Ireland V Wales, Six Nations 2014

[Oldschool]

EOS and Kidney were shoe horned into the jobs. Any suggestion of their being another candidate never mind their suitability was ignored.
Neither of them showed any ability to evolve and yet both were given contract extensions, both of which proved to be disasters.
That of course points the finger elsewhere and in the end I'm happy Joe got the job because Dekko made such a mess of it. I'm pretty sure that if Dekko had been as successful as EOS even, we'd have got another lemon appointment.
As a result we Joe the Kiwi, the fruit that can fly. Happy Days.

[Lar]

I think with EOS's contract extension it was off the back of some very good results and we went into that world cup with a lot of optimism. Pretty sure we had beaten SA and Oz convincingly in the previous autumn and then lost the 6 nations championship, losing at home to France in what would otherwise have been a grand slam. I don't remember thinking at the time it was a bad move. The world cup was an absolute disaster and it all just fell apart after that. I'd say in the IRFU's head they saw us possibly getting to a world cup semi final and then losing EOS. It's easy with hindsight. I think they also thought it would give a boost to the team by giving a vote of confidence before the world cup.

It's better to let contracts run till the end of a world cup. That way it gives everyone a chance to see where they are after the tournament. If you are successful then getting a new coach would be easier anyway and you would have cash to pay them well.

I remember a lot of people saying at the time that it was mad giving him another four years in advance of the World Cup. But equally there were some people who felt that we needed to tie him down to a contract. Less than the former if memory serves though.

[Golf Man]

There always has been a lot of revisionism when it comes to previous coaches and people have always gone completely overboard in their praise at the start of coaches reigns as well

For starters Oldschool Kidney was more successful than EOS

Kidneys first two 6N games were a 30-21 win v France (where we played great stuff) and a 5 try away win in Italy - this is just as good as Schmidt did in his first two games (and with a lot more style). Kidney was by a mile the best man for the job at the time. Bearing in mind that he was dealing with a Leinster team that hadn't delivered on its potential at that stage.

Any statement that if Schmidt was coach we would have won however many championships is heresay and totally unfounded

He's an excellent excellent coach but the smoke that is being blown up his ass is almost embarrassing - he did not reinvent the wheel when he came to leinster - he took over a team which had already won a HC and been in the semi final the year before, and he had huge experience and youth. He did better than could have been imagined, but he had a great base to start with. Schmidt, like every other coach in the world, will have his foibles and issues - this whole saintly narrative is bullshit

We have an atrocious record at international level - its very easy to blame EOS or DK, but look at our record as a whole - our "golden" era was 1948 - 1951 when we won 3 championships in 4 years (only 1 GS obviously) - 6 coaches in 7 world cups have failed to get to a semi final, we have never beaten NZ, our record away v France is desperate etc. Both EOS and especially DK contributed, but their terms ultimately ended badly, which again is pretty much how we roll

What we have now is a coach, who technically, appears to be as good as there is. He is also the best PR wise by an absolute mile. That said people who cream themselves every time they hear talk about the "homework" or the "system" etc etc drive me mental. We don't know what coaches did because they took a different approach to delaing with the media end of things. Schmidts approach worked to perfection in Leinster, but he is now in a very different environment and we simply don't know how it will pan out. Its been a hugely encouraging start to the 6N, but it was right to dismiss the harsh criticisms post Oz in teh AIs, it is now just as right to dismiss the ass kissing post Scotland & Wales.

I'm confident that we will be consistent under Schmidt - which would be a huge huge plus, as we've been lacking it for well almost for ever. I'm also confident that we will be good. Where will be in three years time - f**k knows but I wouldn't bet (purely on history, nothing personal) on everything being quite as rosy. If Schmidt wins a championship this year, it would imo be as good as anything he achieved with Leinster - if we win the grand slam (and there is a half decent chance) - I'll contact the Vatican myself

[Oldschool]

There always has been a lot of revisionism when it comes to previous coaches and people have always gone completely overboard in their praise at the start of coaches reigns as well

For starters Oldschool Kidney was more successful than EOS

Kidneys first two 6N games were a 30-21 win v France (where we played great stuff) and a 5 try away win in Italy - this is just as good as Schmidt did in his first two games (and with a lot more style). Kidney was by a mile the best man for the job at the time. Bearing in mind that he was dealing with a Leinster team that hadn't delivered on its potential at that stage.

