England V Ireland 6 Nations 2014

[paddyor]

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Your finest contribution yet.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Conor O'Shea called Ireland's game plan exactly: http://www.qberugby.com/england-rugby/n ... g-ireland/

In particular this:

Expect Joe Schmidt to ask Johnny Sexton to do exactly the same to England as he did to Wales and pepper England's rookie wings who are tight and narrow defensively leaving Mike Brown lots of room to cover at the back. Ireland will not kick the ball down Mike's throat because they know it will come back with interest, instead they will target the space in behind England's wings

Unfortunately the kicking was not always up to scratch and Mike Brown was everywhere.

When that happened, as GM said, we didn't seem to have a plan B. If it wasn't for the massive improvement in the forwards one could be forgiven for thinking Ireland were still using Kidney's go-to tactic of kicking the ball away at every available opportunity. Yes, we're just 6 games into Schmidt's tenure and yes, we're still in the driving seat for the Six Nations but I really hope we see more from the backs against Italy and France.

I expect changes for Italy but not many. Priority is the win and after that it's the points.

Sexton was terrible but that can happen. People have off days but I thought we didn't help ourselves with really poor communication, and that, combined with the fact that we kept up a tactic that wasn't working are what really annoyed me. I can think of two examples where Sexton kicked over the English midfield and nobody else had a clue that he was going to do it and so Sexton was the only one chasing. They were poor kicks and possibly the wrong option at those times anyway (although it was a tactic I was calling for) but only having Sexton chasing meant that England had a free ride once they gathered the kicks. That's shocking from us.

There was also the time when Sexton kicked cross field for Dave Kearney but Kearney didn't seem to know what the move was and the two of them had an argument afterwards. As I said, people can have bad games but thought we really compounded the issue with poor communication.

[Golf Man]

Paddy, you are trying your hardest but the hole is only getting bigger

First off you claim that the tactics were spot on, but its clear as day that they weren't - The forward tactic (that worked so well against much lesser packs in Wales and Scotland) needed to be implemented in a similar manner - which was done - pack were pretty good imo. But it needed to supplemented by something else in the backs, because we were never going to outmuscle England the way we did Wales and Scotland. If you can't acknowlegde that there no chance that you can be considered as anything but completely biased

Schmidts back play to date has been all about defence and is very negative - coming from a backline that is almost exclusively Schmidt era Leinster I'm suprised by this. However I've no issue with whatever gameplan he goes for - its a results business after all - but lets not ignore what we've seen. We have a pack who are providing an excellent platform off set piece and a good platform in open play - they were not out muscled by England. We have backs who either are playing to the gameplan or don't have the ability to make anything of the platform that they are being served up. Our backline play on Saturday was chasing kicks and little else - Kearney is showing a lot of intent but still lacks pace and hasn't learned to pass. Darcy and BOD are solid at this stage and despite huge effort offer very little attacking threats. Our two wingers have been solid, no real mistakes, but no real impact either.

While its very easy to talk about the opposition that Zebo since coming back in you are missing (or ignoring a couple of important points)

- The likes of Fitz, Kearney and McFadden have played loads of Rabo games, HC games etc including during international windows and never scored like Zebo has - they are simply not try scoring wingers (Fitz is the most potent from a scoring pov and obviously the most threatening as well). They have other very good qualities but they are not a hugely threatening bunch of wingers and certainly not "scoring wingers". Its very easy to manipulate stats to suit an arguement - try scoring is one of those that you can't.

- Zebo is not Fionn Carr, tearing it up in the Rabo. He has an excellent try scoring record, far far in excess of the three guys I've named. He also very importantly has delivered as he went up the levels (his record in HC is actually better than his record at Rabo). He has also delivered on the international stage. His early career defensive issues have been sorted, he has a great boot and is good in the air (ie he is not only a try scorer)

Would we have won playing he way we did if Zebo was in the team - probably not. Would have played a little differently if he was - probably.

