Wales vs Ireland - 14/03/2015 14:30

[Armchair]

And also that Bowe looks seriously underpowered in contact.

Yeah I thought reddan Cronin and Henderson added real tempo and upped our game when on. I would like to see Cronin and Henderson start. I do believe if Cronin was on during that 30 phase possession he would have made more holes also would have someone like Matt Healy from Connacht in the squad to offer something different an out an out winger but we would have to use him to be effective

[neiliog93]

Absolutely agree that the not rolling away penalties in the first half against McGrath and O'Connell were a joke. O'Connell was in no way impeding Webb's access to the ball or his ability to pass - if he had rolled away, he risked doing so! McGrath was similar. Pretty disgraceful refereeing.

[Donny B.]

When Barnes was announced as replacement ref, the fix was in. We had them in the front five but it would only make a difference with a ref who played the scrum fairly

[Donny B.]

Welsh tackling stats off the charts

Chatteris 37/0
Warburton 30/1
Falateau 24/3
Biggar 22/4
Lydiate 21/1
Jones 20/0
Baldwin 20/2

Welsh maðe 289 tackles in all .

Ireland made 5 offloads, despite the stats indicating that the Welsh would tackle all day

3 clean breaks in the game.



Might be time to loosen the shackles.

Helped that the referee told them they never even had to pretend to be onside

[enby]

the decision to give Wales a penalty on the last scrum was particularly scandalous.

i'd go with Henderson for Toner, Cronin for Best and Earls for Zebo. There is something not right about that back row although individually each of them had a decent game. Other than solidity under the high ball, Rob K is not offering much. Its a pity Henshaw has been moved out of 15

[Vamos los azules]

Welsh tackling stats off the charts

Chatteris 37/0
Warburton 30/1
Falateau 24/3
Biggar 22/4
Lydiate 21/1
Jones 20/0
Baldwin 20/2

Welsh made 289 tackles in all .

Ireland made 5 offloads, despite the stats indicating that the Welsh would tackle all day

3 clean breaks in the game.

Might be time to loosen the shackles.

The bulk of the Welsh squad are some combination of Grand Slam winners, World Cup semi-finalists and Lions series winners. Whatever the limitations of Gatland-ball at times, they have a very good, settled team and have been lucky with injuries (or lack thereof) this tournament.

They were never going to be pushovers at home when in the hunt for the Championship and put in an incredible defensive performance. They must be close to world record levels of tackles there.

[Tonic Wine]

Cronin ,Healy and Henderson should get a start against Scotland.We need impact at the beginning of games too.Marty Moore was happy to have parity against a reject prop running on an empty oxygen tank-poor performance.The pack needs to be freshened up

[blaker]

I haven't read the preceding pages so policies if this is a rehash. And I'm typing this on an iPhone in Vilnius airport so apologies for errors!
I don't think Barnes had a bad game. He was consistent and rode wales in the second 20 in the same way he rode us in the first 20. He also binned 2 of their lads
Here's the thing - I think Joes plan worked. We owned the ball and territory. We didn't kick as much as previously. But we were goosed by individual fock ups and great welsh work. Best and cronin lost 4 line outs in key attacking/defensive areas. The welsh score was after one of these. Dan cole mentioned during the week that England had identified a total lack of movement by toner at line outs and perhaps wales identified the same? Whatever the cause wales looked like they'd had our line out well marked.
Allied to the line out, Healy messed up the overlap. If even 50%of the above aren't focked up then we are here talking about a 10 point ireland win
In terms of players, for me Kearney does what he does. It's not hugely exciting but he's a bit Dempsey like in terms of safety. If they think Payne can match that then is move him to 15 and put fitz in at 13. Allied to that I simply do not rate Zebo. Catch pass, pause, shift ball to one has, goosestep, get tackles, repeat. I'd have any of Kearney McFadden earls fitz Trimble ahead of him frankly.
Obrien had a quiet game and Healy was very poor off the bench. Healy is comfortably second behind McGrath at the mo and maybe looks like he is forcing it when he comes in.
I'd have Henderson in for omahoney - think Pom is good buuuuuuut....low yardage, low tackles, ....
I'd put fitz at 13, earls for Zebo, Henderson at 6 and the world would be set to rights

[neiliog93]

So you don't think Barnes ignoring Wales being constantly offside, rewarding the weaker scrum and not giving us a definite second penalty try was wrong?

[munster#1]

Massively dissapointied with that result, I knew Wales would be difficult to beat, but I did not think they would have enough to win.

Wales beat us due to their work rate and Ireland's complete lack of a plan b until the 65th minute.

Ireland have played the same way in all bar the all blacks match, so it was obvious that we would be caught out eventuall, and with the lack of variations in the previous matches Ireland seemed unable to mix things up.

