SARU OFFICIALLY PUT RACISM IN WRITING

[Flash Gordon]

In South Africa the blacks and the coloured hate each other more then they hate the whites and they both hate economic immigrants more then anyone. All whipped up by the ANC. Its a horrible degenerite hole of a country. A cesspit of racial hatred and mistrust. I was there for the Lions tour. I would NEVER go back in a million years.

For the main part the blacks have zero interest in the game of Rugby. Footbal is the game they play. There are no whites playing in the Bafana squad but no one crys foul there.

This is a complete non story whipped up by the ANC.

The comment about soccer is why this is racist. As you say, there are almost no white players on the international soccer team and the sports or olympic councils are doing absolutely nothing about that. For me, sporting participation tends to stem from things your parents were into. When I was a kid my dad brought me to soccer, athletics, rugby and cricket and those were the games we played in the garden and then in organised sport. He wasn't interested in GAA or horse racing and I'm not interested in these sports now.

Nobody in Ireland is going around trying to impose quotas on the GAA because there aren't enough protestants playing and rightly so. The only thing that matters is that everybody has equal access to sports should they chose to play. In South Africa, all you need is a shorts and a shirt (you don't even need boots!).

There almost isn't a single accurate sentence in that post! Firstly, protestant participation to GAA is far in excess of their numbers in the general population in Ireland and has always been, both on and off the pitch. From Sam Maguire to Jack Boothman, protestants have been some of the most ardent and bigoted Gaels.

Secondly, the representation of white players on the National team in South Africa is pretty much in line with their prevalence in the professional game in the country and overseas as an entirety. Some selections a little more, some a little less. But its not a big deal because the big difference is that Soccer wasn't the game of choice of the racist the way Rugby was - so with all the brain dead okes chasing eggs and its populist nature as a sport, apartheid never really took hold in south african soccer - simply because aside from anything, enough whites weren't interested in the game to actually have something to be apart from, and as a professional sport the colour of ones money was far more important than the colour of ones skin. Complaining about the lack of whites in South Africa soccer is like complaining about the level of eskimo participation in road bowling.

Thirdly the current captain of Bafana Bafana is white!

I'm not complaining about the fact that the soccer team is almost entirely black nor that there is a white bias in the South African rugby team. My point is that generally, you play the sports your parents got you into so soccer is more of a black sport whereas whites tend to be over represented in rugby. This, in my opinion, is because when you're a kid your parents tend to bring you to games or get you in involved in sports they like - that's why in soccer, rugby and GAA clubs you often see generations of families.

I have no issue with the fact that most of the South African soccer team is black or that whites are over represented on the Springbok team. The fact that the government are calling out rugby but not soccer is racist in my view because its the same situation in reverse. As you know, the South African rugby authorities have actively encouraged and supported black people getting involved in rugby - that'll be the 41%, which is massive progress.

On Protestants/Catholics in sport in Ireland, according to figures released by the Department of Culture Arts and Leisure in the North, less than 1% attended a live GAA match over the course of 2013-14, live cricket and hockey events in Northern Ireland were almost exclusively attended by those from a Protestant community background. I haven't seen any figures on participation - i know protestants have and do play GAA - think Carson played hurling!! - but I would be amazed if the demographic in the Northern counties split more or less 50/50 across the religions (as they don't in rugby)

Again, that is absolutely not an issue because if a protestant wants to play GAA or if a Catholic wants to play hockey or cricket there are no structural barriers.

[Dave Cahill]

The fact that the government are calling out rugby but not soccer is racist in my view because its the same situation in reverse. As you know, the South African rugby authorities have actively encouraged and supported black people getting involved in rugby - that'll be the 41%, which is massive progress.

Its not massive progress, its a steadily declining figure from the highs of the immediate post-apartheid era and a reflection of the disillusionment of the black and coloured populace with the lack of transformation in South African rugby. Comparing it to soccer is invalid. There are no representational disparities in South African soccer like there are in rugby and within that representation, there are no positional disparities, again like in rugby. The government doesn't call out soccer because there is nothing to call it out for (on racial lines at least).

In Ireland, protestant participation in the GAA is in line with their numbers in the country. Northern Ireland is different because the protestant and catholic communities are different and what it means to be a member of those communities is different. Even border counties in Ireland have strong protestant participation in gaelic sports

[Flash Gordon]

The fact that the government are calling out rugby but not soccer is racist in my view because its the same situation in reverse. As you know, the South African rugby authorities have actively encouraged and supported black people getting involved in rugby - that'll be the 41%, which is massive progress.