Any statement that if Schmidt was coach we would have won however many championships is heresay and totally unfounded

He's an excellent excellent coach but the smoke that is being blown up his ass is almost embarrassing - he did not reinvent the wheel when he came to leinster - he took over a team which had already won a HC and been in the semi final the year before, and he had huge experience and youth. He did better than could have been imagined, but he had a great base to start with. Schmidt, like every other coach in the world, will have his foibles and issues - this whole saintly narrative is bullshit

We have an atrocious record at international level - its very easy to blame EOS or DK, but look at our record as a whole - our "golden" era was 1948 - 1951 when we won 3 championships in 4 years (only 1 GS obviously) - 6 coaches in 7 world cups have failed to get to a semi final, we have never beaten NZ, our record away v France is desperate etc. Both EOS and especially DK contributed, but their terms ultimately ended badly, which again is pretty much how we roll

What we have now is a coach, who technically, appears to be as good as there is. He is also the best PR wise by an absolute mile. That said people who cream themselves every time they hear talk about the "homework" or the "system" etc etc drive me mental. We don't know what coaches did because they took a different approach to delaing with the media end of things. Schmidts approach worked to perfection in Leinster, but he is now in a very different environment and we simply don't know how it will pan out. Its been a hugely encouraging start to the 6N, but it was right to dismiss the harsh criticisms post Oz in teh AIs, it is now just as right to dismiss the ass kissing post Scotland & Wales.

I'm confident that we will be consistent under Schmidt - which would be a huge huge plus, as we've been lacking it for well almost for ever. I'm also confident that we will be good. Where will be in three years time - f**k knows but I wouldn't bet (purely on history, nothing personal) on everything being quite as rosy. If Schmidt wins a championship this year, it would imo be as good as anything he achieved with Leinster - if we win the grand slam (and there is a half decent chance) - I'll contact the Vatican myself

As I said GM, I'm happy now. EOS and Dekko can look after their own futures. Leave the Vatican to me BTW.

[ronk]

Building your plans based on what was without doubt an unnecessarily small squad was bad management.
Lets call a spade a spade here.
EOS' and Dekko's Irelands underachieved because both coaches had the wrong policy in place. Neither of them used the bench either as a tactical weapon or as a means to improve the size and quality of their squad. In addition they isolated proven campaigners like Trevor Brennan and Eric Miller.
Re writing history is the last thing that should be done now, they got it wrong and if we don't get that conclusion right then when Joe is gone it'll be normal service resumed and provincialism will once again be the order of the day.
There is a reason we underachieved big time and it has everything to do with the coaches in charge at the time.
Proof of the pudding: Look at EOS' coaching CV since his Ireland days and he's by far a much better coach than Dekko.
I expect Dekko's post Ireland CV to read similarly in a few years.
And it'll be a good thing for Ireland if it does because it'll be a message to other like minded coaches of their likely destiny should they choose to follow the same path.

Ireland turned from perennial losers to regular winners on the back of following a risky strategy that we were particularly well placed to try to implement due to our response to professionalism. We hadn't a hope of competing with England or France by copying their systems and methods, we didn't have that player pool.

What we could do is pick young players in key positions and throw every resource, all the attention and gametime and ensure that their entire careers were built around filling a role within the system. The whole team learnt to play to the strenths and cover the weaknesses of guys like Horan, Hayes, Stringer, O'Gara and Horgan. We generally played a rebalanced backrow for years and avoided traditional 7s.

When you can develop someone into a system and build the system around people for 50 caps, you can learn to get the best out of them. It suited us to have coaches who had that mindset. Our win/loss record is fine, maybe we even overachieved, we probably should have come away with more championships, but that wasn't really that aspect of the system. It was other flaws in the coaches and team.

[Wasp]

EOS and Kidney were shoe horned into the jobs. Any suggestion of their being another candidate never mind their suitability was ignored.

It's comments like this that I have a real problem with.
It is a generic comment that can be thrown out in any situation.

Who was the other more suitable candidate?

[Oldschool]

EOS and Kidney were shoe horned into the jobs. Any suggestion of their being another candidate never mind their suitability was ignored.

