SARU OFFICIALLY PUT RACISM IN WRITING

[simonokeeffe]

Youd think the representative sides would be itching to get Black players in for several social, financial, political, brand reasons (with the exception maybe of The Bulls)

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Google tells me that the percentage of white people in SA is less than 10%. Still, that figure of 41% seems relatively good to me and presumably it's growing.

Declining since 2007

I wonder if it's still a good figure though i.e. were the figures artificially inflated before and that if they keep it around the 40% mark it would be good for a traditionally white sport?

Basically I'm wondering if SA rugby lobbed a few rugby balls into the townships and counted everyone who they met on a given day as being players who could count towards their quota, whereas now there might actually be some core areas where the game is thriving among the black population.

[dropkick]

Google tells me that the percentage of white people in SA is less than 10%. Still, that figure of 41% seems relatively good to me and presumably it's growing.

It's quite interesting looking at the demographics, just under 20% of the population was white in 1960, how the hell did they keep apartheid going in those circumstances?

The Dutch built up SA from a wilderness. After that immigrants from surrounding countries kept coming in to SA and swelled the numbers of Blacks. The more Whites were outnumbered the more defensive they became. If you were outnumbered 10 to 1 you would be very worried about handing over control to people that could do as they please to you.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

That's my point though, how did they cling on when they were so outnumbered? A lot of white people in the states would still have been afraid of giving power to black people regardless of their safety in numbers but they rose up and couldn't be ignored, how come that wasn't possible in SA?

[leinster4life13]

Black South Africans, in the main, dont want to play rugby , and of those that do, very few of them have the physical ability to play rugby at Bok level, I know this lad from when I was over there, could play anywhere in the backline quick as lightning, unreal step, pass of either hand, kicking game, can catch everything, but he only weighed about 65/70kg and was about all of 5'7, and he was in a professional academy setup, he would get murdered playing high level rugby for an extended period, his body would just break down.

You can have all the positive discrimination you want, but when your targets either dont want to play the game, or dont have the physical or mental capacity(see the likes of a Daniel Adongo and multiply him by 100) to play the game you are onto a loser.

Its also funny to not there are no quotas for Indian south african players, do they not deserve to be represented?

[dropkick]

That's my point though, how did they cling on when they were so outnumbered? A lot of white people in the states would still have been afraid of giving power to black people regardless of their safety in numbers but they rose up and couldn't be ignored, how come that wasn't possible in SA?

They had a good economy which most people were happy with. Black people who had jobs were probably in no mood to rock the boat. SA being the richest country in Africa (at the time) ment they were well off compared to others and had not much reason to rise up. Put it this way, I doubt many emigrated to other African countries.

[simonokeeffe]

Black South Africans, in the main, dont want to play rugby , and of those that do, very few of them have the physical ability to play rugby at Bok level, I know this lad from when I was over there, could play anywhere in the backline quick as lightning, unreal step, pass of either hand, kicking game, can catch everything, but he only weighed about 65/70kg and was about all of 5'7, and he was in a professional academy setup, he would get murdered playing high level rugby for an extended period, his body would just break down.

You can have all the positive discrimination you want, but when your targets either dont want to play the game, or dont have the physical or mental capacity(see the likes of a Daniel Adongo and multiply him by 100) to play the game you are onto a loser.

Its also funny to not there are no quotas for Indian south african players, do they not deserve to be represented?

was going to be smart and start saying Aplon, Shane Williams, Stringer but theyre 78, 80, 73 kg

[Golf Man]

You can have all the positive discrimination you want, but when your targets either dont want to play the game, or dont have the physical or mental capacity(see the likes of a Daniel Adongo and multiply him by 100) to play the game you are onto a loser.

Its also funny to not there are no quotas for Indian south african players, do they not deserve to be represented?