If he is not brought into the squad this week then you have to ask serious questions of Schmidt making a judgement on a player that to my knowledge he has never had under his control in any training session. This is obviously all in light of our issues with the lack of threat/pace and exasperated by the injuries to Bowe, Fitz and Earls (if he chooses to pick the three of them ahead of Zebo - no complaints at all). Its very easy to dismiss the debate as just being about Zebo - its not - its is primarily about the fact that we have three front line wingers unavailable. He is essentially picking from 5 (Trimble, Kearney, McFadden, Zebo & Gilroy - if you choose to ignore the likes of Niall Morris, Michael Allen, Johne Murphy etc)

We have been very quick to dismiss Gatlandball - Wales have a Plan A and nothing else - we are in exactly the same boat. I think Schmidt can sort all this and that we have players who will make a big difference (including the insitu players playing a different game plan). The three guys he has selected may e teh best guys to implement the game plan. But lets not claim that the game plan doesn't need to be changed with regard to the backs.

What hole? I think the tactics were good enough to win the game with the team we had. We didn't. Some poor kicking, botched opportunities, and bad defending let us down. For all the platform the forwards gave us through the set piece(1 kickable penalty in their half) they gave us little in open play. I think Jezzer made the point above. We need to either break the gainline or get behind defenses to create the space for more expansive back moves. The forwards didn't deliver that. Maybe Marshall at 12 would have made some difference but it's as likely he wouldn't. What would you have done so differently?

I disagree to some extent about the try scoring not being a skewable stat. Fionn Carr and Tom Varndell are 2 examples. He's better than both but the point is you'll get chances against weaker opposition that you just won't at international level. See also Madigan in the past 2 seasons. McFadden has a better strike rate than Zebo at international level but mostly against weaker teams.

It's hard to take you seriously when you say it's not just about Zebo as last week you were describing the decision to omit him from the 30 man squad as indefensible and a massive risk. The Zebo thing as taken over 3/4 threads. No has called for the inclusion of Murphy, Allan or Morris. As I understand it Schmidt did have him at Carton House in September
http://www.thescore.ie/joe-schmidt-ireland-captain-1097137-Sep2013/
He's shown he's fit and in form from what I can see so I'd be surprised if he doesn't make the training squad. That said I don't see that he's done enough to displace either Kearney or Trimble as the starting wingers. We'll know in 2 days anyway if it is just fitness or if some of the stories painting Zebo as the Irish James O'Beiber have any credibility.

We only lost by points, but were very lucky it was that close - May dropped teh ball over the line when it was easier to score and Farrell messed up at least 2 simple chances (think there was a 4 man overlap to the right with them pretty much on the line) for one of them. Marshall may have made a difference - he certainly is far more likely to break, but thats missing the bigger point - if we had more threat in the centres and/or out wide we could have had a Plan B - with the lack of pace and finishing ability we were stuck with plan A

Try scoring stats are not skewable - you either score them or you don't. Note that I did qualify my comment on Zebo by saying

His early career defensive issues have been sorted, he has a great boot and is good in the air (ie he is not only a try scorer)

ie not Varndell or Carr. Your comment on the opposition is the same wrong point you've made on a couple of occassions now
All of our wingers have played all the same oppositon - from "easy games" like Rabo during the 6 nations, to high ened Rabo, HC and international level. They all have broadly the same record through the levels - for example Zebo would have a similar rate to the likes of Bowe (about 44%), Trimble and Earls would be about 29%, Fitz about 24%, D Kearney about 20%, McFadden about 16%. There are some variations lke the one you've mentioend about McFadden but very little

That said I don't see that he's done enough to displace either Kearney or Trimble as the starting wingers

On this and I'd be really interested to know - what do you think that Kearney and Trimble have done to maintain their places? They have both obviously benefitted from injury, and have played pretty well - but have they been that good???

[All Blacks nil]

Incredible really that Trimble, D Kearney and McFadden have all become seemingly undroppable during this six nations.

They are all solid players who will do and have done little wrong.

Yippee

That's that sorted then

Personally I look for more from our wingers.

[jimbobjoe]

Incredible really that Trimble, D Kearney and McFadden have all become seemingly undroppable during this six nations.

They must be ripping defences to shreds.
They are all solid players who will do and have done little wrong.
Yippee

That's that sorted then

Personally I look for more from our wingers.

