ChrisUppy wrote:I don't contest Ryan's place in the squad but comparing him to SOB - I mean come on. The reason SOB gets parachuted back in the team is because he was one of the best players of his position in the world. Ireland have very few of those.
Donnacha Ryan is the 4th best lock in Ireland...
Also, the comparison with Luke holds no water. Luke is a test Lion, has also played a lot of rugby this season and has been in great form. Some people let their Zebo and Earls fanboyism get in the way of recognising this.
Fixed that for you. Donnacha Ryan has a similar reputation - he was the 2nd best lock in Ireland after Paul O'Connell 18 months ago.
As for Luke being a Test Lion - more living on reputation.
The "sound reasoning" that formed Hugo's ( whom, i'm sure is grateful for you standing up for his right to have an opinion while at the same time trying to argue against my right to form an alternative opinion) opinion seems to be that Mick Mc played 50 odd games in two seasons and displaced Douglas, whereas a long term injured Ryan only played 15 games and hasn't played international rugby in 27 months. Was McCarthy"s second season "way better* than his first season. Not sure myself but would not disagree with sound reasoning.
I think you will find on discussion forums (I know that is the wrong plural) that people make their opinion known and that some people will agree and incredible as it sounds some people will disagree with their opinion.
So just as Hugo is allowed to have his opinion and indeed back it up with "sound reasoning", I too, am allowed an opinion and indeed question the sound reasoning that formed his opinion if in my opinion his opinion is wrong.
You did not challenge his opinion (unless you have edited your posts retrospectively which you tend to do to cover your tracks), you just started spouting nonsense about Luke Fitzgerald, Sean O'Brien and some other guy I have never heard off maybe he is Brazilian? Daverage? that had nothing to do with anything hugo had said and did not make any argument for whatever point you were trying to make (or maybe you were just using your words?). Your pretty convinvincing argument for Ryan being picked was because he deserved to be picked, insightful!
Last edited by OTT on June 25th, 2015, 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Horrocks went one way, Taylor the other and I was left holding the bloody hyphen!"
hugonaut wrote:Mike McCarthy unlucky to miss out. Donnacha Ryan hasn't played a test match in 27 months – his last game was the loss against Italy in the 2013 Six Nations – and has been a massive injury worry since then, basically. He hasn't had time to put together a run of good form and frankly I'm wary of his ability to train and play and train again with his current injury. I think that it's the sort of thing that is managed rather than fixed
Pure gut feeling and speculation on my part but I could see Ryan emptying the tank to get in the World Cup squad and being fine from an Ireland point of view but then being ruined for Munster.
Really didn't expect McCarthy to be left out based on how well he played in Toulon but overall I don't think he had a good season.
One guy who I don't think has been mentioned is Nathan White. Schmidt didn't mention him as being injured and that being the case I'm surprised he's not involved. I think that means that Leinster are now guaranteed to lose 5 props, probably were anyway but now there's zero chance of having both Bent and Furlong.
The "sound reasoning" that formed Hugo's ( whom, i'm sure is grateful for you standing up for his right to have an opinion while at the same time trying to argue against my right to form an alternative opinion) opinion seems to be that Mick Mc played 50 odd games in two seasons and displaced Douglas, whereas a long term injured Ryan only played 15 games and hasn't played international rugby in 27 months. Was McCarthy"s second season "way better* than his first season. Not sure myself but would not disagree with sound reasoning.
I think you will find on discussion forums (I know that is the wrong plural) that people make their opinion known and that some people will agree and incredible as it sounds some people will disagree with their opinion.
So just as Hugo is allowed to have his opinion and indeed back it up with "sound reasoning", I too, am allowed an opinion and indeed question the sound reasoning that formed his opinion if in my opinion his opinion is wrong.
You did not challenge his opinion (unless you have edited your posts retrospectively which you tend to do to cover your tracks), you just started spouting nonsense about Luke Fitzgerald, Sean O'Brien and some other guy I have never heard off maybe he is Brazilian? Daverage? that had nothing to do with anything hugo had said and did not make any argument for whatever point you were trying to make (or maybe you were just using your words?). Your pretty convinvincing argument for Ryan being picked was because he deserved to be picked, insightful!
Sorry can't remember who posted this quote.
But jumping on people with an alternative opinion is at best pathetic
Incidentally, if I did not challenge his opinion what is the problem?
Last edited by All Blacks nil on June 25th, 2015, 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
ChrisUppy wrote:I don't contest Ryan's place in the squad but comparing him to SOB - I mean come on. The reason SOB gets parachuted back in the team is because he was one of the best players of his position in the world. Ireland have very few of those.
Donnacha Ryan is the 4th best lock in Ireland...
