World Cup Training Squad named

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Bit of a contradiction in what you are saying

Madness to think of Healy ahead of D Kearney when you would presumably have McCloskey ahead of Reid (and possibly Cave and Darcy?)

On the two cases that you mention in particular

Casey - my issue here is that Casey has been given no chance by the management team at all. Strauss in reality has little or no form in two years, and Herring is a back up (albeit a good one) to Best at Ulster. I would probably go for Strauss as 3rd hooker, but I do think Casey should have been included in extended squads over the last 12/18 months and given a fair chance - his form warranted it

Healy - D Kearney got into the 2014 6N team as a result of injuries and did pretty well, without excelling at any point. He has done little or nothing in the 18 months since then. Healy had an excellent season for Connacht meanwhile. Its no big issue - if either of them get into the WC squad we are screwed anyway because of so many injuries, but I do think that there has to be an avenue for form leading to recognition. This is particularly at the "lower" reaches of the squad - the kind of guys who don't have the big credit built up

You're right, I contradicted myself when I mentioned the bolters but I just meant that most of the squad should have been involved over the last while. My exceptions to that would be Furlong, McCloskey, and probably Cooney, any more than that would be overkill. You seem to think (understandably in fairness) that I'm saying that we shouldn't bring anyone who isn't experienced, when I'm actually saying its ridiculous to have an issue with a player like DK being picked ahead of someone who isn't even capped.

We're on the eve of the World Cup and a lot has gone in to preparing for it, hopefully more of those uncapped guys will get a chance in the 6N and beyond but wherever possible I don't think now is the time for that.

[Golf Man]

Whites exclusion and injury profile would support theory of only 5 props (2 tightheads) going with McGrath covering sub TH if theres a last minute injury and we cant get a replacement in time

I dont think McCarthy is in amazing form but his penalty count doesnt fit in to the way Joe's Ireland tries to play compared to what else he offers. Ryan brings a lot of big game experience, more than McCarthy, think hes a better jumper at 2 as well

Conan is there as specialist 8 cover would anything befall Heaslip or Murphy

Dont think Reid has a chance in hell of going but maybe its better passing/distribution that gets him ahead of McCloskey

The glut of wingers, while better than a glut of blindsides, could be in part to Earls, Luke and McFadden possibly covering centre in the 31 as well/utility back role. But would agree not a hope of Gilroy going

I reckon he'll go with that exact scenario for props - is the option of McGrath covering TH any less terrifying than Bent? I don't see Bent in the discussion at all really the more I think about it -> which is why its disappointing that Cronin wasn't given his place as the upside is so much better.

Backrow has 6 POM/Hendesrson 7SOB/Henry/TOD 8 Heaslip/Murphy . Given that Henderson is obviously a 4/6 and that Ruddock would have been picked (as a 6) I found it a bit strange he didn't pick a better fit replacement - he is going to need a lot of injuriues toi gaet anywhere near the squad obviously.

The decision on a couple of positions will have a huge impact elsewhere, particularly whether he brings Jones, and who is considered back up centres - I think he is keeping his options open there

For me at the moment the squad would be

Healy, McGrath, Kilcoyne
Best, Cronin, Strauss
Ross, Furlong
POC, Toner, Henderson, Ryan
POM, SOB, Healip, Henry, Murphy
Murray, REddan, Boss
Sexton Jackson, Madigan
Henshaw, Payne, Cave
R Kearney, Bowe, Earls, Fitz, Zebo

Trimble is the obvious one I've left out - he has been out a long time at this point. I do think that if you don't bring Jones that you need to bring Zebo - none of the other wingers are reasonable options at FB and Henshaw/Payne are too mailed on to be covering 15. If Madigan is seen as an option at 15 (which I wouldn't really have a problem with) then drop Zebo and put Trimble in

[All Blacks nil]

Will we need prolific wingers to have a chance of winning the World Cup?