It's comments like this that I have a real problem with.
It is a generic comment that can be thrown out in any situation.

Who was the other more suitable candidate?

You mean to say you are unaware of the fact that EOS was assigned as asst. coach to Gatty and roughly a year later Gatty get's the boot and EOS is in.
There was no debate and it may even have been the right decision early on but later on..........
After EOS and the unabashed favouritism shown to munster players at the time quite a few people would not have wanted Dekko anywhere near the Irish job.
We'd been bitten once and were quite shy about Dekko getting the job. In other words pretty much any foreign coach with the right credentials would have fitted the bill.

[Wasp]

You mean to say you are unaware of the fact that EOS was assigned as asst. coach to Gatty and roughly a year later Gatty get's the boot and EOS is in.
There was no debate and it may even have been the right decision early on but later on..........
After EOS and the unabashed favouritism shown to munster players at the time quite a few people would not have wanted Dekko anywhere near the Irish job.
We'd been bitten once and were quite shy about Dekko getting the job. In other words pretty much any foreign coach with the right credentials would have fitted the bill.

I referenced the EOS V Gatland point in a previous post.
What do you mean by 'there was no debate'?
Not being smart, but what do you believe should have happened, a referendum?

Regarding EOS selections, I think you are mixing up cause and effect.
The general perception with EOS is that it was harder to get out of his team than into his team.
Because a lot of the incumbent players were from Munster, the effect of this was that it appeared that he was favouring Munster players.
However, the same issue arose regarding other players - Simon Easterby for instance.

Regarding Kidney, it would have been extraordinary if the IRFU had passed over the most successful indigenous coach Ireland had ever produced to pick a foreign coach for the International team. What signal would that send to all future potential coaches in Ireland? Who else applied for the Irish job when Kidney got it?
It would not have been dissimilar to the IRFU passing over JS for the Irish job this time round except that they would have been passing over an Irish man for the top job.

Mind you, on a separate but related issue, I can't believe that we have arrived at a situation where there is not one indigenous head coach in the four provinces. I understand the competitive pressures in the 3 bigger provinces but Lam in Connacht is a joke. Elwood was a great choice in Connacht previously, surely there was someone in a similar vein that could have been appointed.
You have Conor O'Shea in Harlequins, McCall in Saracens, Jackman will be taking over in Grenoble, and all we have in Ireland is the prospect of Foley taking over in Munster.

[ronk]

, and all we have in Ireland is the prospect of Foley taking over in Munster.

Well that's the issue, isn't it. It's not a good market for Irish coaches to get major jobs and it's been exacerbated by the delays in updating the game.

We're both too big and too small at the same time.

[Wasp]

Well that's the issue, isn't it. It's not a good market for Irish coaches to get major jobs and it's been exacerbated by the delays in updating the game.

We're both too big and too small at the same time.

Not sure what the phrase 'exacerbated by delays in updating the game' means.

Agree that we are both too big (in club size) and too small (in the number of clubs) at the same time.

[Edna Kenny]

You have Conor O'Shea in Harlequins, McCall in Saracens, Jackman will be taking over in Grenoble, and all we have in Ireland is the prospect of Foley taking over in Munster.

Wasp. Foley taking over Munster is exactly what you are looking for isn't it? An indigenous coach taking over a provincial team, so that's one out of the 4 sorted. The irish coaches working abroad may not even want the jobs, Conor O'Shea is committed to Quins and good luck to him. If the Leinster/Ulster position became available he might be a candidate if it suited him. I don't see why it's essential to have irish coaches unless they are the right guys for the job and the job is right for them. I don't know that Leinster would have been as successful without bringing in overseas coaches.

Guys like Jackman are learning their trade abroad, Leo Cullen will be learning it at Leinster next year, Girv is doing a great job with the A team. If these guys show enough promise I don't see why there won't be more irish head coaches in the next few years.

[Wasp]

Wasp. Foley taking over Munster is exactly what you are looking for isn't it? An indigenous coach taking over a provincial team, so that's one out of the 4 sorted. The irish coaches working abroad may not even want the jobs, Conor O'Shea is committed to Quins and good luck to him. If the Leinster/Ulster position became available he might be a candidate if it suited him. I don't see why it's essential to have irish coaches unless they are the right guys for the job and the job is right for them. I don't know that Leinster would have been as successful without bringing in overseas coaches.

