Ireland V Wales, Six Nations 2014

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Nobody who watched Leinster should be surprised by it one bit!

I was a bit surprised that we didn't vary things more on Saturday (that's not a complaint btw) but have no doubt we'll see more creativity against England. We'll have to, their pack just won't allow us the platform we had against Wales and we won't be as happy to engage in the set pieces.

I wonder if not changing the plan had anything to do with the personnel though? Trimble and DK were both excellent but perhaps we'd have been more adventurous with Bowe, Luke, or Zebo on the wing?

[jezzer]

Thing with Murray is, and I don't mean to dump on him because he was a force of nature v NZ, awesome v Scotland, and much, much better than the lions 9 on the pitch tonight, that he can actually - and I'm sure will - get better. Please forgive my excessive punctuation. He can break more (he has more than he has recently with Ireland but I think he will get increasingly confident in what he has to do with Ireland and add that) and I think he over committed to the Trimble break (and Kearney hung back expecting the ball rather than joining in and protecting the ball. I think Murray could have scooped it out.).

Can I gush again about him and Sexton gelling? That. That sir is the f%~king best half back partnership going when they both hit their stride.

RE: Murray breaking, I think that's a Joe thing. Just look at Reddan in blue this year, he's made more breaks this season than ever before.
Joe wants his 9 ready to distribute, not carry.

Apologies if this has been addressed already, just reading through the forum now.

I think Joe is getting the players not to surrender in contact and not to go to ground easily/quickly, so we limit the risk of opposing backrows getting in and sealing off. Joe also seems to be reining in the solo runs for the same reason. You see us fighting for yards after contact, rolling as we hit the deck to buy time for supporting players. Looks very tactical to me.

[Oldschool]

There was an interview with Sexton on Off the Ball last night which was pretty interesting. He was asked how satisfying it must have been to excecute the game plan so effectively but said that they had 3 game plans and had looked at changing it during the game. They decided against it, including running one play from inside their own 22, because the game was going along well on plan A. It seems they went for an "if it aint broke don't fix" it gameplan, they may well have been able to execute more of a running game but it was not worth the risk and giving Wales any chance of momentum. I just thought it was interesting to hear as there has been some worry about the lack of expansive play. The players have the authority to change the game plan if they feel it's on so we may see more in Twickenham.

Jaysus Joe - only three games plans, sure the opposition will have us figured out in no time. A "must do better" on the report card.

[JB1973]

Gatland got used to being able to outfox us.

2009 6 Nations. Ireland.
2010 6 Nations. Ireland.
2011 6 Natons. Wales.
2011 RWC QF. Wales.
2012 6 Nations. Wales.
2013 6 Nations. Ireland.
2014 6 Nations. Ireland.

That is Gatland's record v Ireland since Declan Kidney took over. He outfoxed us in the RWC QF but you have to say there was more than a slight hint of luck about his two championship wins. The brutal officiating in Cardiff (although Phillips' try came with 30 mins to go, we still had ample time to turn it around, and maybe they would beaten us anyway etc) and then the brutal officiating in Dublin (not sending off Bradley Davies for the spear tackle and the rather harsh penalty against Stephen Ferris). You could say Wales were a kick of the ball from beating us in 2009 but as good as the QF win was, the 2010 and 2014 games were just as clinical and efficient as anything Wales managed against us.



You don't wanna blame luck or officiating too much (we've also benefited from both over the years) but I really think Gatland has gotten the rub of the green on one occasion too many. We still have a very record against them. Hopefully it continues.

works both ways, phillips try was incorrectly given, bradly davies should have been sent off but in the grand slam game Mark Jones makes a fair catch but instead of being given a mark and a chance to clear our lines, You get the throw in from it and score a try

some you get some you don't , but even if we had max boyce reffing sat we would have lost!

[suisse]

Gatland got used to being able to outfox us.

2009 6 Nations. Ireland.
2010 6 Nations. Ireland.
2011 6 Natons. Wales.
2011 RWC QF. Wales.
2012 6 Nations. Wales.
2013 6 Nations. Ireland.
2014 6 Nations. Ireland.