Craig Gilroy has scored a try in 9 of his last 17 appearances for Ulster
Keith Earls has scored a try in 9 of his last 21 appearances for Munster
Simon Zebo has scored a try in 9 of his last 24 appearances for Munster
Tommy Bowe has scored a try in 9 of his last 25 appearances for Ulster
Andrew Trimble has scored a try in 9 of his last 30 appearances for Ulster
Dave Kearney has scored a try in 9 of his last 48 appearances for Leinster
Fergus McFadden has scored a try in 9 of his last 75 appearances for Leinster
Luke Fitzgerald has scored a try in 9 of his last 76 appearances with leinster

In international rugby the same players have scored as follows

Gilroy 2 tries in 6 games (1 v SCO and 1 v ARG)
Earls 12 tries in 39 games ( 3 v WAL, 2 v ITA, 2 v FIJ, 2 v RUS and 1 v FRA and ENG)
Zebo has scored 5 tries in 15 games (2 v ARG, 1 v AUS, WAL and GEORGIA)
Bowe has scored 28 tries in 64 games ( 3 v ENG, ITA , SCO and USA, 2 v WAL, SA, AUS and CAN and 1 v FRA, NZ, ARG and JAP)
Trimble has scored 14 tries in 57 games ( 3 V SCO and ITA, 2 v FRA and ROM and 1 v NZ, SA, ARG, RUS, CAN and NAM)
Kearney has scored 2 tries in 7 games (2 v SAM both in the one game)
McFadden has scored 9 tries in 28 games (3 v CAN, and 1 v SCO, FRA, ITA, NZ, RUS and SAM)
Fitzgerald has scored 2 tries in 28 games (2 v ITA also both in the one game)

Source?

Research using IRFU, Munster, Ulster and leinster rugby websites.

EDIT
just noticed a typo crediting Earls with 15 tries instead of 12. fixed that

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I think we really lacked Trimble's physicality in the 6N, I'd give him every chance to make it.

[Golf Man]

Bit of a contradiction in what you are saying

Madness to think of Healy ahead of D Kearney when you would presumably have McCloskey ahead of Reid (and possibly Cave and Darcy?)

On the two cases that you mention in particular

Casey - my issue here is that Casey has been given no chance by the management team at all. Strauss in reality has little or no form in two years, and Herring is a back up (albeit a good one) to Best at Ulster. I would probably go for Strauss as 3rd hooker, but I do think Casey should have been included in extended squads over the last 12/18 months and given a fair chance - his form warranted it

Healy - D Kearney got into the 2014 6N team as a result of injuries and did pretty well, without excelling at any point. He has done little or nothing in the 18 months since then. Healy had an excellent season for Connacht meanwhile. Its no big issue - if either of them get into the WC squad we are screwed anyway because of so many injuries, but I do think that there has to be an avenue for form leading to recognition. This is particularly at the "lower" reaches of the squad - the kind of guys who don't have the big credit built up

You're right, I contradicted myself when I mentioned the bolters but I just meant that most of the squad should have been involved over the last while. My exceptions to that would be Furlong, McCloskey, and probably Cooney, any more than that would be overkill. You seem to think (understandably in fairness) that I'm saying that we shouldn't bring anyone who isn't experienced, when I'm actually saying its ridiculous to have an issue with a player like DK being picked ahead of someone who isn't even capped.

We're on the eve of the World Cup and a lot has gone in to preparing for it, hopefully more of those uncapped guys will get a chance in the 6N and beyond but wherever possible I don't think now is the time for that.

In general I agree with you - on DK I disagree - I think most are working on eth basis that the back 3 players (most likely 5) will come from Kearney, Jones, Bowe, Trimble, Earls, Zebo & Fitz. After that you've got McFadden, Gilroy & D Kearney probably in that order -> I don't think suggestiong that a guy with 7 caps and little or no formwho realistically needs 5 guys to get injured just top get into the squad, should be jettisoned for an inform guy (who has no experience at this level)

Its no big deal really just one that jumped out at me

[OTT]

Will we need prolific wingers to have a chance of winning the World Cup?