The introduction of Reddan, cronin and Henderson made a massive difference to the tempo, so you have to ask questions of the players that they replaced who could not change the game.

I would make some changes for Scotland, Madigan has to come in for Payne with henshaw at 13.

Henderson to start in place of toner, this would add an extra ball carrier, and would hopefully improve the lineout as toner was targeted to great effect by Wales.

Payne to replace Jones on the bench, and earls to replace Madigan on the bench. This would give massive impact for the last 20.

Cronin is much more mobile than best, but Imo best is a better thrower and better in the scrum, so I wouldn't Rush to drop best.

We will need a big score in this one, so the conservative approach needs to be given a break for this gam. We have the players that show every week for their provinces the ability to open teams up and score tries.

We are still in this championship and hopefully we will see POC finish his 6n career with another trophy.

[blaker]

So you don't think Barnes ignoring Wales being constantly offside, rewarding the weaker scrum and not giving us a definite second penalty try was wrong?

Penno try at the very end maul? If so no, it wasn't a penalty

Re offside line - yeah but the offside line is almost a novelty this season, no refs are on top of it and most importantly, he was the same for both sides.

We did not lose that match because of barnes

[dropkick]

I don't think the pack needs changing. Its the back line that looks very blunt. What was noticeable yesterday was the injection of pace in the play when Reddan replaced Murray. Ireland started finding gaps and put Wales under real pressure.

Sexton and Murray had an off day. As did Best but I thought it was more a case of the Welsh knowing exactly what Ireland would do in the lineout. That said it hasn't been a great 6 nations for Best.

The back line is where I'd make changes

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I'm not too bothered about changing the backline for next week, but I'd like to see us be more willing to change things up during the game. Madigan as an option at 12 and Payne as an option at 15, and Earls on the bench is a must now IMO. If that's not enough for us then I'd look to change the starting team. I think we really missed Trimble yesterday, he'd have burst through some of the holes that Bowe, Kearney and Zebo got stuffed trying to break through.

If we do make a change then I'd only make one given how well the lads all played before yesterday. Probably Earls for Zebo in that case. I've been advocating Luke's inclusion for ages now and think his identification of space and general footballing ability would have helped yesterday, but really I think it was the gas, footwork and finishing of Earls that was really lacking.

Also our alignment was quite poor. We butchered so many chances by either not moving the ball wide or stepping back inside, but actually there were times when we did move it and the players on the outside were way too flat and far away from the ball carrier.

[hugonaut]

Massively dissapointied with that result, I knew Wales would be difficult to beat, but I did not think they would have enough to win.

Wales beat us due to their work rate and Ireland's complete lack of a plan b until the 65th minute.

Ireland have played the same way in all bar the all blacks match, so it was obvious that we would be caught out eventuall, and with the lack of variations in the previous matches Ireland seemed unable to mix things up.

The introduction of Reddan, cronin and Henderson made a massive difference to the tempo, so you have to ask questions of the players that they replaced who could not change the game.

I would make some changes for Scotland, Madigan has to come in for Payne with henshaw at 13.

Henderson to start in place of toner, this would add an extra ball carrier, and would hopefully improve the lineout as toner was targeted to great effect by Wales.

Payne to replace Jones on the bench, and earls to replace Madigan on the bench. This would give massive impact for the last 20.

Cronin is much more mobile than best, but Imo best is a better thrower and better in the scrum, so I wouldn't Rush to drop best.

We will need a big score in this one, so the conservative approach needs to be given a break for this gam. We have the players that show every week for their provinces the ability to open teams up and score tries.

We are still in this championship and hopefully we will see POC finish his 6n career with another trophy.

We don't necessarily need a big score against Scotland, we need a decent winning margin. If we score 35 and concede 30, that's not much good to us.

To be honest, I think we're much better off trying to play the same way we have done for the most part of the championship in the first half, i.e. a heavy reliance on our halfbacks' kicking, and a really competitive kick-chase. The margin of victory is the big thing for us, so we don't want to get into a gunfight in open territory ... we need to smother them early, take our penalties when we can get them, hopefully end it as a contest around the 60-65 minute mark [as we did against the Italians, the French and the English] and then try and hit them with everything for the last 15-20 minutes.

England were trigger happy against them early in the game and ended up 13-10 down at halftime, only winning 25-13 in a game in which they repeatedly cut the Scottish defense to shreds. We were lucky that they showed so little composure, because they easily could have had another three tries in that game. That would have gone a long way to taking the championship out of our hands.

I wouldn't actually change a huge amount of personnel. Simon Zebo was very disappointing, so I'd swap him out for Keith Earls. Don't really understand why Felix Jones is in the matchday 23 in the first place, so he'd go in favour of Fitzgerald. Maybe Tommy O'Donnell to come in ahead of Jordi Murphy for the backrow sub? He was very unfortunate to miss out on selection after his performance against England, and Murphy didn't do much off the bench yesterday.