Wingers can only really be judged on the sort of ball they get. Both DK and Trimble come into midfield looking for work, made their tackles and have done well in attack with the limited opportunities afforded them. Dave Kearney made the second most yards in an Ireland shirt vs England, Trimble looks rejuvenated and playing his best in years and McFadden has been solid and looked the better centre when he came on vs Scotland.

If they were getting tons of ball and dropping passes then missing tackles there'd be a case to drop them. Saying that, I think Zebo and Fitz should be brought into the training squad this week to put pressure on them and hopefully put a hand up for selection.

[All Blacks nil]

As I said they are all doing okay. Nothing wrong.

Incidentally the bar must have been set low for McFadden's 8 minute centre appearance v Scotland. He touched the ball twice, making 6 metres but not passing the ball. He made 2 tackles and conceded 1 penalty, the penalty coincidentally coming at the end of a 5 metre run( out of his six in total) when he was penalised for holding on with his first touch of the ball
The fact he looked the better centre might be the problem
His twenty minute appearance v Wales was similarly solid except this time he knocked on the only ball he touched and gave away another penalty. He again made 2 tackles
Didn't get a whole lot to do in his 15 minutes v England. Touched the ball 3 times , knocking on once in contact again ruining his metre gained start of 11 metres in 2 runs. Didn't manage a tackle although Ireland did have a lot of possession.

Above is a mixture of stats and observations.
In a nutshell, in 43 minutes he has touched the ball a total of six times, including one knock on from a high ball, a knock on in contact, a penalty for holding on after making 5 metres, he also conceded another penalty , he made a total of 4 tackles . Otherwise he did nothing wrong


Just as well he has been playing well for Leinster

[Edna Kenny]

All Blacks nil wrote:
Incredible really that Trimble, D Kearney and McFadden have all become seemingly undroppable during this six nations.

We won the first 2 games pretty comfortably so don't see any reason why they should have been dropped. It's not like there was much other choice for the Scotland and Wales games.

I'd say the meeting to discuss the England game will be pretty harsh, no hiding for anyone. If changes need to be made they will be made. There will be more options available as players come back from injuries, Fitz and Zebo will both be in the reckoning for squads for the next 2 games.

We were narrowly beaten by a team that played extremely well. We were not favourites to win it and it panned out exactly as the bookies had it. Not the end of the world.
Compared to that game last year against England, at 6 nil down I honestly could see no way back for us, we were clueless. At least on Saturday you felt we were in the game right to the end. Lots of mistakes to learn from but no shortage of effort.

[Oldschool]

Paddy, you are trying your hardest but the hole is only getting bigger

First off you claim that the tactics were spot on, but its clear as day that they weren't - The forward tactic (that worked so well against much lesser packs in Wales and Scotland) needed to be implemented in a similar manner - which was done - pack were pretty good imo. But it needed to supplemented by something else in the backs, because we were never going to outmuscle England the way we did Wales and Scotland. If you can't acknowlegde that there no chance that you can be considered as anything but completely biased

Schmidts back play to date has been all about defence and is very negative - coming from a backline that is almost exclusively Schmidt era Leinster I'm suprised by this. However I've no issue with whatever gameplan he goes for - its a results business after all - but lets not ignore what we've seen. We have a pack who are providing an excellent platform off set piece and a good platform in open play - they were not out muscled by England. We have backs who either are playing to the gameplan or don't have the ability to make anything of the platform that they are being served up. Our backline play on Saturday was chasing kicks and little else - Kearney is showing a lot of intent but still lacks pace and hasn't learned to pass. Darcy and BOD are solid at this stage and despite huge effort offer very little attacking threats. Our two wingers have been solid, no real mistakes, but no real impact either.

While its very easy to talk about the opposition that Zebo since coming back in you are missing (or ignoring a couple of important points)

- The likes of Fitz, Kearney and McFadden have played loads of Rabo games, HC games etc including during international windows and never scored like Zebo has - they are simply not try scoring wingers (Fitz is the most potent from a scoring pov and obviously the most threatening as well). They have other very good qualities but they are not a hugely threatening bunch of wingers and certainly not "scoring wingers". Its very easy to manipulate stats to suit an arguement - try scoring is one of those that you can't.

