When was the last time ( if ever) that Ireland......

[Golf Man]

This whole ideaof coming straight into a national squad wen you haven't even been in the country before doesn't sit well with me.

Who cares if they've never been there! My Da was a Spanish sailor and therefore I should qualify to play for Spain even though I've never been.


At least the residency guys have to commit to rugby here. I think it needs to be tightened up a bit but its not going away - and tbh it shouldn't - people move around all the time,doesn't mean that can't commit to coutries other than their birth countries

No one said birth countries, but I think you have this the wrong way around. I find it reprehensible that the provincial scouts are poking around training grounds looking to offer someone a provincial contract, with an international cap as a carrot.

Is it not as reprehensible to offer that carrot purely because guys ad an Irish background. I don't doubt that there are Irish qualified players now and past who absolutely were Irish and always felt that way (by way of their upbringing or whatever - Kevin Maggs would be a prime example or Kevin Kilbane in soccer)but there are also probably guys who barely knew that they qualified , and then can come straight into the national squad by dint of this - ave they given more than the residency guys, are they more committed to the cause?

I don't think there is a right answer here btw every case is different - you can't blame a young kid moving for rugby especially if there is big money on offer, and its hard to argue the case that a itizen shouldn't qualify to play for that country -> there is an element orace to the bottom though - its happened with football - 12year olds being signed up and families moved etc

[Golf Man]

Nationality: Players can play for a country that they have no allegiance to, no link to and have never been in, because a grandparent was born there - that does not sit well with me

I can see why this wouldn't sit well but if someone is entitled to a passport should they not be entitled to represent the country?

If we were looking at a situation where lads were being flown in ahead of local players that were as good as or better than the ringers I'd be more annoyed about it but I don't think that's the case. I don't think anyone could attribute Ireland's recent rugby success to a clever recruitment policy.

Pretty sure that you are not entitled to a passport upon gaining residency. I have many foreign national friends, and the process for gaining a passport has taken them about 7 years.

AFAIK you cannot apply for citizenship for five years, which Imo should be the rule for playing for another nation.

Citizenship seems like the obvious solution but don't think this could work as the law obviously varies from country to country, and obviously are subject to variations. There is generally easier paths for spouses of citizens as well which won't work from a rugby point of view

Funnily enough andI'm probably in the minority here I have more of an issue at the highest levels with the ualified players with no links to the country rather than the residency qualified guys

[simonokeeffe]

Here is how I see it. Strauss sang along to every word of Amhrán na bhFiann. And every player not Irish by birth sang along to Ireland Call. For me they are Irish.

I don't want this to seem like a Republican manifesto. But I think if someone stands there and belts out our National Anthem while wearing our countries jersey, they are Irish

Boss was singing along to it too

But I dont think Dave Cahill is blaming Healy, Moore and Furlong enough for being injured for this match or Damian Varley for having to retire

With TOD injured and Zebo in the team Stephen Archer has now become the cause celebre

The last player I can think of who wasnt Irish Irish and didnt give that much of a hoot about playing for Ireland was Brian Smith

[CiaranIrl]

Dan Tuohy never gets mentioned in these threads. Same as Mike McCarthy when he was in the squad. I guess having an irishy sounding name gets you out of the firing line, even if you grew up in England. If only Richardt Strauss would change his name to Risteard Ó Strabhas everything would be fine.

[domhnallj]

Here is how I see it. Strauss sang along to every word of Amhrán na bhFiann. And every player not Irish by birth sang along to Ireland Call. For me they are Irish.

I don't want this to seem like a Republican manifesto. But I think if someone stands there and belts out our National Anthem while wearing our countries jersey, they are Irish

Boss was singing along to it too

But I dont think Dave Cahill is blaming Healy, Moore and Furlong enough for being injured for this match or Damian Varley for having to retire

With TOD injured and Zebo in the team Stephen Archer has now become the cause celebre

The last player I can think of who wasnt Irish Irish and didnt give that much of a hoot about playing for Ireland was Brian Smith

Would it be incorrect to mention Davy Tweed at this point in the conversation?

[Golf Man]

Some of you seem to want to be offended - strange

[simonokeeffe]

Dan Tuohy never gets mentioned in these threads. Same as Mike McCarthy when he was in the squad. I guess having an irishy sounding name gets you out of the firing line, even if you grew up in England. If only Richardt Strauss would change his name to Risteard Ó Strabhas everything would be fine.

poor Chris Saverimutto never had that luxury

It is never correct to mention Davy Tweed or the UVF tattoo on his backside

we could put this to bed by saying first choice Ireland 23 has 5 Irish born and bred front rowers + Rory Best

[Broken Wing]

Nationality: Players can play for a country that they have no allegiance to, no link to and have never been in, because a grandparent was born there - that does not sit well with me

I can see why this wouldn't sit well but if someone is entitled to a passport should they not be entitled to represent the country?