Guys like Jackman are learning their trade abroad, Leo Cullen will be learning it at Leinster next year, Girv is doing a great job with the A team. If these guys show enough promise I don't see why there won't be more irish head coaches in the next few years.

My view is that, no less than players, the union should look to develop their own coaches.
I don't believe that they have placed much (or enough) emphasis on this.
A very successful indigenous coach is far more likely to hang around for longer than a non-indigenous coach (likely head off to coach in his own country - i.e. use the job as a stepping stone). The same way that Irish players remain in Ireland for less than they would be paid abroad.

I would probably disagree with the route Foley took - I would prefer to have seen him move abroad and then return with a greater breadth of knowledge and experience. There is no guarantee he will be successful, only time will tell.
My preference would be more the way Jackman/O'Gara have gone.

I agree that the emphasis should be on the right person for the job, but no less than favouring Irish based players V Irish qualified players playing abroad, I think the same should apply on the coaching side (for Irish coaches V non-Irish coaches).
How many non New Zealand coaches are there in the NZ system (genuine question)?

[fourthirtythree]

I think we all hope Jackman and O'Gara will be back and bring something to the Irish game from the experience. If it's playing Top 14 rugby though I hope they leave it behind.
I think it's Foley's time. If he was the equivalent at Leinster I think I'd feel that too.
Leinster have gone with young, inexperienced coaches in recent years. Hasn't hurt us too much. Promoting from within is a risk, but so is bringing in an outsider. The Leinster organisation have proved themselves adept in their hirings recently and I think Penney was a good hire for Munster.

[JB1973]

indigenous coaches at national level always run the risk of being accused of bias to players from their old club which in may ways is why a overseas coach is a better bet (although Schmidt with his leinster background is slightly different)

In an ideal world I'm guessing we would all want a regional/provincial/club coach be an ex player who has a feeling for that side and the area and is someone the players and fans can relate to.

However in this high stakes world of professional rugby sentiment counts for very little and sides will always go for the best man for the job and if we are being realistic are all the best people for all the coaching jobs are going to be from within our own areas? .

A little but of outside influence is always helpful and also prevents a "jobs for the boys" culture (the scarlets are a prime example of this)

If Irish (or in my case welsh coaches) are good enough they will get a job somewhere be it England,france, Italy or Scotland etc etc

[Edna Kenny]

Wasp,on one hand you're saying that the union should develop their own coaches. Yet on the other you are disagreeing with the route Foley has taken. You were asking why someone in the same vein as Elwood couldn't have taken over at Connacht. How can the IRFU develop coaches if we are sending them abroad to develop? (I think it's a good thing for coaches to work abroad BTW)

I don't know that a coach sticking around for a long time is necessarily a good thing. We could probably still have Kidney coaching Ireland as I am sure he would have stayed on. Having a coach on the rise is not a bad thing, if things go well forJoe I can see him moving on to a bigger international job but that would presumably have to be on the back of success with Ireland. Most coaches don't stick around for longer than 4 or 5 years, sometimes a refresh is needed for all parties.

Irish players can only play for Ireland (once capped) so they can't jump ship. The coach can come from anywhere, they still have to get paid.

[Wasp]

I think Penney was a good hire for Munster.

I would agree that Penney was a good hire for Munster, in fact the way he left informs part of my thinking on this issue.

To any coach like Penney, a Provincial coaching job is a stepping stone either to a Super rugby job or a national job (usually at home).
You also have the complication of their personal circumstances (I understand this played a significant role in Penney's decision not to take up the additional year at Munster).

To an Irish coach, it will usually be a stepping stone to the national job (much the same was as it is in NZ).
An Irish coach (of equivalent ability) in Penney's situation would have taken on the year option & Munster would have had the additional continuity that they wanted.

[Wasp]

indigenous coaches at national level always run the risk of being accused of bias to players from their old club which in may ways is why a overseas coach is a better bet (although Schmidt with his leinster background is slightly different)

In an ideal world I'm guessing we would all want a regional/provincial/club coach be an ex player who has a feeling for that side and the area and is someone the players and fans can relate to.