That is Gatland's record v Ireland since Declan Kidney took over. He outfoxed us in the RWC QF but you have to say there was more than a slight hint of luck about his two championship wins. The brutal officiating in Cardiff (although Phillips' try came with 30 mins to go, we still had ample time to turn it around, and maybe they would beaten us anyway etc) and then the brutal officiating in Dublin (not sending off Bradley Davies for the spear tackle and the rather harsh penalty against Stephen Ferris). You could say Wales were a kick of the ball from beating us in 2009 but as good as the QF win was, the 2010 and 2014 games were just as clinical and efficient as anything Wales managed against us.



You don't wanna blame luck or officiating too much (we've also benefited from both over the years) but I really think Gatland has gotten the rub of the green on one occasion too many. We still have a very record against them. Hopefully it continues.

works both ways, phillips try was incorrectly given, bradly davies should have been sent off but in the grand slam game Mark Jones makes a fair catch but instead of being given a mark and a chance to clear our lines, You get the throw in from it and score a try

some you get some you don't , but even if we had max boyce reffing sat we would have lost!

Indeed. I agree with you. I just don't think Gatland "outfoxed" us as much as people seem to think. He did so in the 2011 RWC QF but a lot of the games have been decided on marginal calls.

[ronk]

I tend to remember a lot of the strengths and weaknesses of Kidney in terms of his record against Gatland. Wales showed the way in terms of directly negating our tactics.

Scoring wise the trend for the last while has been that Wales win if they're within a score a halftime. Kidney had a plan A, if that got us clear, we'd be able to hold on or even improve if the opposition got sloppy. If plan A didn't work, we were very beatable and it might well end up taking luck or heroic effort to steer us home.

Even when Wales got ahead with a bit of luck, it seemed like they might well have done so sooner or later. We didn't look like we had that in the tank.

[simonokeeffe]

Having watched highlights again I think there was a deliberate ploy to seek Warburton out in contact so as primary tackler it was harder for him to compete for the ball

[JB1973]

Gatland has what 4 wins out of 8 vs Ireland? ? Granted we 3 of those were very tight affairs and could have gone either way but compared to his predecessors he has done great against Ireland! . I think our record prior to that was 1 win from 8? . Only Ruddock was able to get a win, henry,hansen,johnson and Jenkins were all well beaten ,so while Gatland has not outfoxed Ireland (bar the chop tackle tactic in the world cup) he has at least been able to get us to a 50/50 record vs you guys.

On a side NOTE I would say since England world cup win in 2003, Ireland have had the strongest pool of players in Europe and to have only won 1 grand slam//championship in that time is a poor return.

Although if you had a coach of the quality of Schmidt in that period you would have picked up at least a few more

[outcast eddie]

Scott Williams out...

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/s ... 03539.html

[Fireworks]

Scott Williams out...

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/s ... 03539.html

That should be a good warning to anyone else who is thinking of trying to tackle out BOD.

[Oldschool]

Gatland has what 4 wins out of 8 vs Ireland? ? Granted we 3 of those were very tight affairs and could have gone either way but compared to his predecessors he has done great against Ireland! . I think our record prior to that was 1 win from 8? . Only Ruddock was able to get a win, henry,hansen,johnson and Jenkins were all well beaten ,so while Gatland has not outfoxed Ireland (bar the chop tackle tactic in the world cup) he has at least been able to get us to a 50/50 record vs you guys.

On a side NOTE I would say since England world cup win in 2003, Ireland have had the strongest pool of players in Europe and to have only won 1 grand slam//championship in that time is a poor return.