Also, the comparison with Luke holds no water. Luke is a test Lion, has also played a lot of rugby this season and has been in great form. Some people let their Zebo and Earls fanboyism get in the way of recognising this.
Fixed that for you. Donnacha Ryan has a similar reputation - he was the 2nd best lock in Ireland after Paul O'Connell 18 months ago.
As for Luke being a Test Lion - more living on reputation.
Yeah, D.Ryan was a fixture in the team through some of the worst performance in recent memory for sure. Nowhere near the same reputation as SOB. Go ask anyone in the Southern Hemisphere if they've heard of Donnacha Ryan.
As for the "was", tell that to his 2 try MOTM performance on the last day of 6Ns. You really must try harder.
Take off your ligind tinted glasses man, it will probably soothe that chip on your shoulder.
With such a big squad you are clutching at straws with regard to those unluckyto miss out
FR: I'm surprised Cronin has been jettisoned this early. I'm assuming that Bent is in to look at the option of him covering both sides, but personally I don't think a guy who is probably our 6th best Th and our 6th best LH should be in the squad ahead of the likes of Cronin, White etc. Disappointed that Casey has got no chance with the Irish set up - don't understand it all tbh and think Struss is there on reputation alone at this point (no surprise though)
SR: Thought there might be one extra named here - essentially a shootout between Ryan and Tuohy for the fourth slot - either will be fine imo
BR: Ruddock is obv unlucky - think Conan is very lucky to take his spot - probably would have gone with Copeland, Diack, Ryan or McKeon ahead of him
HB: Keatley is unlucky but itys understandable - interesting to see if Madigan is given time at 12 because his versatility is his biggest advantage. Everytime I look at the SH I shudder at the thought of Murray getting injured
Centres: Noel Reid is a waste of a pick - while he offers something different than Henshaw, its no different to what Madigan or Marshall offers. Darcy is there on reputation but again understandable. Pity he didn't take a gamble on McCloskey (as much as includinging someone in a 45 m,an squad can be considered a gamble)
Back 3: Matt Healy is very unlucky - don't think he could have done more - Daverage shouldn't be there
Leinster players have definitely been favoured in the tight decisions - no real surprise, no real issue either, as I don't expect any howlers in the squad
Big decisions
Props - 5 or 6 - I've koind of assumed 5 (with McGrath being 3rd choice TH) but might go to 6
Tuohy v Ryan
Centre - The biggest unknown in the squad is the backup centres - this obviously has an impact on Back 3 selection - I think I'd pick Cave - he will always do a job at 13, has been playing at 12 with Payne for Ulster. 12: Henshaw / Cave/ Madigan 13. Payne/Cave/Henshaw - without even dipping into the possibilities of Earls/Fitz
Felix Jones - it seems tobe pretty much agreed by all that they wouldn't pick Jones, but that Schmidt will. R Kearney and Bowe will obviously go. I'm not so sure - I think with a fully fit squad to choose from he may drop Jones and bring 3 of Earls, Fitz, Zebo and Trimble - As wingers I'd leave Zebo out but if you don't have Jones I think Zebo gets in as he covers fb better from the wing than any of the other options
I'd have made some different calls myself (McCloskey being one) but I can't fathom why people would be aggrieved with guys who haven't been capped not making the squad ahead of those who have played well at international level.
Casey and Matt Healy are two obvious ones. I'm not praising the form of Strauss (who's lucky there isn't more competition) or DK but would you honestly be happy going into a World Cup with Casey and Healy having only been capped in the warm up games? Especially Healy, as much as his form has been excellent and deserved a call up, there would still be 7 wingers ahead of him if you picked him instead of DK. All that work to build up to the World Cup and then people want to throw in a few bolters? Madness.
Obviously form is important to some degree but you can't forget that the vast majority of the 45 guys in that squad have played well for Ireland regardless of their provincial form, whether you agree with it or not it has to be factored in.
Getting back to the vein of the thread and not opinions.. (I've honestly never seen so many references to opinion in my life) -
I'm not really surprised that Keatley. After watching the Ospreys match in which he completely imploded on the pitch (which was horrible to watch), I just couldn't see him in the Irish squad. Not with Sexton, Madigan and Jackson there.. Hopefully he'll have a rip roaring return to form for Munster next season.
As for Ryan over McCarthy. I think Ryan at his best is better than McCarthy at his. He had a good run of form towards the end of the season. I say Joe is going to give him a run during the summer, in the hope he's going to hit some rich form and stay uninjured.
hugonaut wrote:Mike McCarthy unlucky to miss out. Donnacha Ryan hasn't played a test match in 27 months – his last game was the loss against Italy in the 2013 Six Nations – and has been a massive injury worry since then, basically. He hasn't had time to put together a run of good form and frankly I'm wary of his ability to train and play and train again with his current injury. I think that it's the sort of thing that is managed rather than fixed
Pure gut feeling and speculation on my part but I could see Ryan emptying the tank to get in the World Cup squad and being fine from an Ireland point of view but then being ruined for Munster.