- Zebo is not Fionn Carr, tearing it up in the Rabo. He has an excellent try scoring record, far far in excess of the three guys I've named. He also very importantly has delivered as he went up the levels (his record in HC is actually better than his record at Rabo). He has also delivered on the international stage. His early career defensive issues have been sorted, he has a great boot and is good in the air (ie he is not only a try scorer)

Would we have won playing he way we did if Zebo was in the team - probably not. Would have played a little differently if he was - probably.

If he is not brought into the squad this week then you have to ask serious questions of Schmidt making a judgement on a player that to my knowledge he has never had under his control in any training session. This is obviously all in light of our issues with the lack of threat/pace and exasperated by the injuries to Bowe, Fitz and Earls (if he chooses to pick the three of them ahead of Zebo - no complaints at all). Its very easy to dismiss the debate as just being about Zebo - its not - its is primarily about the fact that we have three front line wingers unavailable. He is essentially picking from 5 (Trimble, Kearney, McFadden, Zebo & Gilroy - if you choose to ignore the likes of Niall Morris, Michael Allen, Johne Murphy etc)

We have been very quick to dismiss Gatlandball - Wales have a Plan A and nothing else - we are in exactly the same boat. I think Schmidt can sort all this and that we have players who will make a big difference (including the insitu players playing a different game plan). The three guys he has selected may e teh best guys to implement the game plan. But lets not claim that the game plan doesn't need to be changed with regard to the backs.

What hole? I think the tactics were good enough to win the game with the team we had. We didn't. Some poor kicking, botched opportunities, and bad defending let us down. For all the platform the forwards gave us through the set piece(1 kickable penalty in their half) they gave us little in open play. I think Jezzer made the point above. We need to either break the gainline or get behind defenses to create the space for more expansive back moves. The forwards didn't deliver that. Maybe Marshall at 12 would have made some difference but it's as likely he wouldn't. What would you have done so differently?

I disagree to some extent about the try scoring not being a skewable stat. Fionn Carr and Tom Varndell are 2 examples. He's better than both but the point is you'll get chances against weaker opposition that you just won't at international level. See also Madigan in the past 2 seasons. McFadden has a better strike rate than Zebo at international level but mostly against weaker teams.

It's hard to take you seriously when you say it's not just about Zebo as last week you were describing the decision to omit him from the 30 man squad as indefensible and a massive risk. The Zebo thing as taken over 3/4 threads. No has called for the inclusion of Murphy, Allan or Morris. As I understand it Schmidt did have him at Carton House in September
http://www.thescore.ie/joe-schmidt-ireland-captain-1097137-Sep2013/
He's shown he's fit and in form from what I can see so I'd be surprised if he doesn't make the training squad. That said I don't see that he's done enough to displace either Kearney or Trimble as the starting wingers. We'll know in 2 days anyway if it is just fitness or if some of the stories painting Zebo as the Irish James O'Beiber have any credibility.

We only lost by points, but were very lucky it was that close - May dropped teh ball over the line when it was easier to score and Farrell messed up at least 2 simple chances (think there was a 4 man overlap to the right with them pretty much on the line) for one of them. Marshall may have made a difference - he certainly is far more likely to break, but thats missing the bigger point - if we had more threat in the centres and/or out wide we could have had a Plan B - with the lack of pace and finishing ability we were stuck with plan A

Try scoring stats are not skewable - you either score them or you don't. Note that I did qualify my comment on Zebo by saying

His early career defensive issues have been sorted, he has a great boot and is good in the air (ie he is not only a try scorer)

ie not Varndell or Carr. Your comment on the opposition is the same wrong point you've made on a couple of occassions now
All of our wingers have played all the same oppositon - from "easy games" like Rabo during the 6 nations, to high ened Rabo, HC and international level. They all have broadly the same record through the levels - for example Zebo would have a similar rate to the likes of Bowe (about 44%), Trimble and Earls would be about 29%, Fitz about 24%, D Kearney about 20%, McFadden about 16%. There are some variations lke the one you've mentioend about McFadden but very little

That said I don't see that he's done enough to displace either Kearney or Trimble as the starting wingers

On this and I'd be really interested to know - what do you think that Kearney and Trimble have done to maintain their places? They have both obviously benefitted from injury, and have played pretty well - but have they been that good???