Although if you had a coach of the quality of Schmidt in that period you would have picked up at least a few more

I would go one further - We could easily have got a SF or F in the RWC had we had a coach of Joe's quality.
EOS was a good bit better than Dekko but both were totally NOT prepared to develop a squad big enough to take us to the next stage.
You will have gathered that I'm no fan of either and I would include the cabal behind them in that.
Many international quality players were ignored or treated as bit part players.
Players like Trevor Brennan, Eric Miller for example.
There is a very good chance that Jamie Heaslip would never have become the key player he is, if Denis Leamy had not been forced to retire.
Compared to Heaslip, Leamy was a journeyman but the coach didn't seemed to get it (or maybe didn't want to).
When I read stuff in the press about the Irish public being being perplexed at the success of your team and lack of success of our team in comparison my blood boils because it's a blatant lie. The Irish public know why and it's one of the reasons why attendances had started to fall at the Aviva. People were voting with their feet and this thankfully must have influenced the decision to move away from an Irish coach to Joe, who at least was a local.
It is one of my own personal regrets that great players like BOD will retire from the game without ever getting a chance of tilt at the RWC title.
And if you think that a lot of the above is fanciful, you've only to look at your own near miss in RWC2011 where because of the unlucky (I don't think he's a dirty player at all tbh) sending off of Warburton you probably would have made it the final.

[suisse]

Gatland has what 4 wins out of 8 vs Ireland? ? Granted we 3 of those were very tight affairs and could have gone either way but compared to his predecessors he has done great against Ireland! . I think our record prior to that was 1 win from 8? . Only Ruddock was able to get a win, henry,hansen,johnson and Jenkins were all well beaten ,so while Gatland has not outfoxed Ireland (bar the chop tackle tactic in the world cup) he has at least been able to get us to a 50/50 record vs you guys.

Yeah, not dismissing his record, just don't agree with "getting used to outfoxing us"

His record over us is irrelevant though when compared to the 3 Championships (2 Grand Slams) and RWC SF. That's pretty much all that matters.

[ronk]

Gatland has what 4 wins out of 8 vs Ireland? ? Granted we 3 of those were very tight affairs and could have gone either way but compared to his predecessors he has done great against Ireland! . I think our record prior to that was 1 win from 8? . Only Ruddock was able to get a win, henry,hansen,johnson and Jenkins were all well beaten ,so while Gatland has not outfoxed Ireland (bar the chop tackle tactic in the world cup) he has at least been able to get us to a 50/50 record vs you guys.

On a side NOTE I would say since England world cup win in 2003, Ireland have had the strongest pool of players in Europe and to have only won 1 grand slam//championship in that time is a poor return.

Although if you had a coach of the quality of Schmidt in that period you would have picked up at least a few more

If you discount the first two years, and 2010 was the year when Andy Powell was driving golf carts so it's hard to expect Wales to outfox anyone with him in the team, then the Kidney record becomes 3 losses out of 4.

Gatland changed tactics away from meat heads and prospered as the game changed. Kidney got his changes wrong because he wouldn't change the important parts of his system and that started to get exposed. Kidney is a good coach, but relatively one-dimensional.

I wouldn't necessarily say that we had the best pool of players. We had a central contracts system that allowed us to punch above our weight until other countries started to catch up. EOS and Kidney (at first) had a really good idea in terms of squad management that was built around getting the best our of a very small squad. EOS took a huge risk for the 2007 RWC and got his preparations wrong, but he was going for broke and I can understand why he did it. They both started to change, but it was a bit late and not fully embraced.

Like Woodward's sides, we were solid and had good records but were susceptible to slipping up. Munster were in the Heineken Cup final in 2000 but couldn't string the results together until 2006. 2007 wasn't much of a defence. Cheika couldn't follow up his win either. Joe could, and there's a reason for that in his philosophy. It's the same reason why the idea of not winning the Amlin wasn't taken seriously. It was just as important to him and to the team as the Heineken Cup.

It may take a while for many Ireland fans to fully grasp this.

[TrapperChamonix]

Jeese Ronk, you have very high standards for defending champions. We lost away in the SF to the eventual winners.

[Oldschool]

Gatland has what 4 wins out of 8 vs Ireland? ? Granted we 3 of those were very tight affairs and could have gone either way but compared to his predecessors he has done great against Ireland! . I think our record prior to that was 1 win from 8? . Only Ruddock was able to get a win, henry,hansen,johnson and Jenkins were all well beaten ,so while Gatland has not outfoxed Ireland (bar the chop tackle tactic in the world cup) he has at least been able to get us to a 50/50 record vs you guys.

