Who,will replace Paul O'Connell as captain of the Irish side

[Oldschoolsocks]

This is why Heaslip is perfect as interim captain so to speak, whoever takes it is going to be on a hiding to nothing taking over from POC (like Clough taking over from Revie or Des Lynam taking over from Richard Whitely) and will be questions over whether they can make RWC 2019 either age/fitness or keeping their place but Heaslip is a big enough boy to get on with it

Plus without reading Joe's mind we don't know if he will be our coach after summer 2017

Kearney is a curious case as he is unlikely to be shifted in the next 2 or 3 years but is not blowing anyone away
It will take someone special to dislodge him at Leinster, Ulster's fullback will be Pitau for the next couple of years, Ludik this season so an NIQ either way, Leader at Connacht unlikely to do it in the next couple of years
Zebo has the potential to overtake him but can't see that happening with Felix Jones playing well, captaining when POM is unavailable and Munster needing a defensively solid fullback

Zebo has the potential to absolutely - if Schmidt changes the approach slightly then he needs to bring players like Zebo in more - I don't thionk iwould take too much to dislodge Jones (lot depends on where Earls is playing though)

yeah where Earls features will be interesting, I have a feeling it will be the wing

though would be interesting if Zebo said (to Foley) he wanted to play fullback as much as possible as he felt it was his best chance to get into the Ireland team

Can Earls field a high ball, if he can I can see awesome potential there.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I suggested that Rob was in the mix a couple of pages back and still think he is, but tbh I wouldn't be surprised if his best days are behind him. Pure speculation but as I've said previously he was a man on a mission for the last couple of years in green, just look at his celebrations against NZ or Scotland (I think) last year. I think he threw everything at making Ireland successful and having a real tilt at the World Cup, and with him turning 30 during the 6N I just think there'll be a natural drop off and it's a position where we can absolutely add more firepower to.

[simonokeeffe]

Can Earls field a high ball, if he can I can see awesome potential there.

cant see him getting any gametime for Munster there at all though with the resources they have

[Oldschool]

I don't think you can look at 2019 when talking about captains - the captain has to be a certainty to be in the team first and foremost - 4 years is a huge amount of time - who is most likely to be in the team in 4 years time

Henshaw, Murray, Henderson, POM, McGrath would seem like the most obvious to me - POM stands out a mile as the most obvious captain from that lot but he also stands out as the guy likely to have the most competition in the backrow

Either way I think we should look to the short term first - no problem with Best, POM or Heaslip - I don't think it should be Kearney - a full back would want to be a really really good captain to be justified in the role - I don't see that in Kearney at all.

As others have said we don't know who the squad see as their leaders, best captains etc - we can be pretty sure that POC was a great captain (as much from what guys like Monye and Williams said about him from the Lions). Heaslip doesn't seem to talk all that much to refs and sometimes doesn't appear to me to be leading on the pitch - could just be the style and everyone is hapopy with that - but with Wood, POC and BOD youalsways knew who the captain - just by looking at the interactiona nd attitude on the pitch - I doin't see that with healsip

If they decide to llok long term then it kind of has to be POM, Henshaw or Murray imo

O'Mahony certainly captures people's imagination. That sounds quite jaundiced, but it's meant in a positive way. People outside the Irish set-up already seem to regard him as a leader, despite the fact that he's one of the least capped players in the pack [ahead of Dev and nobody else, unless you include Jack McGrath ahead of Cian Healy].

I have to say that I've got my doubts about both his durability and his tackling as a blindside. There are a lot of good parts to his game, but the tackling one is a huge deal for me. I know fans of his on the board object to me bringing it up time and again, but tackling is to a blindside what box-kicking is to a scrum-half, i.e. a real tenet of the position. If he improved his tackling height, his ability to tackle on both shoulders and his tackle count, I'd stop moaning about it!

The durability issue might seem unwarranted given that he has been available for selection for a lot of caps, but I really got the feeling that he was protecting his left shoulder all the way through the tournament. It definitely took away from his work at the breakdown and ruck in the Canada and Italy games, where he was one of our least effective forwards in the starting eight. I haven't had time to look at the French game since coming home, so it'll be interesting to see how he went in that one. He was certainly very noticeable around the park and at the lineout, but that doesn't always correlate to a strong performance at the breakdown [of which there are frequently 180+ in a test match].

