/3
Ruddock 19/2
O'Donnell and his replacement Murphy 21/3
Copeland 12/2 (lack of tackles offset by 3 turnovers, Ruddock was the only other forward to force a turnover)

As you see a huge defensive effort by all the pack .

[Peg Leg]

We have ulster who are now irelands top team

12 down. A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood. (3)

b*%&!x is 6 letters

[OTT]

will he take the bait?
Classic playground bully tactic.

Ruddock has played 790 minutes (234 HC + 556 PRO12) for Leinster this season
He has made 72 successful tackles and missed 11 (86.7% success rate)
He has won 3 turnovers and conceded 3 penalties
He has been in possession 121 times, passing 12 times and offloading 3 times
He has carried the ball 106 times into contact (87% of times in possession) for 213 metres beaten 23 defenders with 0 tries and 0 assists.
He has been used 33 times as a lineout target and like POM is involved as a lifter regularly. Generally both players play up the lineout.

POM has played 705 minutes (390 HC + 315 PRO12) for Munster this season.
He has made 71 successful tackles and missed 6 (93% success rate)
He has won 7 turnovers and conceded 7 penalties
He has been in possession 85 times, kicking once, passing 25 times, offloading once.
He has carried the ball 58 times into contact (68% of times in possession)making 151 metres , beating 18 defenders and scoring 3 tries with 0 assists.
He has been used 26 times as a lineout target and like Ruddock is heavily involved in lineout work
He has also captained Munster all season

By the way the B O'Mahoney referred to v Scarlets is another flanker Barry O'Mahoney. Also POM did not play v the Dragons in November. That was also Barry O'Mahoney.

ALL ABOVE STATS COMPILED FROM SCRUM.COM

POM is more effective in possession, more prolific and accurate in defence. Both are capable lineout jumpers and are both top class lineout operators. Neither lack for physicality although Ruddock does seem to lack elusiveness and awareness of space.When Leinster fans complain about MOCBALL maybe they should consider the effect of having a player in possession 121 times and only passing it 13 times.

Again though you are really missing the whole point (on purpose) aren't you?

You are the one dismissing Ruddock not Paddy dismissing POM. Paddy is pointing out this guy who is Ireland's starting 6 ie POM who Paddy agrees should be the starting 6 has similar stats to Ruddock yet based on these stats one is 'not of international ability'. You majorly based this whole rubbish on Ruddocks ability to tackle, which again Paddy has proved is similar to POM who we all think should be the starting 6. Please stop with the absolute garbage. Again I would pick TOD for the bench but either one (TOD or RR) would do a decent job if called upon I believe.

[Golf Man]

Well this has developed into a complete S@@tfest - nobdy is really covering themselves in glory here

[OTT]

Well this has developed into a complete S@@tfest - nobdy is really covering themselves in glory here

Like the Kilcoyne v Court debate in november?

Nah not really!

[fourthirtythree]

If we're dismissing the Wolfhounds game as being an outlier, as you seem to be suggesting, we should probably dismiss the Pro 12 game against Glasgow for POM where he made a whopping 19 tackles! Which is nearly two and a half times as many as he made in any other match.

Ruddock as I've said was excellent on Saturday night and really led the 2nd half defensive effort. He did lead the tackling stats. However the
loose heads contributed 19/1
the hookers 20/3
the tightheads 15/2
Tuohy 16/1
Henderson and his replacement Diack 18/3
Ruddock 19/2
O'Donnell and his replacement Murphy 21/3
Copeland 12/2 (lack of tackles offset by 3 turnovers, Ruddock was the only other forward to force a turnover)

As you see a huge defensive effort by all the pack .

As you can see he tackled as much as any two players on the park? And as I pointed out before in Leinster huge tackle stats from the props are the norm. We've had the "no.6 must lead the tackle stats" to death here last year when POM was making 3-4 a match. And surely everyone can now agree that it's not always the case and depends on what the balance of the back row is and what their jobs are (see also "Jamie Heaslip doesn't carry enough for an 8 etc.". Fuller stats are required to make sense of a back row (or second row or anyone else's) input into the contest for the ball: how often they were second man to a ruck, how often they made a decisive contribution at a ruck etc. I guarantee you that Ruddock is good enough for international rugby and that he does his business as required by the coach that sends him out. He is neither too slow for a 6 nor does he tackle too little.