Hmmmmmm

While there is something in what you say about the desire to play the game (it is an elitist sport after all and this is even more pronounced in SA), and soccer is very much the sport of the common people in SA, like everywhere else really. However the 41% figure would suggest that there is a desire there

The suggestion that black South Africans (the targets) don't have the physical or mental capacity to play the game is strange one to say the least. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that its just badly worded, but that's kind of straying into Ron Atkinson territory, and has no basis in fact (look at any sport, anywhere)

I would generally like to keep positive discrimination out of sport, but in this case (the Boks are high profile and very visibly linked to White South Africa and to the apartheid era) I believe that the case is absolute for the strategy , althopugh getting that right is hugely difficult

[LeRouxIsPHat]

That's my point though, how did they cling on when they were so outnumbered? A lot of white people in the states would still have been afraid of giving power to black people regardless of their safety in numbers but they rose up and couldn't be ignored, how come that wasn't possible in SA?

They had a good economy which most people were happy with. Black people who had jobs were probably in no mood to rock the boat. SA being the richest country in Africa (at the time) ment they were well off compared to others and had not much reason to rise up. Put it this way, I doubt many emigrated to other African countries.

Interesting, I guess I can kind of see how that would work. I wonder if many black South Africans were even aware of what was happening in the States and that they deserved more?

[leinster4life13]

You can have all the positive discrimination you want, but when your targets either dont want to play the game, or dont have the physical or mental capacity(see the likes of a Daniel Adongo and multiply him by 100) to play the game you are onto a loser.

Its also funny to not there are no quotas for Indian south african players, do they not deserve to be represented?

Hmmmmmm

While there is something in what you say about the desire to play the game (it is an elitist sport after all and this is even more pronounced in SA), and soccer is very much the sport of the common people in SA, like everywhere else really. However the 41% figure would suggest that there is a desire there

The suggestion that black South Africans (the targets) don't have the physical or mental capacity to play the game is strange one to say the least. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that its just badly worded, but that's kind of straying into Ron Atkinson territory, and has no basis in fact (look at any sport, anywhere)

I would generally like to keep positive discrimination out of sport, but in this case (the Boks are high profile and very visibly linked to White South Africa and to the apartheid era) I believe that the case is absolute for the strategy , althopugh getting that right is hugely difficult

I was being glib, lol, not trying to Ron Atkinson myself. What I meant, is, that due to the situation/structures in SA from youth rugby upwards its very rare to get black players who have both the mental side of the game and physical, eg like Habana, Pieterson etc who do have it. Chilliboy Rallepalle is a prime example of this, technically and mentally he was always a good player, but physically he just wasnt at the requisite standard and was fast tracked due to quotas and played above his physical capacity and broke down. Imo it comes from a variety of factors, black south africans genetically are by and large not built for rugby in the same way Afrikaners are, its just a fact, and dont meet what Bok rugby is looking for in a player(rightly or wrongly) in certain positions, this comes to to diet, social status and genetics, you cant make a black player a tough 6'9 and 120kg farmer strength fella through quotas, you are talking about a cultural/ethnic creation that manifested itself over centuries.
The mental side of the game comes from playing rugby from a young age, or similar sports, the crossover from a lifetime of playing football is minimal. You cant take a soccer player when he is fifteen/sixteen, poor diet from childhood(and his parents childhood, and their parents etc), hand him a rugby ball, throw a load of food and weights at him and viola, here is your next Bok(well you might, but that is down to chance). What happens is, they are hidden by the fact rugby is a team game, they are paper quotas, everything looks great at under age, all targets being met, but then there is the outrage when they dont transition to a higher level where you cant hide and the cry of racism starts and the situation we have now, and the solution touted, implement quotas at a higher level.
Its no good(for the player or SA rugby) fast tracking and putting quota players in as the majority of them either lack the mental or physical side of the game, you cannot create a rugby through sociological quota experiments. What the ANC need to do if they are serious about bringing on black players is to build pitches and fund rugby in the townships, there is an element of revenge in all of this, if you listen to the political rhetoric. State enforced quotas without state funding to help fill the positions the quotas creates, its isnt logical. You also cant force someone to play rugby or go to watch it, outside of the Eastern Cape, interest is minimal.
All this will do lead is a talent drain overseas, as has happened is literally every other sector of SA society, prime example; Eksom.

TL;DR, you cannot fast track what is a cultural change, it needs to be bottom up change, organic, without quotas.

[fourthirtythree]

That's my point though, how did they cling on when they were so outnumbered? A lot of white people in the states would still have been afraid of giving power to black people regardless of their safety in numbers but they rose up and couldn't be ignored, how come that wasn't possible in SA?