Its not massive progress, its a steadily declining figure from the highs of the immediate post-apartheid era and a reflection of the disillusionment of the black and coloured populace with the lack of transformation in South African rugby. Comparing it to soccer is invalid. There are no representational disparities in South African soccer like there are in rugby and within that representation, there are no positional disparities, again like in rugby. The government doesn't call out soccer because there is nothing to call it out for (on racial lines at least).

In Ireland, protestant participation in the GAA is in line with their numbers in the country. Northern Ireland is different because the protestant and catholic communities are different and what it means to be a member of those communities is different. Even border counties in Ireland have strong protestant participation in gaelic sports

If only 1% of Northern Protestants are going to games and the protestant population in the republic is less than 3% I don't know how its even mathematically possible for protestants to be represented in line with their share of the population even if 100% of protestants in the Republic playing GAA (and I don't even know one and I'd know a few....). Again, I really don't have a problem with Catholics out representing protestants in the GAA or Protestants out-representing Catholics in hockey or jam making I genuinely think that's down to growing up with sports your parents loved. Do you have data to back up the view that Protestants are represented in line with the population?

I think the same is true in rugby in South Africa. I was a member of the Anti Apartheid movement for years but the new South Africa has become a place with institutionalised racism, tribal discrimination and is riddled with corruption and that's what's at play here in my opinion. Do you think the sports council are right in alleging racism?

[leinster4life13]

Its not massive progress, its a steadily declining figure from the highs of the immediate post-apartheid era and a reflection of the disillusionment of the black and coloured populace with the lack of transformation in South African rugby. Comparing it to soccer is invalid. There are no representational disparities in South African soccer like there are in rugby and within that representation, there are no positional disparities, again like in rugby. The government doesn't call out soccer because there is nothing to call it out for (on racial lines at least).

In Ireland, protestant participation in the GAA is in line with their numbers in the country. Northern Ireland is different because the protestant and catholic communities are different and what it means to be a member of those communities is different. Even border counties in Ireland have strong protestant participation in gaelic sports

Translation: They aren't getting rid of the white people fast enough...Calling it transformation is utterly disingenuous, its a racist agenda.

Rugby is a pro sport, if there was this mass of international class black players waiting to be discovered they would have been, There arent a bunch of genetic freaks being kept out of the team because they are black. Sociology/political beliefs die at the door of pro sport. Look at the South African football team, they are garbage, they dont the talent/genetic aptitude for football with a massive population advantage, yet somehow that athletic inferiority is supposed to disappear because rugby needs to be transformed. How many South African footballers play at a top football team?

[Dave Cahill]

If only 1% of Northern Protestants are going to games and the protestant population in the republic is less than 3%

???

[Golf Man]

Its not massive progress, its a steadily declining figure from the highs of the immediate post-apartheid era and a reflection of the disillusionment of the black and coloured populace with the lack of transformation in South African rugby. Comparing it to soccer is invalid. There are no representational disparities in South African soccer like there are in rugby and within that representation, there are no positional disparities, again like in rugby. The government doesn't call out soccer because there is nothing to call it out for (on racial lines at least).

In Ireland, protestant participation in the GAA is in line with their numbers in the country. Northern Ireland is different because the protestant and catholic communities are different and what it means to be a member of those communities is different. Even border counties in Ireland have strong protestant participation in gaelic sports

Translation: They aren't getting rid of the white people fast enough...Calling it transformation is utterly disingenuous, its a racist agenda.

Rugby is a pro sport, if there was this mass of international class black players waiting to be discovered they would have been, There arent a bunch of genetic freaks being kept out of the team because they are black. Sociology/political beliefs die at the door of pro sport. Look at the South African football team, they are garbage, they dont the talent/genetic aptitude for football with a massive population advantage, yet somehow that athletic inferiority is supposed to disappear because rugby needs to be transformed. How many South African footballers play at a top football team?

Im far from an expert on this but to suggest that this is a racist agenda is going too far and a bit of a cop out imo

1. There is still a lot of racism in South Africa (working both ways)
2. You cannot distill racial issues in todays South Africa from the apartheid regime - its far far too early for that
3.There was man absolute need for positive discrimination in South Africa post apartheid in all areas of society
4. This positive discrimination was always going to be difficult to achieve in rugby - an almost exclusive rich white mans sport, which has a huge profile (in fact a disproportionate profile in apartheid era SA)
5. SA has to my mind done an incredible job to be where it is from where it was - coul dvery very easily have gone the way of Zimbabwe

[Flash Gordon]

If only 1% of Northern Protestants are going to games and the protestant population in the republic is less than 3%

???