EDIT
That doesn't mean I'd pick him for the Scotland match by the way.

[All Blacks nil]

Well this has developed into a complete S@@tfest - nobdy is really covering themselves in glory here

Like the Kilcoyne v Court debate in november?

Nah not really!

Well Joe definitely got that right

Nah, not really

[hugonaut]

He has won 3 turnovers and conceded 3 penalties

Those turnover ['TO'] statistics on Scrum.com are for turnovers conceded, All Blacks Nil. Unfortunately there's no record of how many times a given player turned another player over. So in this instance, Ruddock was turned over three times.

[OTT]

Well this has developed into a complete S@@tfest - nobdy is really covering themselves in glory here

Like the Kilcoyne v Court debate in november?

Nah not really!

Well Joe definitely got that right

Nah, not really

Yeah because neither of them played a bloody minute in November, well worth all that whineing.

[Golf Man]

If we're dismissing the Wolfhounds game as being an outlier, as you seem to be suggesting, we should probably dismiss the Pro 12 game against Glasgow for POM where he made a whopping 19 tackles! Which is nearly two and a half times as many as he made in any other match.

Ruddock as I've said was excellent on Saturday night and really led the 2nd half defensive effort. He did lead the tackling stats. However the
loose heads contributed 19/1
the hookers 20/3
the tightheads 15/2
Tuohy 16/1
Henderson and his replacement Diack 18/3
Ruddock 19/2
O'Donnell and his replacement Murphy 21/3
Copeland 12/2 (lack of tackles offset by 3 turnovers, Ruddock was the only other forward to force a turnover)

As you see a huge defensive effort by all the pack .

As you can see he tackled as much as any two players on the park? And as I pointed out before in Leinster huge tackle stats from the props are the norm. We've had the "no.6 must lead the tackle stats" to death here last year when POM was making 3-4 a match. And surely everyone can now agree that it's not always the case and depends on what the balance of the back row is and what their jobs are (see also "Jamie Heaslip doesn't carry enough for an 8 etc.". Fuller stats are required to make sense of a back row (or second row or anyone else's) input into the contest for the ball: how often they were second man to a ruck, how often they made a decisive contribution at a ruck etc. I guarantee you that Ruddock is good enough for international rugby and that he does his business as required by the coach that sends him out. He is neither too slow for a 6 nor does he tackle too little.

EDIT
That doesn't mean I'd pick him for the Scotland match by the way.

This - I think this started as a discussion for the bench backrow position. It has since got bogged down completely. Of all countries we should be knowledgeable about the backrow as a unit, rather than three individual positions, given we haven't had a "traditional" 7 in years. I've no doubt that POM/Henry and Heaslip are a good way ahead of the other options at the moment, and can adapt their games - ie POM can tackle more, Healip can carry more in open play etc as required by the gameplan, the opposition and the 7 they are playing with. We are lucky that we have a freak in SOB (who can essentially lead the stats in tackles, carries and turnovers) but his injury, will probably mean a change in focus for the individual roles. It also gives an opportunity to the other backrows who have little or no experience at this level - TOD/Ruddock/Copeland/Murphy (I'd have the first two ahead of the second two atm) all have a big chance - we may see TOD selected as the most like for like replacement, we may see Ruddock selected as there may be deemed a requirement for more bulk. All 4 look like they are ready to step up to this level - we won't know until they get a chance, and hopefully a couple of them will get that this 6N

[Golf Man]

Well Joe definitely got that right

Nah, not really

Yeah because neither of them played a bloody minute in November, well worth all that whineing.

Well you could argue the fact that we had the same two looseheads in the 3 AI games was a lost opportunity - we are now into the scenario where injury permitting - the first five games at least of his tenure will have the same two LHs in the 23 - you could argue that thats not really squad building

[OTT]

Well Joe definitely got that right

Nah, not really

Yeah because neither of them played a bloody minute in November, well worth all that whineing.