However in this high stakes world of professional rugby sentiment counts for very little and sides will always go for the best man for the job and if we are being realistic are all the best people for all the coaching jobs are going to be from within our own areas? .

A little but of outside influence is always helpful and also prevents a "jobs for the boys" culture (the scarlets are a prime example of this)

If Irish (or in my case welsh coaches) are good enough they will get a job somewhere be it England,france, Italy or Scotland etc etc

I wouldn't expect that ALL the coaches are Irish, never mind from the same province, but it would be helpful if a reasonable proportion of them were.

The one that really amazes me is Lam in Connacht. In fairness, who thought he would be a good idea?

I would agree with the necessity for outside influence but would prefer them to come in at the assistant coach level rather than head coach. Also, I would expect most Irish coaches that get head coach jobs to have worked abroad to broaden their knowledge.
Remember, most of the coaches that have got the top jobs in Irish provinces have been relatively unproven. We seem to believe that an unproven coach from abroad is OK, we are not talking about the cream of coaches here.

Look at those on the last Munster short list (I now know because it was in the papers!) - Penney (think he was the first baby Blacks coach not to win the World Cup in ages, if ever) Tana Umanga ?????? and Foley. That list might have potential, but not much proven!

[Edna Kenny]

Who knows if an Irish coach would have taken a year extension? If their stock was rising and they were offered a longer contract on more money elsewhere they may well have taken it. Maybe Penney felt the year extension wasn't showing enough faith in him, or offering enough security and they were effectively just seeing out time before replacing him with Foley. Mark Anscombe has taken a 1 year extension on his deal at Ulster so there's nothing to say where you're from has any real bearing on whether you stay on or not.

[Wasp]

Wasp,on one hand you're saying that the union should develop their own coaches. Yet on the other you are disagreeing with the route Foley has taken. You were asking why someone in the same vein as Elwood couldn't have taken over at Connacht. How can the IRFU develop coaches if we are sending them abroad to develop? (I think it's a good thing for coaches to work abroad BTW)

I don't know that a coach sticking around for a long time is necessarily a good thing. We could probably still have Kidney coaching Ireland as I am sure he would have stayed on. Having a coach on the rise is not a bad thing, if things go well forJoe I can see him moving on to a bigger international job but that would presumably have to be on the back of success with Ireland. Most coaches don't stick around for longer than 4 or 5 years, sometimes a refresh is needed for all parties.

Irish players can only play for Ireland (once capped) so they can't jump ship. The coach can come from anywhere, they still have to get paid.

I think the current structures in the province probably provide an excellent opportunity to develop them through the A team structure.
They could either start with coaching the A team and then move abroad (effectively like a secondment or on looser terms) before returning to a assistant/head role. Or go the O'Gara route & aim to return.
The issue I would see is that the IRFU appear to have no real relationship with these people nor seem to value them (perhaps I am wrong).

The issue about longevity is more to do with the Penney example (where the coach leaves before the Province want him to leave), not to do with someone being there for 10 years (although Guy Noves has not done too bad!).

Schmidt is also a good example, if he is successful with Ireland, he will move on. If Joe was Irish & successful, he would not move on. There is a value to good indigenous coaches above simply supporter identification with the team.

[Wasp]

Who knows if an Irish coach would have taken a year extension? If their stock was rising and they were offered a longer contract on more money elsewhere they may well have taken it. Maybe Penney felt the year extension wasn't showing enough faith in him, or offering enough security and they were effectively just seeing out time before replacing him with Foley. Mark Anscombe has taken a 1 year extension on his deal at Ulster so there's nothing to say where you're from has any real bearing on whether you stay on or not.

I don't think you are being realistic here.
All coaches aspire to their national job. An Irish coach in the same position would likely say yes, look to continue to prove themselves so that they would be in a position to succeed Joe when his time was done.
The Foley situation may well have been a factor in Penney's decision but the vibes I have heard say that his family were unhappy & wanted to go back to NZ.
Anscombe has extended on one year, but, long term, his ambitions are likely to be coaching on the other side of the world, not in Ireland/Ulster. When he leaves, it is likely to be when it suits him rather than Ulster. It would be far preferable to have someone at the helm whose ultimate ambition lies in Ireland rather than abroad.