Only 1% of protestants in the North go to GAA games. There are less than 3% in republic, how can they be proportionately represented in GAA? Doesn't seem mathematically possible.

[Dave Cahill]

If only 1% of Northern Protestants are going to games and the protestant population in the republic is less than 3%

???

Only 1% of protestants in the North go to GAA games. There are less than 3% in republic, how can they be proportionately represented in GAA? Doesn't seem mathematically possible.

the percentage of the protestant community in Ireland who play gaelic games is the same (actually a fair bit higher) as the percentage of the catholic community in Ireland who play gaelic games. Northern Ireland is a different country with different socio-demographic groupings - you can't make a 'sectarian' (in its literal sense) comparison because folkways in NI are very different than in Ireland.

[leinster4life13]

Im far from an expert on this but to suggest that this is a racist agenda is going too far and a bit of a cop out imo

1. There is still a lot of racism in South Africa (working both ways)
2. You cannot distill racial issues in todays South Africa from the apartheid regime - its far far too early for that
3.There was man absolute need for positive discrimination in South Africa post apartheid in all areas of society
4. This positive discrimination was always going to be difficult to achieve in rugby - an almost exclusive rich white mans sport, which has a huge profile (in fact a disproportionate profile in apartheid era SA)
5. SA has to my mind done an incredible job to be where it is from where it was - coul dvery very easily have gone the way of Zimbabwe

How can you have positive discrimination in sports, its not like a job in the public sector where you can employ any number of morons doing make work(so long as you have a strong private sector to support them), sport is a genuine meritocracy. Currently the situation is, "Sorry son, I know you are the best in your position, but I need to have a black player in your position, so the lad sitting on the bench is getting the academy spot/being selected for underage honours", the people this is effecting weren't born when apartheid existed. Its basically against everything sport is supposed to stand for. Also, if it wasnt about getting whites out of rugby, why remove the Springbok?

[Dave Cahill]

Currently the situation is, "Sorry son, I know you are the best in your position, but I need to have a black player in your position, so the lad sitting on the bench is getting the academy spot/being selected for underage honours", the people this is effecting weren't born when apartheid existed. Its basically against everything sport is supposed to stand for. Also, if it wasnt about getting whites out of rugby, why remove the Springbok?

Its not about getting whites out of rugby, its about getting racists out of rugby. Most white South Africans couldn't really care less about the Springbok in and of itself - in fact they're really grateful for the concession of being allowed keep it on the shirt at all. Imagine if the West German soccer team kept the swastika on the sleeves of their shirts!

And its more accurate to say that "Son, I know that after generations of being well fed and cared for on the back of what was tantamount to slave labour you are now a prime slab of muscle bound ubermensch but apparently we now have to accept that the kaffirs are actually human beings and so its been decided that after years of you standing on their backs, you're going to have to sit on the bench because you and yours were given 25 years to put your house in order but things are worse now than when Errol Tobias played'

[dropkick]

Im far from an expert on this but to suggest that this is a racist agenda is going too far and a bit of a cop out imo

1. There is still a lot of racism in South Africa (working both ways)
2. You cannot distill racial issues in todays South Africa from the apartheid regime - its far far too early for that
3.There was man absolute need for positive discrimination in South Africa post apartheid in all areas of society
4. This positive discrimination was always going to be difficult to achieve in rugby - an almost exclusive rich white mans sport, which has a huge profile (in fact a disproportionate profile in apartheid era SA)
5. SA has to my mind done an incredible job to be where it is from where it was - coul dvery very easily have gone the way of Zimbabwe

"Positive" discrimination.

[leinster4life13]

Currently the situation is, "Sorry son, I know you are the best in your position, but I need to have a black player in your position, so the lad sitting on the bench is getting the academy spot/being selected for underage honours", the people this is effecting weren't born when apartheid existed. Its basically against everything sport is supposed to stand for. Also, if it wasnt about getting whites out of rugby, why remove the Springbok?

Its not about getting whites out of rugby, its about getting racists out of rugby. Most white South Africans couldn't really care less about the Springbok in and of itself - in fact they're really grateful for the concession of being allowed keep it on the shirt at all. Imagine if the West German soccer team kept the swastika on the sleeves of their shirts!