A bench of Healy, Cronin, Moore, Henderson, O'Donnell, Reddan, Madigan and Fitzgerald would give us an awful lot of pop in the last 25 minutes or so, whilst also providing standard cover if there are injuries earlier in the game.

[suisse]

The selection of Felix Jones on the bench was always curious and while it didn't affect the result, when you're 7 points down and chasing a try but can't bring on a guy when Zebo has such an offday was bitterly disppointing. The Welsh #23 scored the try that ultimately decided the game. The Irish #23 sat on the bench for a game we were chasing from the 2nd minute despite at least one outside back not performing. It doesn't make any sense and contradictory im regards to the comments about rejigging the back row for England game.

Why not go for a 6-2 split on the bench instead and have O'Donnell in reserve if you don't trust Jones? TOD has had a good tourney and I think he could have made a big difference yesterday.

On a side note, I'd much rather England win the Championship than Wales

[neiliog93]

Massively dissapointied with that result, I knew Wales would be difficult to beat, but I did not think they would have enough to win.

Wales beat us due to their work rate and Ireland's complete lack of a plan b until the 65th minute.

Ireland have played the same way in all bar the all blacks match, so it was obvious that we would be caught out eventuall, and with the lack of variations in the previous matches Ireland seemed unable to mix things up.

The introduction of Reddan, cronin and Henderson made a massive difference to the tempo, so you have to ask questions of the players that they replaced who could not change the game.

I would make some changes for Scotland, Madigan has to come in for Payne with henshaw at 13.

Henderson to start in place of toner, this would add an extra ball carrier, and would hopefully improve the lineout as toner was targeted to great effect by Wales.

Payne to replace Jones on the bench, and earls to replace Madigan on the bench. This would give massive impact for the last 20.

Cronin is much more mobile than best, but Imo best is a better thrower and better in the scrum, so I wouldn't Rush to drop best.

We will need a big score in this one, so the conservative approach needs to be given a break for this gam. We have the players that show every week for their provinces the ability to open teams up and score tries.

We are still in this championship and hopefully we will see POC finish his 6n career with another trophy.

We don't necessarily need a big score against Scotland, we need a decent winning margin. If we score 35 and concede 30, that's not much good to us.

To be honest, I think we're much better off trying to play the same way we have done for the most part of the championship in the first half, i.e. a heavy reliance on our halfbacks' kicking, and a really competitive kick-chase. The margin of victory is the big thing for us, so we don't want to get into a gunfight in open territory ... we need to smother them early, take our penalties when we can get them, hopefully end it as a contest around the 60-65 minute mark [as we did against the Italians, the French and the English] and then try and hit them with everything for the last 15-20 minutes.

England were trigger happy against them early in the game and ended up 13-10 down at halftime, only winning 25-13 in a game in which they repeatedly cut the Scottish defense to shreds. We were lucky that they showed so little composure, because they easily could have had another three tries in that game. That would have gone a long way to taking the championship out of our hands.

I wouldn't actually change a huge amount of personnel. Simon Zebo was very disappointing, so I'd swap him out for Keith Earls. Don't really understand why Felix Jones is in the matchday 23 in the first place, so he'd go in favour of Fitzgerald. Maybe Tommy O'Donnell to come in ahead of Jordi Murphy for the backrow sub? He was very unfortunate to miss out on selection after his performance against England, and Murphy didn't do much off the bench yesterday.

A bench of Healy, Cronin, Moore, Henderson, O'Donnell, Reddan, Madigan and Fitzgerald would give us an awful lot of pop in the last 25 minutes or so, whilst also providing standard cover if there are injuries earlier in the game.

I'd say we'll probably have to beat Scotland by about 20 points. Italy were unbelievably awful today against France, I think Wales could beat them by 40+ as England did last year. North, Davies et al will cut them to smithereens. Wales start the day knowing they realistically have to win by a solid 30 points to win the championship anyway. Let's say Wales go up to +52 (i.e they win by 40, but it could be even more than that). England may well beat a terrible France at home by more than 15 points themselves, although it's immaterial because as they play last will know what they have to do. My only hope is that defending seems to be the only thing France do well - even against us, where they were dominated, they only lost by 7 points. They're set up to not lose by large margins. Also, they might just have one of those days with the pressure off where they play really well (unlikely I know). They'll be up for 'Le Crunch' at any rate. Hopefully they lose to England by no more than 15 points.

