Ireland v Barbarians

[LeinsterLeader]

Not denying skill levels have regressed. What I'm saying is how much coaching does a professional team need to pass a ball?

If you're telling me you don't have the answer, but you feel that the lowest common denominator is Matt then fine. I don't have the answer either but I find it very heard to understand.

a professional team needs to pass the ball a lot, together, at high pace and intensity in order to try and mimic game conditions as much as possible..

it's the coaches job to create said training environment, so the players train at a level as close as possible to a game.

Shane Horgan said it on a second captains podcast about leinster's skill level, the players aren't challenging their skillset often enough to keep it at a high enough level to execute on the field at a fast efficient pace.

and that work is done in training and in the gameplan, both are organized by MOC.

Yes, that's coaching. Tactics. strategy. I get all that. That's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about the basics. Look at the lead up to the 3rd try tonight. All coming from two awful passes from Leinster players. They were simple passes. two under 13's could have executed it better. Are you telling me that was down to Matt O'Connor too?

[goreyguy]

Not denying skill levels have regressed. What I'm saying is how much coaching does a professional team need to pass a ball?

If you're telling me you don't have the answer, but you feel that the lowest common denominator is Matt then fine. I don't have the answer either but I find it very heard to understand.

a professional team needs to pass the ball a lot, together, at high pace and intensity in order to try and mimic game conditions as much as possible..

it's the coaches job to create said training environment, so the players train at a level as close as possible to a game.

Shane Horgan said it on a second captains podcast about leinster's skill level, the players aren't challenging their skillset often enough to keep it at a high enough level to execute on the field at a fast efficient pace.

and that work is done in training and in the gameplan, both are organized by MOC.

Yes, that's coaching. Tactics. strategy. I get all that. That's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about the basics. Look at the lead up to the 3rd try tonight. All coming from two awful passes from Leinster players. They were simple passes. two under 13's could have executed it better. Are you telling me that was down to Matt O'Connor too?

ive told you already, players skill levels drop when they aren't forced to maintain that skill level in training, MOC took over, skills dropped throughout the squad.

either player shouldn't be making that mistake but it's not surprising given how much skill levels have dropped since MOC's taken over.

you either seem to believe the players have just stopped working in training and therefore their skills have dropped or simply stopped caring. heaven forbide it's the coaches fault for allowing skill levels to drop throughout the team.

it's pretty simple as ive said already a well prepared/drilled player, like what leinster had under schmidt rarely makes such basic errors, leinster players have not been so well coached/prepared under MOC and their skill levels have dropped.

[goreyguy]

as shane horgan said leinster under MOC don't challenge their skillset often enough in games or training, so when they are called upon to something even as something as basic as execute a pass under high pressure the potential for failure is increased.

schmidt challenged the players skillset consistently and the players skills improved and basic errors in games were kept to a minimum.
come world cup, you can be sure you won't see irish players throwing bad passes so regularly as they have done under MOC.

[LeinsterLeader]

as shane horgan said leinster under MOC don't challenge their skillset often enough in games or training, so when they are called upon to something even as something as basic as execute a pass under high pressure the potential for failure is increased.

schmidt challenged the players skillset consistently and the players skills improved and basic errors in games were kept to a minimum.
come world cup, you can be sure you won't see irish players throwing bad passes so regularly as they have done under MOC.

Again your missing my point. There is no doubt skill levels have deteriorated under Matt. I have not claimed otherwise. It's there for all to see.

My point is players still have to be able to take responsibility for not doing the basics. It seems to me that nobody has the first clue as to why players suddenly can't do basics (shane Horgan included) and so the argument is "well we used to pass the ball good in the before times and now we can't. What's changed? Matt O'Connor. Must be all down to him so". In fairness that's more then a fair assumption but that's all it is, an assumption and yet it's been sold as fact.

I'm not defending Matt. This is not about that. I've been to every home game this season. I can show you the patches on my head were I have pulled my hair out. I know shite rugby when I see it. He had to go, no doubt. However, if we assume it's all on Matt (It may be I don't know) and the new guy comes in and the basics are still shite, where will we be then? Do we sack him too?

Anyway I'm going to bed now. Catch up with ya in the morning. Been nice talking to ya

[goreyguy]

as shane horgan said leinster under MOC don't challenge their skillset often enough in games or training, so when they are called upon to something even as something as basic as execute a pass under high pressure the potential for failure is increased.

schmidt challenged the players skillset consistently and the players skills improved and basic errors in games were kept to a minimum.
come world cup, you can be sure you won't see irish players throwing bad passes so regularly as they have done under MOC.

Again your missing my point. There is no doubt skill levels have deteriorated under Matt. I have not claimed otherwise. It's there for all to see.

My point is players still have to be able to take responsibility for not doing the basics. It seems to me that nobody has the first clue as to why players suddenly can't do basics (shane Horgan included) and so the argument is "well we used to pass the ball good in the before times and now we can't. What's changed? Matt O'Connor. Must be all down to him so". In fairness that's more then a fair assumption but that's all it is, an assumption and yet it's been sold as fact.