On a side NOTE I would say since England world cup win in 2003, Ireland have had the strongest pool of players in Europe and to have only won 1 grand slam//championship in that time is a poor return.

Although if you had a coach of the quality of Schmidt in that period you would have picked up at least a few more

If you discount the first two years, and 2010 was the year when Andy Powell was driving golf carts so it's hard to expect Wales to outfox anyone with him in the team, then the Kidney record becomes 3 losses out of 4.

Gatland changed tactics away from meat heads and prospered as the game changed. Kidney got his changes wrong because he wouldn't change the important parts of his system and that started to get exposed. Kidney is a good coach, but relatively one-dimensional.

I wouldn't necessarily say that we had the best pool of players. We had a central contracts system that allowed us to punch above our weight until other countries started to catch up. EOS and Kidney (at first) had a really good idea in terms of squad management that was built around getting the best our of a very small squad. EOS took a huge risk for the 2007 RWC and got his preparations wrong, but he was going for broke and I can understand why he did it. They both started to change, but it was a bit late and not fully embraced.

Like Woodward's sides, we were solid and had good records but were susceptible to slipping up. Munster were in the Heineken Cup final in 2000 but couldn't string the results together until 2006. 2007 wasn't much of a defence. Cheika couldn't follow up his win either. Joe could, and there's a reason for that in his philosophy. It's the same reason why the idea of not winning the Amlin wasn't taken seriously. It was just as important to him and to the team as the Heineken Cup.

It may take a while for many Ireland fans to fully grasp this.

Building your plans based on what was without doubt an unnecessarily small squad was bad management.
Lets call a spade a spade here.
EOS' and Dekko's Irelands underachieved because both coaches had the wrong policy in place. Neither of them used the bench either as a tactical weapon or as a means to improve the size and quality of their squad. In addition they isolated proven campaigners like Trevor Brennan and Eric Miller.
Re writing history is the last thing that should be done now, they got it wrong and if we don't get that conclusion right then when Joe is gone it'll be normal service resumed and provincialism will once again be the order of the day.
There is a reason we underachieved big time and it has everything to do with the coaches in charge at the time.
Proof of the pudding: Look at EOS' coaching CV since his Ireland days and he's by far a much better coach than Dekko.
I expect Dekko's post Ireland CV to read similarly in a few years.
And it'll be a good thing for Ireland if it does because it'll be a message to other like minded coaches of their likely destiny should they choose to follow the same path.

[olaf the fat]

I would not be too hard on either EOS or DK, yes they had their faults but they collected a grand slam, lots of triple crowns and a couple of hcups between them.

At the time, we as fans could see the failure to trust anybody but 15 players (Munster forwards leinster backs -safe) was wrong. But remember how long it took for Irish teams to dominate in Europe, in EOS day we were still grappling with professionalism! Yes we should of produced better results, and often failed to take the last step required. Things are a lot more mature now

[Wasp]

I think people need to get a bit of a grip regarding Irish coaches, past and present.

There is little doubt that Schmidt has been exceptionally successful as Leinster coach, and in most peoples perspectives, has taken coaching to a different level to what we have experienced before. This is not luck, although he has been blessed with good structures and a very talented & experienced player pool (something many other coaches have had but not produced anything near the results he has produced). He has made a very good start to his Ireland career and hopefully it will go from strength to strength.

Based on his results in the past 4 1/2 years, most ANY coaches record will be poor in comparison. In fact, that is my issue.