They had a good economy which most people were happy with. Black people who had jobs were probably in no mood to rock the boat. SA being the richest country in Africa (at the time) ment they were well off compared to others and had not much reason to rise up. Put it this way, I doubt many emigrated to other African countries.

Interesting, I guess I can kind of see how that would work. I wonder if many black South Africans were even aware of what was happening in the States and that they deserved more?

f%~k yeah. They weren't stupid.

A violent, heavily armed, and unrestrained state kept them down. Beatings, shootings, imprisonment: that was how they stopped things changing along with not offering the majority any say in the running of the country. A heavily armed white population that could shoot black people without fear of legal intervention or reprisal also helped.

[simonokeeffe]

to make matters worse they have to play the world cup looking like theyve swimming armbands on

[Golf Man]

I was being glib, lol, not trying to Ron Atkinson myself. What I meant, is, that due to the situation/structures in SA from youth rugby upwards its very rare to get black players who have both the mental side of the game and physical, eg like Habana, Pieterson etc who do have it. Chilliboy Rallepalle is a prime example of this, technically and mentally he was always a good player, but physically he just wasnt at the requisite standard and was fast tracked due to quotas and played above his physical capacity and broke down. Imo it comes from a variety of factors, black south africans genetically are by and large not built for rugby in the same way Afrikaners are, its just a fact, and dont meet what Bok rugby is looking for in a player(rightly or wrongly) in certain positions, this comes to to diet, social status and genetics, you cant make a black player a tough 6'9 and 120kg farmer strength fella through quotas, you are talking about a cultural/ethnic creation that manifested itself over centuries.
The mental side of the game comes from playing rugby from a young age, or similar sports, the crossover from a lifetime of playing football is minimal. You cant take a soccer player when he is fifteen/sixteen, poor diet from childhood(and his parents childhood, and their parents etc), hand him a rugby ball, throw a load of food and weights at him and viola, here is your next Bok(well you might, but that is down to chance). What happens is, they are hidden by the fact rugby is a team game, they are paper quotas, everything looks great at under age, all targets being met, but then there is the outrage when they dont transition to a higher level where you cant hide and the cry of racism starts and the situation we have now, and the solution touted, implement quotas at a higher level.
Its no good(for the player or SA rugby) fast tracking and putting quota players in as the majority of them either lack the mental or physical side of the game, you cannot create a rugby through sociological quota experiments. What the ANC need to do if they are serious about bringing on black players is to build pitches and fund rugby in the townships, there is an element of revenge in all of this, if you listen to the political rhetoric. State enforced quotas without state funding to help fill the positions the quotas creates, its isnt logical. You also cant force someone to play rugby or go to watch it, outside of the Eastern Cape, interest is minimal.
All this will do lead is a talent drain overseas, as has happened is literally every other sector of SA society, prime example; Eksom.

TL;DR, you cannot fast track what is a cultural change, it needs to be bottom up change, organic, without quotas.

I don't disagree with your points in general, and obviously the culture of rugby amongst the Afrikaans community will count for a huge huge amount. It goes without saying that the development of black players has to start from a really young age, and structures have to be in place to facilitate the gifted black kids (in the way that is already there for the gifted white ones). Just implementing it in this way should in theory mean that in 20-30 years you have a good balance (Bearing in mind it will remain a minority sport in SA, and will have a disproportionate amount of whites). The actual likelihood though is that it would take far far longer. The advantage of having positive role models for young black kids should not be understated - kids are far more likley to stick with the game if they see people who have faced the same struggles as them and come through it

Couple of other points - Eksom - skill shortages are one of their issues - increased demand is a far bigger one (again the context of SA pre and post apartheid, and the particular role of rugby in that has to be considered)

black south africans genetically are by and large not built for rugby in the same way Afrikaners are, its just a fact, and dont meet what Bok rugby is looking for in a player(rightly or wrongly) in certain positions, - this is patent bollocksology - it is not a fact (the simple fact that there are 1o times as many "blacks" as there are Afrikaans is far more important than any slight genetic advantage. Afrikaaners have far more of a nurture advantage than a nature advanatge

[dropkick]

Golfman, on wikipedia it says the average height in SA is 5'6.5" which isn't very tall. A few black players like the Beast is not from SA. Whites might be over represented in SA but pacific islanders are overrepresented in white countries. Same thing

[paddyor]

You can have all the positive discrimination you want, but when your targets either dont want to play the game, or dont have the physical or mental capacity(see the likes of a Daniel Adongo and multiply him by 100) to play the game you are onto a loser.