Never really occurred to me before GM but you've a real glass half empty approach.
What about the close calls they had when we let them off the hook.
May should have scored but he didn't because he was under so much pressure.
First POM nearly nabbed him and then Trimble hit him and that was enough. He didn't have a free run in.
You make your own luck good and bad, it's called bad play or bad preparation or both.
England were delighted with their win because they knew hoe close a run thing it was.

[Ruckedtobits]

If you win a game and the opposition play badly it can be because:

a) They performed below their expected skill level or
b) You pressurized them in a manner which negated their skill level.

Our half-backs did not play to their optimum skill level on Saturday. Was it because they were not allowed by their opponents pressure or because they performed their tasks badly?

Having reviewed the game at some length, it appears the answer is most likely to be a combination of both. England chose our half-backs as targets. We chose their wingers as targets. Their choice was marginally more effective.

That's tactics for you.

[All Blacks nil]

OLDSCHOOL
At the same time you can't say we were unlucky to lose?
England certainly left more points out there. As in any one score match we COULD have won.
Despite the fact we had a perfect 16/16 lineouts,won all our own scrums and four of England's we rarely created chances. The try and the period of play leading up to Sexton's cross kick to Trimble were our only real incisive plays.
As in last years game Ireland had a decent majority in the possession stakes but could not make it count.

As you say you make your own luck through bad play or preparation. We will assume the preparation was good therefore the play is the problem.
Since we had a decent majority of possession I would venture that our attacking play is the problem

[paddyor]

Incredible really that Trimble, D Kearney and McFadden have all become seemingly undroppable during this six nations.

They are all solid players who will do and have done little wrong.

Yippee

That's that sorted then

Personally I look for more from our wingers.

Like being from Munster?

[paddyor]

.... mixture of stats and observations.....

The quality of your observations is well know is these parts. See the signature! Also your ability to add the ages of our centres and come up with a number in excess of the pension has been noted!

[paddyor]

On this and I'd be really interested to know - what do you think that Kearney and Trimble have done to maintain their places? They have both obviously benefitted from injury, and have played pretty well - but have they been that good???

Yeah they have. With and without the ball. They've made a number of commentators(Planet rugby, Johnathan Davies) teams of the week. Personally I never thought I'd see Trimble in an Ireland shirt again barring a massive injury crisis and was quite happy about that. I was expecting a couple of f*ck-ups against both Scotland that would make that a reality but it hasn't happened.

Of Bowe, Earls, Fitz, Gilroy and Zebo only the first 2(and possibly Fitzgerald) have enough credit(experience etc) to walk back into the team ahead of either Kearney and Trimble provided they're up to scratch in training(IMO). I think McFadden will keep the bench for versatility and insurance against Jacksons kicking(which Schmidt seems to have no faith in). Zebo wasn't in form at the start of the season and has little in the way of game time against tough opposition(Leinster, Clermont, Harlequins) since his 6N debut last year. He's only starting to show the form now that had people raving about him and thinking him one of the best(if not the) wingers in the country. He's been rampant against poor teams and it's fair to say that he's fit and rediscovered the form. Just to give it a bit of context though, Michael bent propped both sides of a dominant Leinster scrum as well as scoring a try against Cardiff and Jack Conan got MOTM and a try on his debut in the same game. Whether Schmidt sees Zebos form as enough to replace either of the wings I don't know. I'd have no problem with him in the Italy team but I don't think he's been missed to the extent that people are making out.

[All Blacks nil]

.... mixture of stats and observations.....

The quality of your observations is well know is these parts. See the signature! Also your ability to add the ages of our centres and come up with a number in excess of the pension has been noted!

The tactics man speaks.

Go round them or over them
Don't take them on with our most potent weapon. ( 3 tries first two games)
You earn the right to go
In fairness to Joe we definitely fooled Lancaster. He would have spent the week trying to counteract the maul.
As you say our tactics were spot on

[paddyor]

.... mixture of stats and observations.....