Craig Gilroy has scored a try in 9 of his last 17 appearances for Ulster
Keith Earls has scored a try in 9 of his last 21 appearances for Munster
Simon Zebo has scored a try in 9 of his last 24 appearances for Munster
Tommy Bowe has scored a try in 9 of his last 25 appearances for Ulster
Andrew Trimble has scored a try in 9 of his last 30 appearances for Ulster
Dave Kearney has scored a try in 9 of his last 48 appearances for Leinster
Fergus McFadden has scored a try in 9 of his last 75 appearances for Leinster
Luke Fitzgerald has scored a try in 9 of his last 76 appearances with leinster

In international rugby the same players have scored as follows

Gilroy 2 tries in 6 games (1 v SCO and 1 v ARG)
Earls 12 tries in 39 games ( 3 v WAL, 2 v ITA, 2 v FIJ, 2 v RUS and 1 v FRA and ENG)
Zebo has scored 5 tries in 15 games (2 v ARG, 1 v AUS, WAL and GEORGIA)
Bowe has scored 28 tries in 64 games ( 3 v ENG, ITA , SCO and USA, 2 v WAL, SA, AUS and CAN and 1 v FRA, NZ, ARG and JAP)
Trimble has scored 14 tries in 57 games ( 3 V SCO and ITA, 2 v FRA and ROM and 1 v NZ, SA, ARG, RUS, CAN and NAM)
Kearney has scored 2 tries in 7 games (2 v SAM both in the one game)
McFadden has scored 9 tries in 28 games (3 v CAN, and 1 v SCO, FRA, ITA, NZ, RUS and SAM)
Fitzgerald has scored 2 tries in 28 games (2 v ITA also both in the one game)

Source?

Research using IRFU, Munster, Ulster and leinster rugby websites.

EDIT
just noticed a typo crediting Earls with 15 tries instead of 12. fixed that

You are also wrong (sorry a typo) on Dave Kearney it should be 51 games not 48 based on your source material.

And Luke Fitzgerald is 63 games not 76, you just post bullshit on here.

[All Blacks nil]

You are also wrong (sorry a typo) on Dave Kearney it should be 51 games not 48 based on your source material.

And Luke Fitzgerald is 63 games not 76, you just post bullshit on here.

No Earls was a typo
Kearney's and Luke's were errors on my part and you are right it was 51 games and 63 games respectively.

Still they are both playing great stuff and Luke in particular was one of the players of the season in Leinster

Source
http://forum.leinsterfans.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=23995

Incidentally in Luke's stellar year when he was rewarded with Lions selection he scored 9 tries (6 individual matches) in 20 games for Leinster and also scored all his international tries that season.
That is/was form. if he were to reproduce that type of form there would be no discussion with regards his RWC selection. that was in 2008/09 season

[OTT]

You are also wrong (sorry a typo) on Dave Kearney it should be 51 games not 48 based on your source material.

And Luke Fitzgerald is 63 games not 76, you just post bullshit on here.

No Earls was a typo
Kearney's and Luke's were errors on my part and you are right it was 51 games and 63 games respectively.

Still they are both playing great stuff and Luke in particular was one of the players of the season in Leinster

Source
http://forum.leinsterfans.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=23995

No problem, glad I could help you out.

[All Blacks nil]

Incidentally in Luke's stellar year when he was rewarded with Lions selection he scored 9 tries (6 individual matches) in 20 games for Leinster and also scored all his international tries that season.
That is/was form. if he were to reproduce that type of form there would be no discussion with regards his RWC selection. That was in the 2008/09 season.

[Dave Cahill]

That is/was form. if he were to reproduce that type of form there would be no discussion with regards his RWC selection.

In reality, you're the only one discussing it. Luke is fit, Luke starts. Discussion over. There, bandwidth saved.

[All Blacks nil]

That is/was form. if he were to reproduce that type of form there would be no discussion with regards his RWC selection.

In reality, you're the only one discussing it. Luke is fit, Luke starts. Discussion over. There, bandwidth saved.

Says it all really.

[Golf Man]

That is/was form. if he were to reproduce that type of form there would be no discussion with regards his RWC selection.

In reality, you're the only one discussing it. Luke is fit, Luke starts. Discussion over. There, bandwidth saved.