Its also funny to not there are no quotas for Indian south african players, do they not deserve to be represented?

Hmmmmmm

While there is something in what you say about the desire to play the game (it is an elitist sport after all and this is even more pronounced in SA), and soccer is very much the sport of the common people in SA, like everywhere else really. However the 41% figure would suggest that there is a desire there

The suggestion that black South Africans (the targets) don't have the physical or mental capacity to play the game is strange one to say the least. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that its just badly worded, but that's kind of straying into Ron Atkinson territory, and has no basis in fact (look at any sport, anywhere)

I would generally like to keep positive discrimination out of sport, but in this case (the Boks are high profile and very visibly linked to White South Africa and to the apartheid era) I believe that the case is absolute for the strategy , althopugh getting that right is hugely difficult

I was being glib, lol, not trying to Ron Atkinson myself. What I meant, is, that due to the situation/structures in SA from youth rugby upwards its very rare to get black players who have both the mental side of the game and physical, eg like Habana, Pieterson etc who do have it. Chilliboy Rallepalle is a prime example of this, technically and mentally he was always a good player, but physically he just wasnt at the requisite standard and was fast tracked due to quotas and played above his physical capacity and broke down. Imo it comes from a variety of factors, black south africans genetically are by and large not built for rugby in the same way Afrikaners are, its just a fact, and dont meet what Bok rugby is looking for in a player(rightly or wrongly) in certain positions, this comes to to diet, social status and genetics, you cant make a black player a tough 6'9 and 120kg farmer strength fella through quotas, you are talking about a cultural/ethnic creation that manifested itself over centuries.
The mental side of the game comes from playing rugby from a young age, or similar sports, the crossover from a lifetime of playing football is minimal. You cant take a soccer player when he is fifteen/sixteen, poor diet from childhood(and his parents childhood, and their parents etc), hand him a rugby ball, throw a load of food and weights at him and viola, here is your next Bok(well you might, but that is down to chance). What happens is, they are hidden by the fact rugby is a team game, they are paper quotas, everything looks great at under age, all targets being met, but then there is the outrage when they dont transition to a higher level where you cant hide and the cry of racism starts and the situation we have now, and the solution touted, implement quotas at a higher level.
Its no good(for the player or SA rugby) fast tracking and putting quota players in as the majority of them either lack the mental or physical side of the game, you cannot create a rugby through sociological quota experiments. What the ANC need to do if they are serious about bringing on black players is to build pitches and fund rugby in the townships, there is an element of revenge in all of this, if you listen to the political rhetoric. State enforced quotas without state funding to help fill the positions the quotas creates, its isnt logical. You also cant force someone to play rugby or go to watch it, outside of the Eastern Cape, interest is minimal.
All this will do lead is a talent drain overseas, as has happened is literally every other sector of SA society, prime example; Eksom.

TL;DR, you cannot fast track what is a cultural change, it needs to be bottom up change, organic, without quotas.

Source for the fact? The idea that you couldn't fashion more players from 41% of the playing numbers based on genetics is bullshit.SA have fielded there share of gash players and they're not all people of colour.

SA also has a massive steroid problem, not all related to sport(has a lot to do with vanity), which no doubt contributes to richer white people getting ahead of competitors. Course your cool with that.