I'm not defending Matt. This is not about that. I've been to every home game this season. I can show you the patches on my head were I have pulled my hair out. I know shite rugby when I see it. He had to go, no doubt. However, if we assume it's all on Matt (It may be I don't know) and the new guy comes in and the basics are still shite, where will we be then? Do we sack him too?

Anyway I'm going to bed now. Catch up with ya in the morning. Been nice talking to ya

shane horgan did identify it, basic skill execution under pressure needs to be done consistently in training and in games. otherwise skill levels will drop. he said that MOC's gameplan doesn't demand that and therefore the skill levels have deteriorated.

we can't sack the majority of the players, simple as, we are limited, mostly, to the players we develop.. we need to get a coach who can develop and improve those players and get the best out of them. if the coach isn't doing that we have to find someone who will. Munster/Ulster/Glasgow are out executing Leinster players, so if they can do it absolutely no reason we can't.

ive never claimed it was all on MOC but a lot of it was and he wasn't part of the solution, I believe a good coach improves his players, hopefully the next coach will be able to improve skill levels, if he isn't able to then maybe he isn't the right man for the job. it's imperative that we get a coach who can take young players and develop them.

[Donny B.]

http://www.the42.ie/jack-mcgrath-citing ... 5-May2015/

Lucky boy.

[Flash Gordon]

http://www.the42.ie/jack-mcgrath-citing ... 5-May2015/

Lucky boy.

As was Madigan.

[cormac]

http://www.the42.ie/jack-mcgrath-citing ... 5-May2015/

Lucky boy.

Same citing officer who thought POC had no case to answer after kicking Dave Kearney in the head. Dodgy as f***.

[Oldschool]

Do you mean to say they weren't doing any passing in practice? I'm not talking about complex back line moves here I'm just taking about moving the ball along the line. Surely not a lot of coaching should be required of a professional team to do that?

The environment to ensure high levels of passing skills simply wasn't provided.
MOC actually doesn't seem to have organised the appropriate environment for any of the necessary skills to be brought up to the required level.
You name it and we were poor at it. Kick and chase being another example.

[Oldschool]

again i'm sure in practice the handling is usually fine, but what kind of intensity do they practice at? how acceptable are handling errors in practice?

do you reject that passing and ball skills are a skill that can be improved?
do you accept that schmidt took over and he improved leinster's skills?
do you accept that MOC took over and the skills dropped?

No, Not necessarily and Yes. But none of that is the point I'm making.

Forget about intensity for a minute. If I was a professional rugby player and I consistently could not pass correctly to my team mates in a match situation on a regular basis the first person I'd be having a word with is myself. I think its fair enough to say if you can't pass under pressure consistently at this level, at this stage of your career, you have to take a certain amount responsibility,

You can learn technique in isolation but you can't learn to pass under pressure unless there is pressure being applied. It's a subset of experience and it's better done in training than on the hoof on matchday.

[Oldschool]

Not denying skill levels have regressed. What I'm saying is how much coaching does a professional team need to pass a ball?

If you're telling me you don't have the answer, but you feel that the lowest common denominator is Matt then fine. I don't have the answer either but I find it very heard to understand.

a professional team needs to pass the ball a lot, together, at high pace and intensity in order to try and mimic game conditions as much as possible..

it's the coaches job to create said training environment, so the players train at a level as close as possible to a game.

Shane Horgan said it on a second captains podcast about leinster's skill level, the players aren't challenging their skillset often enough to keep it at a high enough level to execute on the field at a fast efficient pace.

and that work is done in training and in the gameplan, both are organized by MOC.

Yes, that's coaching. Tactics. strategy. I get all that. That's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about the basics. Look at the lead up to the 3rd try tonight. All coming from two awful passes from Leinster players. They were simple passes. two under 13's could have executed it better. Are you telling me that was down to Matt O'Connor too?

The simpler question is to ask- Why have ALL of our players skill levels dropped. If it was just one or two then you might argue it's the individual.
The problem is a collective one and that comes back to the coach.
We get your point but you're not listening to the answers.
If your view was correct then we don't need a coach we just need to identify and select the right players and they'll look after everything themselves.
Even you don't believe that would work.

[mauler72]

We should try signing that Zane Kirchner

I've always maintained Joe Schmidt signed "THAT" ZK.

[LeinsterLeader]

a professional team needs to pass the ball a lot, together, at high pace and intensity in order to try and mimic game conditions as much as possible..

it's the coaches job to create said training environment, so the players train at a level as close as possible to a game.

Shane Horgan said it on a second captains podcast about leinster's skill level, the players aren't challenging their skillset often enough to keep it at a high enough level to execute on the field at a fast efficient pace.

and that work is done in training and in the gameplan, both are organized by MOC.

Yes, that's coaching. Tactics. strategy. I get all that. That's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about the basics. Look at the lead up to the 3rd try tonight. All coming from two awful passes from Leinster players. They were simple passes. two under 13's could have executed it better. Are you telling me that was down to Matt O'Connor too?