Complete and utter shite => Fitz is not guaranteed a place in the squad, let alone a starting berth -> all fit are ready to go - I'd guess that Schmidt would go with Trimble and Bowe, both of whom have produced form for Ireland under Schmiudt that Fitz has ever produced. Th efact that Fitz was selected for the last matchj in the 6N does not guarantee him anything - Zebo had a bad game v Wales but had was good in other games and is suited to the gameplan. That's before you consider Earls, who is arguably a better winger than any of them (aside from Bowe probably). Fitz does benefit from knowing Schmidt (I don't think that if the roles were completely reversed in this years 6N that he would have dropped Fitz for exam,ple if he had produced the rugby that Zebo did), and I'd pick him, but he is far from a certain starter. Some get too caught up in his lack of try scoring, some ignore it completely - same as it ever was

[fourthirtythree]

I'm not mad on the idea that Bowe is considered a nailed on starter. He's had more poor games than good ones in recent memory.

I wouldn't get concerned about Dave Kearney in a training squad. He's just there for the drills and I doubt he has a realistic chance of making the real squad. Same with McFadden. Given the fact that most of the backs are fit we have just learnt about props really.

I can't understand the calls for Casey, did anyone not see him playing recently? Thing about stats is, they aren't just data. And the stats under pressure look bad. Plus Schmidt loves him a scrummaging hooker. Which Casey isn't. Not that Strauss has been great, he certainly hasn't and you do wonder... but Casey isn't a realistic option.
I would have preferred Healy to Kearney but, if it's just someone to run drills, Kearney is probably someone that Schmidt feels is better. He knows he can tell him what to do and he'll do just that. McCloskey ahead of Reid also strikes me as a sensible option.

[Dave Cahill]

Complete and utter shite => Fitz is not guaranteed a place in the squad, let alone a starting berth -> all fit are ready to go - I'd guess that Schmidt would go with Trimble and Bowe, both of whom have produced form for Ireland under Schmiudt that Fitz has ever produced. Th efact that Fitz was selected for the last matchj in the 6N does not guarantee him anything - Zebo had a bad game v Wales but had was good in other games and is suited to the gameplan. That's before you consider Earls, who is arguably a better winger than any of them (aside from Bowe probably). Fitz does benefit from knowing Schmidt (I don't think that if the roles were completely reversed in this years 6N that he would have dropped Fitz for exam,ple if he had produced the rugby that Zebo did), and I'd pick him, but he is far from a certain starter. Some get too caught up in his lack of try scoring, some ignore it completely - same as it ever was

If Luke is fit, Luke starts. Since the first day Joe Schmidt set foot in Ireland that is the way it has been. Bowe and Fitz will start, Trimble and one from Kearney Jr, McFadden and Earls will also make the squad fitness permitting. The only place I see any doubt in the backline selection is over 2nd 5/8 - Inside Centre, will it be Madigan or D'Arcy.

[Golf Man]

except of course that's not true - Fitz was available for most of the 6n and was only picked for the last game he has featured I think twice for schmidt ireland and you have him as a guaran teed starter? you're trying too hard to troll btw the centre argument was too far

D'Arcy goes if hens haw breaks hard to see it any other way

[Dave Cahill]

except of course that's not true - Fitz was available for most of the 6n and was only picked for the last game he has featured I think twice for schmidt ireland and you have him as a guaran teed starter? you're trying too hard to troll btw the centre argument was too far

D'Arcy goes if hens haw breaks hard to see it any other way

Joe might decide that he wants a specialist instead of a utility player. D'Arcy is one of his favourite players, he built the Leinster gameplan in large part around his ability to make metres in contact.

Fitz was in the Irish squad for the 6 Nations but wasn't considered fit enough for that level until the Scotland game (although it was very close against England) - he was sent back to Leinster to get game time, and once he was fit, he was straight into the team.

[Fireworks]

Good squad. The bit that none of us knows is the game plan or plans that Joe has in his book of magic. I think the game plan will have a significant influence on the squad with different approaches needing different types of player. For example if you want a pure finisher on the wing you pick Earls over Fitz but if you want something different from your winger as Joe has appeared to then the selection is not so clear. Injury let in DK and Trimble to earn 6n medals and if they had not suffered with injury themselves they may have remained in or close to selection since then.

All I know is that I trust in Joe and I would be happy with the vast majority of that squad representing us in green.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Good squad. The bit that none of us knows is the game plan or plans that Joe has in his book of magic. I think the game plan will have a significant influence on the squad with different approaches needing different types of player.