And its more accurate to say that "Son, I know that after generations of being well fed and cared for on the back of what was tantamount to slave labour you are now a prime slab of muscle bound ubermensch but apparently we now have to accept that the kaffirs are actually human beings and so its been decided that after years of you standing on their backs, you're going to have to sit on the bench because you and yours were given 25 years to put your house in order but things are worse now than when Errol Tobias played'

LOL, the Springbok is hardly a swastika, its a symbol of the SA rugby team as much as the silver fern is for NZ and the Red Rose is for England, as for them not caring, dont know what people you spoke to, but for anyone I know, its an issue, its viewed as an attack on Afrikaner culture.

Translation, "its not racism if its against white people", what type of mental gymnastics do you have to do to be supposedly anti apartheid on the one hand, yet promote those same values on the other, bizarre. Why is it ok to punish someone for the "sins" of their fathers? When does it end? When the Springbok team is 90% black to "reflect" the population?

[johng]

Translation, "its not racism if its against white people"

That's why it's called "positive" discrimination.

It's a contentious issue. Same as quotas for women in politics. The hope is that after a time of adjustment that the best people will get in. But that something has to be done to get people on an even keel.

Not sure I wholly agree with it. But it is not really my fight.

[Dave Cahill]

LOL, the Springbok is hardly a swastika, its a symbol of the SA rugby team as much as the silver fern is for NZ and the Red Rose is for England, as for them not caring, dont know what people you spoke to, but for anyone I know, its an issue, its viewed as an attack on Afrikaner culture.

Translation, "its not racism if its against white people", what type of mental gymnastics do you have to do to be supposedly anti apartheid on the one hand, yet promote those same values on the other, bizarre. Why is it ok to punish someone for the "sins" of their fathers? When does it end? When the Springbok team is 90% black to "reflect" the population?

It ends when the team is picked on merit to reflect and represent the rugby playing population of the country - the same as every other team is picked. It is perfectly acceptable to punish people for the sins of their forebears, it happens all the time under law, particularly in the field of human rights, its why Ryan Reynolds is getting good reviews for a change for example.

Its not viewed as an attack on Afrikaner culture, most Afrikaners are happy with the current situation and most are behind the King Protea as a unifying symbol. Its a vocal minority who are so exercised about this matter, not helped by the clumsiness of, again a minority of ANC elements, in the opposing camp.



I wouldn't worry about you driving the Babel Fish to extinction either

[simonokeeffe]

Translation, "its not racism if its against white people"

That's why it's called "positive" discrimination.

It's a contentious issue. Same as quotas for women in politics. The hope is that after a time of adjustment that the best people will get in. But that something has to be done to get people on an even keel.

Not sure I wholly agree with it. But it is not really my fight.

Is there a quota for the South African womens team?

[leinster4life13]

It ends when the team is picked on merit to reflect and represent the rugby playing population of the country - the same as every other team is picked. It is perfectly acceptable to punish people for the sins of their forebears, it happens all the time under law, particularly in the field of human rights, its why Ryan Reynolds is getting good reviews for a change for example.

Its not viewed as an attack on Afrikaner culture, most Afrikaners are happy with the current situation and most are behind the King Protea as a unifying symbol. Its a vocal minority who are so exercised about this matter, not helped by the clumsiness of, again a minority of ANC elements, in the opposing camp.



I wouldn't worry about you driving the Babel Fish to extinction either

"It ends when the team is picked on merit to reflect and represent the rugby playing population of the country - the same as every other team is picked"- What if that team is 100% white? No team is picked to "represent the rugby playing population of the country", the best players are picked, end of story. I presume your campaign for underage international teams in Ireland to have an equal representation from clubs and non traditional areas is just about to launch any day now...

Using human rights/international law (which is corrupt and based upon the whims of the likes of the UN security council), is hardly a ringing endorsement of anything, the ICTY fiasco is a prime example of this. Punishing young white rugby players because of their skin colour and their "forbears alleged actions", its psychotic, that is the type of "equality" that leads to civil wars.

Most are not behind the King Protea http://www.iol.co.za/sport/rugby/spring ... dOlgH2SNgE Google shows countless articles with the same tone, its an ANC decison.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... mblem.html

[Dave Cahill]

"It ends when the team is picked on merit to reflect and represent the rugby playing population of the country - the same as every other team is picked"- What if that team is 100% white? No team is picked to "represent the rugby playing population of the country", the best players are picked, end of story. I presume your campaign for underage international teams in Ireland to have an equal representation from clubs and non traditional areas is just about to launch any day now...

In countries with well run bodies, then its not an issue what the makeup of the team is because there is confidence that the team is picked on merit. That rules South Africa out.