The 2 previous Irish coaches had varying degrees of success, but both were the most successful Irish coaches in recent memory.
We can all point to things that we disagree with regarding what they did, but you appoint a coach on the basis that they are the best person available for the job and they then have the right to make the decisions as they see fit.
The question I would ask is, who else would/should have been appointed as Irish coach if not EOS/DK?
The EOS V Gatland issue is an obvious point.
But after that had occurred, was there some outstanding candidate that was ignored?
Remember, DK, disliked as he is in Leinster circles is the most successful native Irish coach the country has produced, all the way from Schools Cups, World U20 success (only one I believe), 2 HEC's, a Grand Slam & 1st unbeaten record in a pool at the World Cup. One can see where he came up short as well, but was there an outstanding alternative candidate (apart from us key board warriors!!) that was ignored in his favour?

Genuine question!, I may be changing my perspective when some of the answers come in, but that is fair enough as well.

[OTT]

I think people need to get a bit of a grip regarding Irish coaches, past and present.

There is little doubt that Schmidt has been exceptionally successful as Leinster coach, and in most peoples perspectives, has taken coaching to a different level to what we have experienced before. This is not luck, although he has been blessed with good structures and a very talented & experienced player pool (something many other coaches have had but not produced anything near the results he has produced). He has made a very good start to his Ireland career and hopefully it will go from strength to strength.

Based on his results in the past 4 1/2 years, most ANY coaches record will be poor in comparison. In fact, that is my issue.

The 2 previous Irish coaches had varying degrees of success, but both were the most successful Irish coaches in recent memory.
We can all point to things that we disagree with regarding what they did, but you appoint a coach on the basis that they are the best person available for the job and they then have the right to make the decisions as they see fit.
The question I would ask is, who else would/should have been appointed as Irish coach if not EOS/DK?
The EOS V Gatland issue is an obvious point.
But after that had occurred, was there some outstanding candidate that was ignored?
Remember, DK, disliked as he is in Leinster circles is the most successful native Irish coach the country has produced, all the way from Schools Cups, World U20 success (only one I believe), 2 HEC's, a Grand Slam & 1st unbeaten record in a pool at the World Cup. One can see where he came up short as well, but was there an outstanding alternative candidate (apart from us key board warriors!!) that was ignored in his favour?

Genuine question!, I may be changing my perspective when some of the answers come in, but that is fair enough as well.

You are right in everything, for me they were the correct appointments. My issue is and has always been that EOS got a 3 or 4 year contract extension prior to the 2007 World Cup which is what he had been building the squad towards for 4 years he ultimately failed in this tournament and it was time to move on from Eddie but we couldnt. History repeating itself Declan Kidney received a 2 year extension prior to the 2011 World Cup which is what he had been building the squad towards since the Autumn of 2008 he ultimately failed in this tournament. A great performance against Australia and a decent win against the worst Italian team since they joined the 6 nations aside we sucked it up against the Yanks, Russians and Wales in the Quarters after this tournament it was time to move on with a different approach but but but we couldnt again. The next two years were very depressing as an Irish person and fan of rugby. Listening to what this fella and that fella could do while we played complete cack.

After the 2007 All Blacks loss to France in the infamous quarter final the All Blacks interviewed for the top job. Graham Henry had to re apply for his position along with others. Why do we not do something similar, why do we reward prematurely? If Schmidt is offered a 4 year contract prior to the 2015 World Cup I will feel similar. It is the same nonsence as giving Gatland the 2017 Lions gig now (although i wouldnt mind personally seeing him whitewashed 3-0).

[Wasp]

I can see where you are coming from, can't disagree.

[Edna Kenny]

I think with EOS's contract extension it was off the back of some very good results and we went into that world cup with a lot of optimism. Pretty sure we had beaten SA and Oz convincingly in the previous autumn and then lost the 6 nations championship, losing at home to France in what would otherwise have been a grand slam. I don't remember thinking at the time it was a bad move. The world cup was an absolute disaster and it all just fell apart after that. I'd say in the IRFU's head they saw us possibly getting to a world cup semi final and then losing EOS. It's easy with hindsight. I think they also thought it would give a boost to the team by giving a vote of confidence before the world cup.

It's better to let contracts run till the end of a world cup. That way it gives everyone a chance to see where they are after the tournament. If you are successful then getting a new coach would be easier anyway and you would have cash to pay them well.