Really didn't expect McCarthy to be left out based on how well he played in Toulon but overall I don't think he had a good season.
One guy who I don't think has been mentioned is Nathan White. Schmidt didn't mention him as being injured and that being the case I'm surprised he's not involved. I think that means that Leinster are now guaranteed to lose 5 props, probably were anyway but now there's zero chance of having both Bent and Furlong.
Much like Ryan, Whites injury profile allowed others to overtake him on the rails. Bent is now where Greg Feek reckoned he'd be when he was first brought in to the setup in Leinster - the early cap just skewed perceptions, and Furlong and Moore have come through like trains.
Hopefully the likes of Ryan and Trimble can use the warm-up games to show their true ability and give Joe another selection headache.
I think it's a tournament too soon for Joe for Gilroy, yes he has been superb in attack, but he's still a liability in defence, and we all know Joe likes all his players to be teak tough in defence. It's cup football after all.
Biggest worry for me is getting through warm-up games without another Wally, I still haven't forgiven Tuilagi for that
Will we need prolific wingers to have a chance of winning the World Cup?
Craig Gilroy has scored a try in 9 of his last 17 appearances for Ulster
Keith Earls has scored a try in 9 of his last 21 appearances for Munster
Simon Zebo has scored a try in 9 of his last 24 appearances for Munster
Tommy Bowe has scored a try in 9 of his last 25 appearances for Ulster
Andrew Trimble has scored a try in 9 of his last 30 appearances for Ulster
Dave Kearney has scored a try in 9 of his last 48 appearances for Leinster
Fergus McFadden has scored a try in 9 of his last 75 appearances for Leinster
Luke Fitzgerald has scored a try in 9 of his last 76 appearances with leinster
In international rugby the same players have scored as follows
Gilroy 2 tries in 6 games (1 v SCO and 1 v ARG)
Earls 12 tries in 39 games ( 3 v WAL, 2 v ITA, 2 v FIJ, 2 v RUS and 1 v FRA and ENG)
Zebo has scored 5 tries in 15 games (2 v ARG, 1 v AUS, WAL and GEORGIA)
Bowe has scored 28 tries in 64 games ( 3 v ENG, ITA , SCO and USA, 2 v WAL, SA, AUS and CAN and 1 v FRA, NZ, ARG and JAP)
Trimble has scored 14 tries in 57 games ( 3 V SCO and ITA, 2 v FRA and ROM and 1 v NZ, SA, ARG, RUS, CAN and NAM)
Kearney has scored 2 tries in 7 games (2 v SAM both in the one game)
McFadden has scored 9 tries in 28 games (3 v CAN, and 1 v SCO, FRA, ITA, NZ, RUS and SAM)
Fitzgerald has scored 2 tries in 28 games (2 v ITA also both in the one game)
Last edited by All Blacks nil on June 25th, 2015, 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ChrisUppy wrote:I don't contest Ryan's place in the squad but comparing him to SOB - I mean come on. The reason SOB gets parachuted back in the team is because he was one of the best players of his position in the world. Ireland have very few of those.
Donnacha Ryan is the 4th best lock in Ireland...
Also, the comparison with Luke holds no water. Luke is a test Lion, has also played a lot of rugby this season and has been in great form. Some people let their Zebo and Earls fanboyism get in the way of recognising this.
Fixed that for you. Donnacha Ryan has a similar reputation - he was the 2nd best lock in Ireland after Paul O'Connell 18 months ago.
As for Luke being a Test Lion - more living on reputation.
Yeah, D.Ryan was a fixture in the team through some of the worst performance in recent memory for sure. Nowhere near the same reputation as SOB. Go ask anyone in the Southern Hemisphere if they've heard of Donnacha Ryan.
As for the "was", tell that to his 2 try MOTM performance on the last day of 6Ns. You really must try harder.
Take off your ligind tinted glasses man, it will probably soothe that chip on your shoulder.
You mean the losses v Scotland & Italy by the Ireland team captained by Jamie Heaslip?
You do realise that Sean O'Brien also played in the losses v Italy and Scotland, not to mention being zeroed in New Zealand?
SOB was given a chance to get up to speed and in fairness Scotland were not up to much anyway in the Six Nations.
Last edited by janeymac08 on June 25th, 2015, 12:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Golf Man wrote:
FR: I'm surprised Cronin has been jettisoned this early.