Well you could argue the fact that we had the same two looseheads in the 3 AI games was a lost opportunity - we are now into the scenario where injury permitting - the first five games at least of his tenure will have the same two LHs in the 23 - you could argue that thats not really squad building

If you were someone who liked to argue that is true. Not you though eh Golfy

[Golf Man]

Well you could argue the fact that we had the same two looseheads in the 3 AI games was a lost opportunity - we are now into the scenario where injury permitting - the first five games at least of his tenure will have the same two LHs in the 23 - you could argue that thats not really squad building

If you were someone who liked to argue that is true. Not you though eh Golfy

I'll give it a rattle now and then

Some players/posters have that effect on me - and some are too easy to annoy not to argue with

I'm generally right though so its all good

[simonokeeffe]

am agreeing with Golf Man again

although if you consider Tom Court was thrown into the recycling bin then blooding McGrath would count as squad rebuilding

[Oldschool]

Squad building.
Assumptions.
1. Any player in the extended international squad will be available for RWC injury permitting.
2. Three players required for each specialist position eg LH prop and at least 2.5 players required for non specialist positions eg 5 SRs

Current position and contenders:
LH Prop: Healy, McGrath, Killer, Cronin
Hooker: Strauss, Best, Cronin, Sherry
TH Prop: Ross, Moore, White, Archer
SR: POC, McCarthy, Touhy
SR: Toner, Henderson, Ryan
BR6: POM, Ruddock, McLaughlin
BR7: SOB, Henry, TOD
BR8: Heaslip, Copeland, Murphy
SH: Murray, Reddan, Marmion
OH: Sexton, Jackson, Madigan, Keatley
IC: Marshall, D'Arcy, Olding, Hanrahan
OC: Payne, Fitzgerald, Henshaw, Cave
Wing: Kearney, Zebo, Earls
Wing: Bowe, McFadden, Allen
FB: Kearney, Jones

Joe has plenty of material to work with their.
No doubt I've missed a few, no slight intended.
Edit 1 Hanrahan added.

[fourthirtythree]

am agreeing with Golf Man again

although if you consider Tom Court was thrown into the recycling bin then blooding McGrath would count as squad rebuilding

Forward thinking too: Kilcoyne already had caps!

I don't think it mattered much but if neither of them were going to get game time Kilcoyne was a better option to be in the squad.

[dropkick]

On the subject of tackle stats. I think its an area where stats can be misleading. For instance if you're in closer to the ruck you're going to be tackling more. The opposition usually run into you so a tackle is hard to avoid. If you're standing out wide you'll have to make less tackles but the tackles will be on players running faster therefore harder to make. Tackle stats also don't take into account if you're the second tackler or what kind of tackle you you.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

On the subject of tackle stats. I think its an area where stats can be misleading. For instance if you're in closer to the ruck you're going to be tackling more. The opposition usually run into you so a tackle is hard to avoid. If you're standing out wide you'll have to make less tackles but the tackles will be on players running faster therefore harder to make. Tackle stats also don't take into account if you're the second tackler or what kind of tackle you you.

I think Mike Ross only made one tackle against Australia because it was a wide and fast game. I might have the number wrong but it was certainly very low anyway.

[ronk]

On the subject of tackle stats. I think its an area where stats can be misleading. For instance if you're in closer to the ruck you're going to be tackling more. The opposition usually run into you so a tackle is hard to avoid. If you're standing out wide you'll have to make less tackles but the tackles will be on players running faster therefore harder to make. Tackle stats also don't take into account if you're the second tackler or what kind of tackle you you.

Stats need interpretation, tackle stats depend on the oppositions willingness to run at you. Blindsides, in particular, have a degree of control over that though. Opensides track the play more, blindsides can and should target their biggest ball carriers. In that case it's not so much about how many tackles, it's about who they're tackling and where they put themselves in the defensive system.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

One of the most important defensive aspects of our game against NZ was players tracking the inside when an All Black was being tackled so that they couldn't get the offload away. It took a savage effort from everyone and was very noticable and effective but not something that would be picked up in the stats.