[leinster4life13]

I don't disagree with your points in general, and obviously the culture of rugby amongst the Afrikaans community will count for a huge huge amount. It goes without saying that the development of black players has to start from a really young age, and structures have to be in place to facilitate the gifted black kids (in the way that is already there for the gifted white ones). Just implementing it in this way should in theory mean that in 20-30 years you have a good balance (Bearing in mind it will remain a minority sport in SA, and will have a disproportionate amount of whites). The actual likelihood though is that it would take far far longer. The advantage of having positive role models for young black kids should not be understated - kids are far more likley to stick with the game if they see people who have faced the same struggles as them and come through it

Couple of other points - Eksom - skill shortages are one of their issues - increased demand is a far bigger one (again the context of SA pre and post apartheid, and the particular role of rugby in that has to be considered)

black south africans genetically are by and large not built for rugby in the same way Afrikaners are, its just a fact, and dont meet what Bok rugby is looking for in a player(rightly or wrongly) in certain positions, - this is patent bollocksology - it is not a fact (the simple fact that there are 1o times as many "blacks" as there are Afrikaans is far more important than any slight genetic advantage. Afrikaaners have far more of a nurture advantage than a nature advanatge

"slight genetic advantage", thats not what I said, I said, the physical characteristics Bok selectors look for by and large are not present in Black South Africans, white players have been disadvantaged by this too, for my money Brussouw is the best openside in the country, yet he is not the required height. Same with countless black backrowers, Carr, Johnson, kolisi, all dont have the physical characteristics to be long term boks, according to the selectoral criteria currently used.
As for it being nurture v nature, Look at the genetic height differential between Afrikaners v "native" south africans, you cant do anything about that.Never mind the population number, take the number of population who are over 6ft and 90kg natural with no training, there are more Afrikaners who fit that criteria then blacks. Its like complaining about Fijians being built for rugby, or northern/eastern euro's for strength its a genetic quirk. Afrikaners are mostly Dutch stock, add loads of sunlight, meat and steroids, you basically have your ideal rugby player.

[leinster4life13]

Source for the fact? The idea that you couldn't fashion more players from 41% of the playing numbers based on genetics is bullshit.SA have fielded there share of gash players and they're not all people of colour.

SA also has a massive steroid problem, not all related to sport(has a lot to do with vanity), which no doubt contributes to richer white people getting ahead of competitors. Course your cool with that.

See my post above^ Genetics play a massive part. I dont know if you have ever been to SA, the difference is stark, Im a relatively "big" guy compared to your average Irish person, a shade under 6ft and about 92/4odd kg, most Afrikans country lads are about 100kg+ easily and 6'2/3 average, they dwarf you. I'm not not saying genetics alone are the reason why black players aren't coming through(as I pointed out in my post(s) above), but it is a factor, in the same way there are zero Indians coming through. Investment at youth level could bridge the gap, but you will still be face with the same conundrum, talent being equal, a 6ft guy vs a 6ft4 guy, the Boks always pick the 6ft4 guy. Size matters.

Put it this way, Bolla conradie/ricky Januarie are your template for Black South Africans, Schalk Burger/Duane Vermeuelen are your template for Afrikaners......I know which genetic pool I am growing my team from.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Whilst there may be something in what you're saying, a couple of the examples aren't good. Brussouw was undone by a combination of destroying his knee and the directive to enforce the clear release by the tackler. Ralepelle was an outstanding underage talent so don't think his promotion had much to do with quotas, they understandably thought he was going to be a star so tried to get him up to speed quickly. They did the same with Michael Claasens and Meyer Bosman, two white guys with the "ideal" physiques and they didn't make it either.

[fourthirtythree]

In these discussions on here people always talk about the genotype when they really mean the phenotype.

[leinster4life13]

Whilst there may be something in what you're saying, a couple of the examples aren't good. Brussouw was undone by a combination of destroying his knee and the directive to enforce the clear release by the tackler. Ralepelle was an outstanding underage talent so don't think his promotion had much to do with quotas, they understandably thought he was going to be a star so tried to get him up to speed quickly. They did the same with Michael Claasens and Meyer Bosman, two white guys with the "ideal" physiques and they didn't make it either.

I never said Rallpalle was a quota player, im saying he was quality and because of that they put him in before he was ready, to fill the need for quota players, He would have got there maybe a year or two later with more physical development, as it was he was fast tracked and basically spent most of his career fighting injuries because of it.
As for Brussouw, we'll have to disagree, when he's fit he is the best link man, ball playing openside as well as being a nuisance on the deck in SA, and they need him to go toe to toe with any of Australias quartet of opensides. I would have him in there ahead of Louw, even when fit and firing Brussouw wasnt picked, it took outstanding games on his part (and Burger being banned iirc?) for him to get into the team to face the Lions.