All told, he actually only played about 204 of a possible 400 mins of rugby in the tournament, between being rested, injured and sin-binned. I think that's a bit of an issue with regards to being a potential captain, though not a deal breaker necessarily. It might be that the surgery and recuperation time for his knee injury [an injury which can happen to anyone at practically anytime in a contact sport, so while unfortunate, not emblematic of a bigger issue] allow him to address some other lingering injuries and come back much closer to 100% than he looked at RWC15.

Presumably you realise that you've more or less made the case for Heaslip as captain on the basis of "There is nobody else", be it for reasons of age or durability or temperament.
Giving Heaslip the captaincy would be a stop gap in any event.
Ideally the captain has to be a 2, or 4 to 9. The candidates based on age and position for the next RWC are Toner, Henderson, POM and Murray.
If you go outside that Jack McGrath, Madigan and Henshaw. I'd leave wings and FB out.
A question - Should we even be bothered worrying about who'll be the captain for the next RWC?
Who's the best for the job right now is the real issue? Whoever it is is still going to have to learn on the job.

[irish_munster]

Peter o'Mahony in my opinion will be next appointed captain of Ireland, Schmidt is a fan of his leadership drive and playing style.

[meathman3]

I suggested that Rob was in the mix a couple of pages back and still think he is, but tbh I wouldn't be surprised if his best days are behind him. Pure speculation but as I've said previously he was a man on a mission for the last couple of years in green, just look at his celebrations against NZ or Scotland (I think) last year. I think he threw everything at making Ireland successful and having a real tilt at the World Cup, and with him turning 30 during the 6N I just think there'll be a natural drop off and it's a position where we can absolutely add more firepower to.

Brilliantly put - as u say it's hard to know which way he will go - some players re-invent themselves in their 30s others fade - don't think he is lighting up the world at the moment but he gives us security that other teams envy - his skills prevent teams playing a kicking game against us can't imagine facing into a huge game with Zebo etc so he may get a new lease of life - also think he may have been disappointed not to have had shot at captaincy which he is well due so maybe feels the massive effort was never rewarded - having watched others getting handed it who took it relatively easy for a few years

[paddyor]

POM has 35 caps and has been first choice pretty much since making his debut - won't be a feature in whether he is captain or not (the fact that he is experienced, first choice and has huge captaincy experience is far more important)

He wasn't first choice since making his debut:


His retirement is what cemented POMs place in the team at 6. POM was considering a move to 8 for Munster and of course he was going to take Heaslips place for Ireland (or so we were told) which seemed to disappear when Ferris announced his retirement.

i think POM could well be captain. My major worry is his manner with refs. He had a big spat with Poite (?) in the HEC in 2013/14. It's one incident and you'd hope he's learned from it but where in the past he's had POC to tutor him he'll be on his own now.

[Golf Man]

POM and Ferris Ireland careers obverlapped by 4 games - since his fifth cap POmn has essentially been first choice. Of course he was helped by Ferris injury but Ferris last played for Ireland 3 years ago. POM was never moving to 8 btw - not surewhere you are getting that from

Brilliantly put - as u say it's hard to know which way he will go - some players re-invent themselves in their 30s others fade - don't think he is lighting up the world at the moment but he gives us security that other teams envy - his skills prevent teams playing a kicking game against us can't imagine facing into a huge game with Zebo etc so he may get a new lease of life - also think he may have been disappointed not to have had shot at captaincy which he is well due so maybe feels the massive effort was never rewarded - having watched others getting handed it who took it relatively easy for a few years

Huh?
Kearney does what he says on the tin - for all his positives he is probably the prime example of what has generally been acknowledged as our biggest deficiency - while he has popped up a bit more in attack and shown a bit more in defence (prior to Argentina) his limitations are still there - and with him I'm not sure he actiually has the capability to adapt
Disappointed not to get a shot at captaincy????? After BOD there was only going to be one captain, and Heaslip was probably the only viable alternative after that (POM and Best would be other options) - how is he well due a shot at captaincy?? His reward for his "massive effort" was to be picked in the team! And this

having watched others getting handed it who took it relatively easy for a few years

- who are you talking about - POC/Heaslip????