The quality of your observations is well know is these parts. See the signature! Also your ability to add the ages of our centres and come up with a number in excess of the pension has been noted!

The tactics man speaks.

Go round them or over them
Don't take them on with our most potent weapon. ( 3 tries first two games)
You earn the right to go
In fairness to Joe we definitely fooled Lancaster. He would have spent the week trying to counteract the maul.
As you say our tactics were spot on

2 tries against the worst LOs in the competition. We did use the maul, got a peno and turned the ball over IIRC. Should we have used it more? Maybe but I can't really remember us being within striking distance that often. I'd imagine the decision of when to use it was left to the players.

[All Blacks nil]

2 tries against the worst LOs in the competition. We did use the maul, got a peno and turned the ball over IIRC. Should we have used it more? Maybe but I can't really remember us being within striking distance that often. I'd imagine the decision of when to use it was left to the players.

You don't only have to use it when you are within range of the line. Our most effective weapon ignored until the second half. When we did eventually use it we forced penalties including one from which Sexton kicked 3 points
Tactically spot on!

[Kinger83]

Some more good analysis by Murray Kinsella on the game.

http://thescore.thejournal.ie/ireland-a ... 8-Feb2014/

[TrapperChamonix]

watched game again last night and was blown away by the performance of Launchbury

[fourthirtythree]

watched game again last night and was blown away by the performance of Launchbury

Their lock pairing were better than ours. For all the talk of how well our forwards performed our back row wasn't that great and our second row was eclipsed by theirs.

[Golf Man]

On this and I'd be really interested to know - what do you think that Kearney and Trimble have done to maintain their places? They have both obviously benefitted from injury, and have played pretty well - but have they been that good???

Yeah they have. With and without the ball. They've made a number of commentators(Planet rugby, Johnathan Davies) teams of the week. Personally I never thought I'd see Trimble in an Ireland shirt again barring a massive injury crisis and was quite happy about that. I was expecting a couple of f*ck-ups against both Scotland that would make that a reality but it hasn't happened.

Of Bowe, Earls, Fitz, Gilroy and Zebo only the first 2(and possibly Fitzgerald) have enough credit(experience etc) to walk back into the team ahead of either Kearney and Trimble provided they're up to scratch in training(IMO). I think McFadden will keep the bench for versatility and insurance against Jacksons kicking(which Schmidt seems to have no faith in). Zebo wasn't in form at the start of the season and has little in the way of game time against tough opposition(Leinster, Clermont, Harlequins) since his 6N debut last year. He's only starting to show the form now that had people raving about him and thinking him one of the best(if not the) wingers in the country. He's been rampant against poor teams and it's fair to say that he's fit and rediscovered the form. Just to give it a bit of context though, Michael bent propped both sides of a dominant Leinster scrum as well as scoring a try against Cardiff and Jack Conan got MOTM and a try on his debut in the same game. Whether Schmidt sees Zebos form as enough to replace either of the wings I don't know. I'd have no problem with him in the Italy team but I don't think he's been missed to the extent that people are making out.

This is at least the second time when you've mentioned Michael Bent propping on both sides and scoring a try in relation to Zebo's no selection - wtf are you talking about?

Again you are doing an deep analysis of Zebo - picking 4 games at the start of the season (bad form apparently), 5 games recently (bad opposition) and his last 3 games of last season (where he didn't score) The fact that Zebo went straight from an injury layoff to starting (and performing excellently) v Quins doesn't help your arguement.

Do the same analysis on Kearney - last year he played 4 games during the 6N - he cored two tries v Dragons (2/3 of his tries in that season). In his last 2 seasons he has 27 appearances for Leinster and 5 tries. (To give it context Zebo has 11 tries in 24 games in the same period, with more at a higher level). He scored two tries v Samoa and hasn't threatened since (and its the threat that we lack that we are talking about here)

I can absolutey accept that Schmidt has the right to pick as he chooses, but this precious pandering to justify his every utterance is pathetic.

And Plant Rugby and Jonathan Davies teams of teh week