If we were looking at a situation where lads were being flown in ahead of local players that were as good as or better than the ringers I'd be more annoyed about it but I don't think that's the case. I don't think anyone could attribute Ireland's recent rugby success to a clever recruitment policy.

Pretty sure that you are not entitled to a passport upon gaining residency. I have many foreign national friends, and the process for gaining a passport has taken them about 7 years.

I was specifically talking about the nationality side of things as a qualifier. I don't know enough about the rules around gaining citizenship via residency to argue their merits or flaws.

[blues_fan]

Can't be based on citizenship as different countrie shave different rules regarding that.

So what?

in our geopolitical situation its a very big what - basing it purely on citizenship would mean than any Scottish, Welsh or English play would be eligible for selection

Again, so what? It's a quirky anomaly of the UK (and Ireland perhaps as a Northerner could play for Ireland too under a citizenship rule) that can be fixed with rules specific to the UK if problems arise. Citizenship is a much better solution to what we have now. In the modern world, merely being born in a country should only be the starting point of being 'kiwi' or 'Irish' or whatever, not the end of the matter.

Anyway, my preferred solution lies in a points system similar to how immigrants are granted entry into countries. If a player wants to play for a country outside their obvious one, they must apply and show a connection to that country. Learning the language, consistent residency, familiarity with customs and culture, ancestry etc etc. Players can marshal a score good enough to play for the national team in a multitude of ways. A player could have hereditary links and decent residency or he could have no hereditary links but he becomes a citizen and a part of the community. Of course it won't be perfect (nothing will) but it will be a much better process for getting actual nationals playing for the national team while also taking into account the trend of modern cosmopolitanism. The current system does neither.

[Oldschool]

What about all the ones that got away.
Dallaglio and Finnegan for example, not to mention all those Aussies with Irish sounding names like Lynagh.
I think we've done very poorly in the 'Foreign Recruitment' stakes and if anything haven't put anything like enough effort into this area compared to the other rugby top eight.

[Dave Cahill]

Again, so what? It's a quirky anomaly of the UK (and Ireland perhaps as a Northerner could play for Ireland too under a citizenship rule) that can be fixed with rules specific to the UK if problems arise. Citizenship is a much better solution to what we have now. In the modern world, merely being born in a country should only be the starting point of being 'kiwi' or 'Irish' or whatever, not the end of the matter.

The original point of the discussion is about tightening the ability of players to play for countries they are not 'from'. If you were to go the citizenship route it would have the exact opposite effect in Irelands case. The two things are mutually exclusive if that were the route you want to go down. Thats the what.

[Peg Leg]

Again, so what? It's a quirky anomaly of the UK (and Ireland perhaps as a Northerner could play for Ireland too under a citizenship rule) that can be fixed with rules specific to the UK if problems arise. Citizenship is a much better solution to what we have now. In the modern world, merely being born in a country should only be the starting point of being 'kiwi' or 'Irish' or whatever, not the end of the matter.

The original point of the discussion is about tightening the ability of players to play for countries they are not 'from'. If you were to go the citizenship route it would have the exact opposite effect in Irelands case. The two things are mutually exclusive if that were the route you want to go down. Thats the what.

Yeah, that's disappointing [peg leg short of the facts- shocker].
Maybe a rugby passport of some sort? I don't know, but it seems we all have different opinions on what the problem is.
It's the residency rule that kills me, although it would be foolish not to use it as long as its in existence. 0 problems with Bent/Watson type scenario though, heritage is heritage.

[olaf the fat]

Again, so what? It's a quirky anomaly of the UK (and Ireland perhaps as a Northerner could play for Ireland too under a citizenship rule) that can be fixed with rules specific to the UK if problems arise. Citizenship is a much better solution to what we have now. In the modern world, merely being born in a country should only be the starting point of being 'kiwi' or 'Irish' or whatever, not the end of the matter.

The original point of the discussion is about tightening the ability of players to play for countries they are not 'from'. If you were to go the citizenship route it would have the exact opposite effect in Irelands case. The two things are mutually exclusive if that were the route you want to go down. Thats the what.

Yeah, that's disappointing [peg leg short of the facts- shocker].
Maybe a rugby passport of some sort? I don't know, but it seems we all have different opinions on what the problem is.
It's the residency rule that kills me, although it would be foolish not to use it as long as its in existence. 0 problems with Bent/Watson type scenario though, heritage is heritage.