Munster are converting Cronin to a tighthead prop and will need to have him up and running as backup to Archer by December when BJ's contract finishes. Easy to understand why Munster wouldn't want him holding tackle bags (which is what Bent will be doing) in Carton House under these circumstances.
All Blacks nil wrote:Will we need prolific wingers to have a chance of winning the World Cup?
Craig Gilroy has scored a try in 9 of his last 17 appearances for Ulster
Keith Earls has scored a try in 9 of his last 21 appearances for Munster
Simon Zebo has scored a try in 9 of his last 24 appearances for Munster
Tommy Bowe has scored a try in 9 of his last 25 appearances for Ulster
Andrew Trimble has scored a try in 9 of his last 30 appearances for Ulster
Dave Kearney has scored a try in 9 of his last 48 appearances for Leinster
Fergus McFadden has scored a try in 9 of his last 75 appearances for Leinster
Luke Fitzgerald has scored a try in 9 of his last 76 appearances with leinster
In international rugby the same players have scored as follows
Gilroy 2 tries in 6 games (1 v SCO and 1 v ARG)
Earls 15 tries in 39 games ( 3 v WAL, 2 v ITA, 2 v FIJ, 2 v RUS and 1 v FRA and ENG)
Zebo has scored 5 tries in 15 games (2 v ARG, 1 v AUS, WAL and GEORGIA)
Bowe has scored 28 tries in 64 games ( 3 v ENG, ITA , SCO and USA, 2 v WAL, SA, AUS and CAN and 1 v FRA, NZ, ARG and JAP)
Trimble has scored 14 tries in 57 games ( 3 V SCO and ITA, 2 v FRA and ROM and 1 v NZ, SA, ARG, RUS, CAN and NAM)
Kearney has scored 2 tries in 7 games (2 v SAM both in the one game)
McFadden has scored 9 tries in 28 games (3 v CAN, and 1 v SCO, FRA, ITA, NZ, RUS and SAM)
Fitzgerald has scored 2 tries in 28 games (2 v ITA also both in the one game)
Source?
"Horrocks went one way, Taylor the other and I was left holding the bloody hyphen!"
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:I'd have made some different calls myself (McCloskey being one) but I can't fathom why people would be aggrieved with guys who haven't been capped not making the squad ahead of those who have played well at international level.
Casey and Matt Healy are two obvious ones. I'm not praising the form of Strauss (who's lucky there isn't more competition) or DK but would you honestly be happy going into a World Cup with Casey and Healy having only been capped in the warm up games? Especially Healy, as much as his form has been excellent and deserved a call up, there would still be 7 wingers ahead of him if you picked him instead of DK. All that work to build up to the World Cup and then people want to throw in a few bolters? Madness.
Obviously form is important to some degree but you can't forget that the vast majority of the 45 guys in that squad have played well for Ireland regardless of their provincial form, whether you agree with it or not it has to be factored in.
Bit of a contradiction in what you are saying
Madness to think of Healy ahead of D Kearney when you would presumably have McCloskey ahead of Reid (and possibly Cave and Darcy?)
On the two cases that you mention in particular
Casey - my issue here is that Casey has been given no chance by the management team at all. Strauss in reality has little or no form in two years, and Herring is a back up (albeit a good one) to Best at Ulster. I would probably go for Strauss as 3rd hooker, but I do think Casey should have been included in extended squads over the last 12/18 months and given a fair chance - his form warranted it
Healy - D Kearney got into the 2014 6N team as a result of injuries and did pretty well, without excelling at any point. He has done little or nothing in the 18 months since then. Healy had an excellent season for Connacht meanwhile. Its no big issue - if either of them get into the WC squad we are screwed anyway because of so many injuries, but I do think that there has to be an avenue for form leading to recognition. This is particularly at the "lower" reaches of the squad - the kind of guys who don't have the big credit built up
Whites exclusion and injury profile would support theory of only 5 props (2 tightheads) going with McGrath covering sub TH if theres a last minute injury and we cant get a replacement in time
I dont think McCarthy is in amazing form but his penalty count doesnt fit in to the way Joe's Ireland tries to play compared to what else he offers. Ryan brings a lot of big game experience, more than McCarthy, think hes a better jumper at 2 as well
Conan is there as specialist 8 cover would anything befall Heaslip or Murphy
Dont think Reid has a chance in hell of going but maybe its better passing/distribution that gets him ahead of McCloskey
The glut of wingers, while better than a glut of blindsides, could be in part to Earls, Luke and McFadden possibly covering centre in the 31 as well/utility back role. But would agree not a hope of Gilroy going
Retired from babbling. Can be found on twittter @okeeffesimon