Using human rights/international law (which is corrupt and based upon the whims of the likes of the UN security council), is hardly a ringing endorsement of anything, the ICTY fiasco is a prime example of this. Punishing young white rugby players because of their skin colour and their "forbears alleged actions", its psychotic, that is the type of "equality" that leads to civil wars.

Utter bunkum

Most are not behind the King Protea http://www.iol.co.za/sport/rugby/spring ... dOlgH2SNgE Google shows countless articles with the same tone, its an ANC decison.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... mblem.html

Google shows countless articles that The Shining was made by Kubrick as an apology for his part in faking the moon landings. I don't need google, I lived in SA and I talk to people there regularly.

[Golf Man]

leinster4life - while the principles are sound I don't think you are making allowance for the context

Of course race should have no place to play in sports or selection in a general sense - I don't thin anyone would argue that

However rugby in South Africa realy doesn't fit with a standard sport scenario(use your example of the Irish rugby team). Rugby and the Springboks became a symbol of the apartheid regime - the game itself contributed to this (NZ not selecting Maori for SA tours, and then this changed them being allowed on the basis of being "honorary whites" see far fetched now but it is realy not that long ago. The continued tours of SA ignoring the racist make of SA rugby (remember whites, blacks and cloureds had to play separately and ha sifferent associations with only the white one having a say in the national team). There is a reason that Mandela did wat he did with the Springboks - it wsn't because he was a big rugby fan

Positive discrimination or affirmative action is a bit of a minefield but if ever there was a case for positivbe discrimination this is it. Its all well and good to say it should just be based purely on merit, and there is a case that maybe it should be more focused on the underage, but the simple fact is that if you allow nature to take its course it will take many decades (if at all) before there is any kind of balance.

There is an element of short term pain here - if there was no positive discrimination and in 20 years SA was fielding an all white tea- do you really think they would survive - not a hope. With this short term "pain" they are far better geared to have a far stronger, more inclusive, more supported reflection of SA in years tcome

[kermischocolate]

Translation, "its not racism if its against white people"

That's why it's called "positive" discrimination.

It's a contentious issue. Same as quotas for women in politics. The hope is that after a time of adjustment that the best people will get in. But that something has to be done to get people on an even keel.

Not sure I wholly agree with it. But it is not really my fight.

Is there a quota for the South African womens team?

Good question. It applies to the mens 7s so I'd imagine it applies to all teams. Maybe there isn't the same "problem" in the women's game?
The quotas aren't absolute but anything that doesn't fit (e.g. due to injuries etc) has to go through various channels to be sanctioned.

[Fireworks]

leinster4life - while the principles are sound I don't think you are making allowance for the context

Of course race should have no place to play in sports or selection in a general sense - I don't thin anyone would argue that

However rugby in South Africa realy doesn't fit with a standard sport scenario(use your example of the Irish rugby team). Rugby and the Springboks became a symbol of the apartheid regime - the game itself contributed to this (NZ not selecting Maori for SA tours, and then this changed them being allowed on the basis of being "honorary whites" see far fetched now but it is realy not that long ago. The continued tours of SA ignoring the racist make of SA rugby (remember whites, blacks and cloureds had to play separately and ha sifferent associations with only the white one having a say in the national team). There is a reason that Mandela did wat he did with the Springboks - it wsn't because he was a big rugby fan

Positive discrimination or affirmative action is a bit of a minefield but if ever there was a case for positivbe discrimination this is it. Its all well and good to say it should just be based purely on merit, and there is a case that maybe it should be more focused on the underage, but the simple fact is that if you allow nature to take its course it will take many decades (if at all) before there is any kind of balance.

There is an element of short term pain here - if there was no positive discrimination and in 20 years SA was fielding an all white tea- do you really think they would survive - not a hope. With this short term "pain" they are far better geared to have a far stronger, more inclusive, more supported reflection of SA in years tcome

This is a complicated issue where all sides have dirty hands. The question I would ask is whether there are black guys in SA that should be making the team on merit. We have a provincial bias here where there is dismay when one provinces guy is picked over a "lesser" player from the next province. Add in race and SA's history and you complicate it more. So if there are no clear cases of definitively superior black players not being picked or a statistical case of 50/50 calls all going the way of whites what case is there to answer.

Also rugby is not a professional sport that you can easily move to at a later age and be successful internationally. It requires development from a young age. For me they need to focus on the underage levels and and build over time.

If there are that many great black players being overlooked maybe we need to send out Leinster scouts out to educate them on the joys of a winter in Dublin.