I dont think the residency rule is wrong, it works for a player who makes a life in a new country and aligns themselves with that country. The "project player" thing is an abuse of the rules by unions to fill gaps they cant fill, its the downside of a sensible rule.

On the heritage thing, Its not up to others to decide how Irish/english/New Zealand people consider themselves. If you are entitled to, that's enough.
Bent is only guilty of being capped too early, hardly his fault. He is in the mix on merit now.

[simonokeeffe]

weve raised this before but simple solution is raise it to 5 years from 3 years

Brett Gosper has said he wants it changed after world cup, whether its voted through is another story

[Oldschool]

Again, so what? It's a quirky anomaly of the UK (and Ireland perhaps as a Northerner could play for Ireland too under a citizenship rule) that can be fixed with rules specific to the UK if problems arise. Citizenship is a much better solution to what we have now. In the modern world, merely being born in a country should only be the starting point of being 'kiwi' or 'Irish' or whatever, not the end of the matter.

The original point of the discussion is about tightening the ability of players to play for countries they are not 'from'. If you were to go the citizenship route it would have the exact opposite effect in Irelands case. The two things are mutually exclusive if that were the route you want to go down. Thats the what.

Yeah, that's disappointing [peg leg short of the facts- shocker].
Maybe a rugby passport of some sort? I don't know, but it seems we all have different opinions on what the problem is.
It's the residency rule that kills me, although it would be foolish not to use it as long as its in existence. 0 problems with Bent/Watson type scenario though, heritage is heritage.

Residency is the key. We don't want a bunch of failed pro rugby players sponging off our welfare system now do we?.

[munster#1]

I think this issue will become a bit more serious when you have former baby boks captain, cj (motm) stander starting ahead of a whole host of very talented irish born players.

This is a guy who had demonstrated great pride in the SA jersey, and was part of the SA senior training squad just before munster waved a big wad of cash in his face, which was his as long as he agreed to play for Ireland if he is good enough in 3 years.

[blues_fan]

Again, so what? It's a quirky anomaly of the UK (and Ireland perhaps as a Northerner could play for Ireland too under a citizenship rule) that can be fixed with rules specific to the UK if problems arise. Citizenship is a much better solution to what we have now. In the modern world, merely being born in a country should only be the starting point of being 'kiwi' or 'Irish' or whatever, not the end of the matter.

The original point of the discussion is about tightening the ability of players to play for countries they are not 'from'. If you were to go the citizenship route it would have the exact opposite effect in Irelands case. The two things are mutually exclusive if that were the route you want to go down. Thats the what.

Eh? All the players complained of in the original post would be ineligible. For the UK and Ireland you have specific rules to cater for their idiosyncratic situation. You're a citizen of the UK/Ireland, you can only play for those 5 nations, then further rules determine which you are eligible for out of those 5. FIFA/FA does it. We shouldn't overlook a good solution simply because it's harder to implement in the UK and Ireland relative to everywhere else.

[Dave Cahill]

Eh? All the players complained of in the original post would be ineligible. For the UK and Ireland you have specific rules to cater for their idiosyncratic situation. You're a citizen of the UK/Ireland, you can only play for those 5 nations, then further rules determine which you are eligible for out of those 5. FIFA/FA does it. We shouldn't overlook a good solution simply because it's harder to implement in the UK and Ireland relative to everywhere else.

Actually Bent and Boss would still be eligible. A number of the FIFA/FA regulations regarding the relationships between the UKs constituent teams and the relationship between Ireland and Northern Ireland have not been found to be particularly iron clad in Europes courts and the CAS.

But again, my only point was that attempting to close a door by taking the entire door off its hinges is counterproductive - how that effects elsewhere was not pertinent to that point. Personally I have no particular preference whether the residence regulations change or not

[simonokeeffe]

I would rather Ireland beat France with Jared Payne in the side than lose because we had Keith Earls marking Mathieu Bastareaud who is 75lbs heavier than him in a French side that had Spedding, Nakaitaci, Kockot, Le Roux, Antonio, plus 4 or 5 guys born in former French colonies

[munster#1]

I would rather Ireland beat France with Jared Payne in the side than lose because we had Keith Earls marking Mathieu Bastareaud who is 75lbs heavier than him in a French side that had Spedding, Nakaitaci, Kockot, Le Roux, Antonio, plus 4 or 5 guys born in former French colonies

Well each to their own. You will always get people who support a team for success, and others for pride in the meaning behind the jersey.

It is just my opinion, and perhaps I am in the minority, but for me international sport should be played by people who dreamt of wearing the colours of their country, and not the country who offers the best package.

I have had the privilege of representing my country in athletics, and it was massive for me.

The only reason I would compete for another country would be to make a career of it, or if I never made an irish squad.