This is going to be really interesting. If you take the NZ game as the starting point we offloaded the ball whenever it was on, then tightened up and played fairly simple multi phase stuff in the 6N, then kicked and chased from the start of last autumn until the England game, and then ran it as much as possible against Wales and Scotland. Who knows what way we'll play in the World Cup? Hopefully it'll make us very hard to analyse.

[Golf Man]

except of course that's not true - Fitz was available for most of the 6n and was only picked for the last game he has featured I think twice for schmidt ireland and you have him as a guaran teed starter? you're trying too hard to troll btw the centre argument was too far

D'Arcy goes if hens haw breaks hard to see it any other way

Joe might decide that he wants a specialist instead of a utility player. D'Arcy is one of his favourite players, he built the Leinster gameplan in large part around his ability to make metres in contact.

Fitz was in the Irish squad for the 6 Nations but wasn't considered fit enough for that level until the Scotland game (although it was very close against England) - he was sent back to Leinster to get game time, and once he was fit, he was straight into the team.

Again on Fitz simply not true - Fitz played 7 games in 7 weeks for Leinster in December and January - he picked up a niggle and I think had to drop out of eth Wolfhounds game (the fact that he was selected for that suggests that he wasn't going to play at the start of the 6N) Match fitness was not an issue for him - he played 3 full games with leinster during the 6N and travelled with Ireland as 24th man aswell - that's 10 games in a about 13 weeks (remember this is Fitz we are talking about - Zebo was playing well (obviously within the system) - he was particularly impressive v England. He was dropped after a poor performance v Wales with Fitz given the nod. Personally I don't think if Fitz had played the AIs and the 6N as Zebo had that he wopuld have been dropped => I think Schmidt when it boils down to close decisions tends to go with what he knows better - I have no issue at all with this - its naïve to think tht he wouldn't do this.

Just to clarify I'd probably have Fitz in the squad ahead of Zebo (definitely if Jones is there as well) but you are talking about a guy who has 1 start for Ireland in 4 years. He is an excellent player and a coach favourite but there are legitimate concerns over aspects of his game - his best performances are 6 years and many many injuries ago - he is simply not an SOB, Heaslip, Sexton, POC type player who goes straight into the team, much as you might like to think he is

Darcy is another Schmidt favourite and the fact that you referemnce the Leinster gameplan kind of reloving around him (which I'm not sure it did to the extent you are talking about - always looked to me that it was Sexton that the gameplan was built around) - again this is 3 years ago you are talking about. Darcy doesn't make yards in contact anymore - he gives them up. I don't think Darcy should be anywhere near the 45 man squad but I completely understand why he is - the likes of McCloskey, Marshall, Hurley (as well as Cave, Madigan and Henshaw) have shown more than Darcy for some time now. Darcy is in there because in the event of a complete catastrophe Schmidt would prefer someone he knows better 9and importantly someone who won't be overawed by the occasion. We can take max 8 outside backs. We know Darcy won't start. We know that he won't bench. We have to have a degree of versatility within the squad particularly in the outside backs. Not a hope Darcy is in the squad unless Henshaw hgets injured - then he'll probably get in (and may actually start)

[Golf Man]

Good squad. The bit that none of us knows is the game plan or plans that Joe has in his book of magic. I think the game plan will have a significant influence on the squad with different approaches needing different types of player.

This is going to be really interesting. If you take the NZ game as the starting point we offloaded the ball whenever it was on, then tightened up and played fairly simple multi phase stuff in the 6N, then kicked and chased from the start of last autumn until the England game, and then ran it as much as possible against Wales and Scotland. Who knows what way we'll play in the World Cup? Hopefully it'll make us very hard to analyse.

Think you are slightly overstating exactly how much we offloaded v NZ, we had no choice but to run and go for it v Scotland , and the Wales game is unlikley to be used as a template for our gameplan. We've won 2 6Ns in a row playing a conservative kick/chase gameplan, with a real focus on the maul. I'd lik eto think we would add a bit more in attack but I think its likely to be more set moves than anything else. We have France and Italy in our group - this approach has seen us beat both of these teams in the last two seasons - not sure why we would change it?

I don't think we are difficult to analyse, but difficult to play against

My concern leading into it is injuries - there will undoubtedly be some - we obviously have a couple of players whose absence change sthe whole team