The simpler question is to ask- Why have ALL of our players skill levels dropped. If it was just one or two then you might argue it's the individual.
The problem is a collective one and that comes back to the coach.
We get your point but you're not listening to the answers.
If your view was correct then we don't need a coach we just need to identify and select the right players and they'll look after everything themselves.
Even you don't believe that would work.

No I do get your point and I'm hearing you load and clear. And the points both you, GG and shane Horgan have made are valid, but I'm talking at a more basic level. Perhaps I'm not explaining myself well enough. Let me give you a "for instance"

Suppose Jack Charlton took over at Real Madrid and said "from nwo on lads no more of your passing we're gonna hoof the ball 80 metres whenever we can". If during the course of the game Ronaldo had to the pass the ball sideways 10 yards to one of his teammates I won't expect him to knock it two yards over his head just because he hasn't been doing it in training. Why? Because he's been doing it since he was a baby. It's part of his DNA. Call it muscle memory if you like, but it's a basic and its why he gets paid for doing something he loves. And if it did happen I'm pretty sure people won't be saying "Ronaldo can't pass now because of Jack Charlton", they'd be saying "er....theres' something wrong with Ronaldo". However, they also might say (and probably quite rightly) "actually it doesn't really matter if Ronaldo could pass or not because our tactics are shite". However that doesn't help the next manger in because Ronaldo still can't pass (for whatever reason).

Now, in the above story swap Jack Charlton for Matt and Ronaldo for, let's say Ian Madigan (could be a lot of people really).

Look maybe it is all down to Matt. Maybe he has so sucked the life and the confidence out of the players with his coaching style that they can't execute 4 passes in a row without someone having to take it at his ankles or at least one penalty a game doesn't find touch or they can't go through half a dozen phases without knocking the ball on. If that is the case, grand. That's an easy enough fix provided we get the right man in.

My fear is that in the haste to issue Matt out the door, people aren't looking around to see is there anything else going on that might be effecting Leinster rugby. That's it. That's my point. I'm not really expecting anyone to have the answer. I'm just sharing

I suppose we'll find out more when the next guy arrives.

[Peg Leg]

Given that was effectively a Leinster 23 v the Barbarians, its pretty disappointing that the try scorers were all from ulster

[Donny B.]

Given that was effectively a Leinster 23 v the Barbarians, its pretty disappointing that the try scorers were all from ulster

The Ulster players cheated with their ability to catch a pass!

[paddyor]

McGrath gets away with it.

[olaf the fat]

Given that was effectively a Leinster 23 v the Barbarians, its pretty disappointing that the try scorers were all from ulster

Seemly ZK scored a nice try..

[simonokeeffe]

Given that was effectively a Leinster 23 v the Barbarians, its pretty disappointing that the try scorers were all from ulster

still, it was a great way to open the new stadium

Madigan was a penalty, nothing more

While I think McGrath shouldve copped a couple of weeks all these comparisons in the media are a bit spurious

[leinsterforever]

No I do get your point and I'm hearing you load and clear. And the points both you, GG and shane Horgan have made are valid, but I'm talking at a more basic level. Perhaps I'm not explaining myself well enough. Let me give you a "for instance"

Suppose Jack Charlton took over at Real Madrid and said "from nwo on lads no more of your passing we're gonna hoof the ball 80 metres whenever we can". If during the course of the game Ronaldo had to the pass the ball sideways 10 yards to one of his teammates I won't expect him to knock it two yards over his head just because he hasn't been doing it in training. Why? Because he's been doing it since he was a baby. It's part of his DNA. Call it muscle memory if you like, but it's a basic and its why he gets paid for doing something he loves. And if it did happen I'm pretty sure people won't be saying "Ronaldo can't pass now because of Jack Charlton", they'd be saying "er....theres' something wrong with Ronaldo". However, they also might say (and probably quite rightly) "actually it doesn't really matter if Ronaldo could pass or not because our tactics are shite". However that doesn't help the next manger in because Ronaldo still can't pass (for whatever reason).

Now, in the above story swap Jack Charlton for Matt and Ronaldo for, let's say Ian Madigan (could be a lot of people really).

Look maybe it is all down to Matt. Maybe he has so sucked the life and the confidence out of the players with his coaching style that they can't execute 4 passes in a row without someone having to take it at his ankles or at least one penalty a game doesn't find touch or they can't go through half a dozen phases without knocking the ball on. If that is the case, grand. That's an easy enough fix provided we get the right man in.

My fear is that in the haste to issue Matt out the door, people aren't looking around to see is there anything else going on that might be effecting Leinster rugby. That's it. That's my point. I'm not really expecting anyone to have the answer. I'm just sharing

I suppose we'll find out more when the next guy arrives.

That's simply wrong. Hurling players will tell you that they lose their touch if they don't practice constantly. It's the same with passing a rugby ball. I thought Gopperth and Kirchner threw bad passes last night as well. The Leinster gameplan and training environment didn't ensure that players' skillsets were being maintained