I don't think that Kearney thinks like this for a minute - but some very impressive reaching there

[meathman3]

Kearney does what he says on the tin

- that would be a tin supplied by Joe Schmidt

for all his positives he is probably the prime example of what has generally been acknowledged as our biggest deficiency - while he has popped up a bit more in attack and shown a bit more in defence (prior to Argentina) his limitations are still there - and with him I'm not sure he actiually has the capability to adapt -

he seemed to adapt v well after a year out to Leinsters 'new' game in 2012 becoming ERC player of the year and Ireland player of the year

Disappointed not to get a shot at captaincy????? After BOD there was only going to be one captain, and Heaslip was probably the only viable alternative after that (POM and Best would be other options) - how is he well due a shot at captaincy?? -
why not I would imagine any senior player would have aspirations to captain Ireland and he is due because i think most people would agree that he and Sean O'Brien (who i think should also be included in the equation) have been the main drivers of Leinster and Ireland success for the past few years

- that would be for his play And this

having watched others getting handed it who took it relatively easy for a few years

-

who are you talking about - POC/Heaslip????

- yes neither of whom were exactly shining for Ireland when handed the role

[janeymac08]

POM has 35 caps and has been first choice pretty much since making his debut - won't be a feature in whether he is captain or not (the fact that he is experienced, first choice and has huge captaincy experience is far more important)

He wasn't first choice since making his debut:


His retirement is what cemented POMs place in the team at 6. POM was considering a move to 8 for Munster and of course he was going to take Heaslips place for Ireland (or so we were told) which seemed to disappear when Ferris announced his retirement.

i think POM could well be captain. My major worry is his manner with refs. He had a big spat with Poite (?) in the HEC in 2013/14. It's one incident and you'd hope he's learned from it but where in the past he's had POC to tutor him he'll be on his own now.

I think you are mixing him up with POC who was always having spats with Poitre. POM is very good with refs now.

[janeymac08]

- that would be for his play And this

having watched others getting handed it who took it relatively easy for a few years

-

who are you talking about - POC/Heaslip????

- yes neither of whom were exactly shining for Ireland when handed the role[/quote]

POC had not played for Ireland for about 2 years when he was 'handed the role' so its hardly surprising he wasn't shining.

[Oldschoolsocks]

POM has 35 caps and has been first choice pretty much since making his debut - won't be a feature in whether he is captain or not (the fact that he is experienced, first choice and has huge captaincy experience is far more important)

He wasn't first choice since making his debut:


His retirement is what cemented POMs place in the team at 6. POM was considering a move to 8 for Munster and of course he was going to take Heaslips place for Ireland (or so we were told) which seemed to disappear when Ferris announced his retirement.

i think POM could well be captain. My major worry is his manner with refs. He had a big spat with Poite (?) in the HEC in 2013/14. It's one incident and you'd hope he's learned from it but where in the past he's had POC to tutor him he'll be on his own now.

I think you are mixing him up with POC who was always having spats with Poitre. POM is very good with refs now.

No he's not

[Oldschoolsocks]

- that would be for his play And this

having watched others getting handed it who took it relatively easy for a few years

-

who are you talking about - POC/Heaslip????

- yes neither of whom were exactly shining for Ireland when handed the role

POC had not played for Ireland for about 2 years when he was 'handed the role' so its hardly surprising he wasn't shining. [/quote]

Do any of the above quotes gel togethet? If so how?

[johng]

Never trust someone who deliberately removes the names of people they are quoting.

[Oldschoolsocks]

Never trust someone who deliberately removes the names of people they are quoting.

Yup, had that here before

[fourthirtythree]

Nobody. Much like every centre having to be the new Brian O'Driscoll that framing causes more problems than it can potentially solve.

Best doesn't play full games or I'd have him, POM is injured for the 6N or I'd have him (though he would have to play the full games which would be a bit of a change). Kearney worries me in terms of injury and only generally peaking for big games where he has brought a physical intensity he used to lack. I am not sure he has a reliable future and was pretty quiet when leaders were needed last weekend.

We could go on through all the players that might not be playing that much or are too young (Henshaw, he has enough on his plate), I thought that the players who tried to get the team buoyed up against Italy were noticeably Oconnell and O'Mahony.

It's Heaslip who will be captain in the short term. Summer and autumn 2016 is a different story, later on another story again. We may see a clear out...

[simonokeeffe]

Nobody. Much like every centre having to be the new Brian O'Driscoll that framing causes more problems than it can potentially solve.

Best doesn't play full games or I'd have him, POM is injured for the 6N or I'd have him (though he would have to play the full games which would be a bit of a change). Kearney worries me in terms of injury and only generally peaking for big games where he has brought a physical intensity he used to lack. I am not sure he has a reliable future and was pretty quiet when leaders were needed last weekend.