That leaves us needing to beat Scotland by 20. A tough task at Murrayfield, compounded in my opinion by the fact that while they've improved this year, they still haven't won a game. They hung in well against England but their midfield defence was utterly woeful (thank God England weren't clinical). Does our midfield/backline have the class to cause them the same problems? Maybe, I'm not sure. Equally, Scotland were very dangerous out wide themselves so it's not inconceivable that a late Scotland try through this dangerous backline could cost us the championship on points difference like Italy in 2007 (by taking our winning margin from 20 to 13 for example). All remains to be seen, I feel the odds are against us but it's still doable.

As others have said you can't chase the game too early, but at the same time if they;re down to 14 in the first half it might be right to go for the try rather than 3 points. We need to force England to win their game by 10pts+ in my opinion.

[Raydollard]

If Madigan played as badly as Sexton did, the posters on this site would be calling for his exile to Mongolia.

[simonokeeffe]

If you isolate the key things we did badly or did not do

poor lineout throwing
not mauling sooner
no good chips
not enough kicking (to corner)
Healy knocking on a lot
Sexton having his worse game in general in a green shirt
SOB ineffective carrying
get over their line
take kicks at goal when on offer

thats a lot of things gone wrong/out of ordinary before we get to ref

short version is Wales were at their best and we werent by a long way

think you can adduddock to Trimble and Earls in list of badly missed (available) players

[RoboProp]

If you isolate the key things we did badly or did not do

poor lineout throwing
not mauling sooner
no good chips
not enough kicking (to corner)
Healy knocking on a lot
Sexton having his worse game in general in a green shirt
SOB ineffective carrying
get over their line
take kicks at goal when on offer

thats a lot of things gone wrong/out of ordinary before we get to ref

short version is Wales were at their best and we werent by a long way

think you can adduddock to Trimble and Earls in list of badly missed (available) players

We also didn't have a Scooby-Do at the breakdown. Can't recall how much turnover ball we won

[jezzer]

First off, massive credit to Wales. That was some shift they put in. Gatland gets a lot of stick for being one-dimensional with the way his teams play, but he prepares for opponents very well. The players executed the plan perfectly and the result took care of itself.

In fairness, Ireland played right into his hands, by not changing it up. Too many one-out runners (the Irish disease this season at test and provincial level), backline way too narrow with far too many passes back inside to the traffic, backline too flat and slow, as LeRoux said. Basically, we chose not to stretch them - which played into their tactic of chopping down anything that moved and trusting their defence.

The few times we did, we butchered it. We butchered a lot of kicking from hand (box kicks from Murray and kicks for territory from Sexton and the back three). Because we weren't quite clicking, we really needed several go's at their line to turn one into a score, but we only manufactured a couple of chances through bad tactics.

Best, Toner, POM, O'Brien, Murray, Sexton, Payne, Zebo and Kearney all had below par days. I don't think Sexton was well enough to play - he looked grey in the face. Whatever about the hammy, that guy wasn't right on Sat. No such excuses for the others though. POM was one of the big disappointments for me - a lot of errors, penalties against, lack of impact - but there were many.

Where do we go from here? We've got to create space better than we did, for sure. Payne is not doing it for me as a 13. I know the options aren't great and it's early days, but he strikes me as a guy who does his best stuff running from deep - he doesn't have the lateral agility, burst or hands to make ground in the phonebooth of the 13 channel.

We need to cut down the one-out rumbles. To me, it's the worst of both worlds - the oppo don't need to commit players to the breakdown because we don't , but they also don't have to cover the full width of the pitch because they know we're attacking off the 10 channel. They're just lining up to hit us.

I don't think our backline is going to turn into a scythe in a week. Defences are on top of things, even if we did improve. So, I'd like to see us picking and going more, leeching onto players for extra yards and offloading to the next forward on the hoof. We need to punch our way through the line by hammering at the same spots around the fringes - then go wide when we're in behind. Passing side-to-side in front of the defence - and relying on dummy runners to open holes - it just isn't working. Kicking behind wins you territory but you still have to touch the ball down over the line to score a try last time I checked.

Keith Earls has to be in the 23 for Scotland. He's our best chance of getting a break in behind an opening up a team. Him and Cronin up front - who I would either start or bring on after 50 mins or less. Reddan's impact was noticeable, but don't be fooled that's a sign we should start him. Wales were shagged at that point and Reddan is notoriously good for coming in in those conditions but struggling when he's started in a cagey game.

As for Barnes, he took an interpretation of the tackle area with him into the that nobody ever had to play with before. By the time we copped on and adjusted, we were a couple of scores down. Sure, he took it out on Wales in the second half, but they were defending a lead at the time. It's all about Barnes when he refs. Owens has an ego on him, as do a lot of them. Owens often picks an area of the game to police like a maniac, but he usually does it in the spirit of an open, flowing game. Barnes just likes to tell people they're doing it wrong. I wonder if he's really interested in creating a functioning game of rugby.