We could go on through all the players that might not be playing that much or are too young (Henshaw, he has enough on his plate), I thought that the players who tried to get the team buoyed up against Italy were noticeably Oconnell and O'Mahony.

It's Heaslip who will be captain in the short term. Summer and autumn 2016 is a different story, later on another story again. We may see a clear out...

Conor Murray could tick a lot of the boxes

Joe has talked about Jack McGrath's leadership before but as long as Healy is around he's a 50 minute player at best

[hugonaut]

Nobody. Much like every centre having to be the new Brian O'Driscoll that framing causes more problems than it can potentially solve.

Best doesn't play full games or I'd have him, POM is injured for the 6N or I'd have him (though he would have to play the full games which would be a bit of a change). Kearney worries me in terms of injury and only generally peaking for big games where he has brought a physical intensity he used to lack. I am not sure he has a reliable future and was pretty quiet when leaders were needed last weekend.

We could go on through all the players that might not be playing that much or are too young (Henshaw, he has enough on his plate), I thought that the players who tried to get the team buoyed up against Italy were noticeably Oconnell and O'Mahony.

It's Heaslip who will be captain in the short term. Summer and autumn 2016 is a different story, later on another story again. We may see a clear out...

I don't think there will be any wholesale 'clear out'. I think that a lot of previous 'clear-outs' have been from coaches who have felt under pressure: both the pressure that they put on themselves, the pressure of results, external pressure from the media and - perhaps more realistically in Irish rugby circles, where the media aren't very vituperative – from a rugby public of various levels of knowledge who have a variety of fora/forums to voice their opinions.

There has in he past tended to be a bit of knee-jerk reaction with regards to World Cup results, as though one particular tournament is the sole arbiter of what's good/what's important in rugby. Basing every part of four years of work on a tournament that can be derailed by issues outside of your control in one hour-long period – the incident leading to SOB's suspension, tournament-ending injuries to Sexton, O'Connell and O'Mahony within half an hour – is a spectacularly bad way to run any sort of enterprise.

I think that Schmidt is about as smart and knowledgable a chap as these is in world rugby, and won't be one who makes any rash or loaded decisions.

The key positions where some pruning, and even surgery, will take place is at tighthead, with both Mike Ross and Nathan White well into their 30s. White may not have gone to the tournament if Marty Moore was available, and Tadhg Furlong is obviously the coming man at the position, so I think that the NZ-born player will miss out in the Six Nations and MM may get a start.

We lack quality depth in the second row, but this may not be as big an issue as feared if Donnacha Ryan can stay fit and embrace a leader's role in Munster now that O'Connell has left. A couple of big 'ifs' there, but it's worth remembering that Ryan is 4+ years younger than O'Connell and while he has had some really significant trouble with injury over the last two years, he hasn't had a lot of tread worn off through gamtime.

Behind Conor Murray, scrum-half is also an issue. Marmion, McGrath and Cooney will be pecking around Reddan, with Issac Boss exiting gracefully with three World Cup kit bags in the boot of his ute [himself and Paddy Wallace!].

I think there'll be a re-examnation of the strength in depth in the No13 jersey as well. There might be a few provincial directives issued there, because at the moment it looks like the three provinces will be fielding NIQs [Teo, Saili,and Aki] there, which doesn't do enough in terms of find a second string player to back up and eventually replace Payne when the time comes.

[Oldschoolsocks]

I think there'll be a re-examnation of the strength in depth in the No13 jersey as well. There might be a few provincial directives issued there, because at the moment it looks like the three provinces will be fielding NIQs [Teo, Saili,and Aki] there, which doesn't do enough in terms of find a second string player to back up and eventually replace Payne when the time comes.

I thought Aki was a Project player? and if Te'o stays, he'll be eligible for Ireland no?

I think Saili has been capped though

[All Blacks nil]

I think there'll be a re-examnation of the strength in depth in the No13 jersey as well. There might be a few provincial directives issued there, because at the moment it looks like the three provinces will be fielding NIQs [Teo, Saili,and Aki] there, which doesn't do enough in terms of find a second string player to back up and eventually replace Payne when the time comes.

I thought Aki was a Project player? and if Te'o stays, he'll be eligible for Ireland no?

I think Saili has been capped though

Saili has 5 caps.
Both Aki (2nd season) and Teo ( 2nd season ) are projects and will be IQ for the 2017/18 season.