1st choice Ireland team at World Cup

[Golf Man]

http://www.the42.ie/donnacha-ryan-slamm ... 8-Sep2015/

For Bowe in the back line read Toner in the pack. Under real pressure after top notch warm up performances by Ryan and Henderson, his prowess at the line out being his one redeeming quality. Doesn't carry well and (like Bowe) found wanting in defence his form thus far places him bottom of the pecking order for a start.

A pity for Toner as his improvement over the last 2 years has been noteworthy. Maybe he can play himself in to a bit of form but with two viable and inform alternatives does Joe take that gamble?

Bowe had a shocker the weekend and the decision to leave Trimble ( who had showed decent form) out is beginning to look poorer and poorer.
The last 2 Saturdays have shown up Ireland's reliance on a fit and in form halfback partnership. Sexton' spoor performance v Wales along with Reddan's unintended near full game v England illustrated how important Sexton and Murray 'S form are too Ireland

Both need to be fit, healthy and in form for Ireland to prosper.

Absolutely agree - I think Toner is most under threat tbh despite how bad Bowe has been

Toner has had two starts and hasn't impressed in either game
Henderson has hadtwo starts and has impressed in both
Ryan has 1 start and 2 sub appearances and has impressed in all

I do think Toner will be lucky to keep his starting place - and if he doesn't start then I don't think he is on the bench

While Bowe has been poor ( I ddnthink he was as ad asmade out v Scotland, not good mind) his first half display was as bad as I've ever seen from him
The alternatives haven't really had much of a chance though - Earls started 1 game (v Wales at home), Fitz started 1 (v Scotland) and Zebo has only half a game (as Trimbles replacement v Wales) as a wing. Dave Kearney has completely justified his pace in the squad but the fact that he had an extra back 3 player to play around with (with the sh and backup fb decisions) and didn't pick Trimble is looking like it looked at the time - a really bad call. I n reality he should have picked either Fitz or Earls as the back up 13 (with Cave in the mix there as well) and brought Trimble allowing him game time to get up to speed (not that he looked particularly out of speed)

In short Bowe has huge credit going back years and his opposition haven't demanded selection. Toner has credit but not to the same extent and his opposition have really stood up

[wixfjord]

There are 2/3 positions still up for grabs in the starting 15

In the pack has become the norm around here to suggest that POMis under threat - I wouldn't say he is absolutely nailed on, but there is one guy under serious threat in the pack and that's Toner. He has comfortably been the worst of the 4 second rows in the warm ups and is nailing the unseen work angle at the moment. There may be some issues with Henderson in technical elements (notice the may) but the upside is huge. Toners supporters will state that our maul defence would have been better v Wales if he was there - this kind of supposition isn't the best argument for selection

That is a supposition.
But it was better on Saturday than Wales, so it's a fairly solid supposition.

Toner isn't in form certainly, and both Ryan and Henderson have had good games.

But the argument for Toner is simply that he's too important to the patterns and structure we've been playing for the past two years.

Saying 'the upside is huge' is fine, but it overemphasises the highly viewable stuff that Henderson does (excellent carrying and bullish strength), while removing the importance of the nuts and bolts.

Look at the try we scored on Saturday, look at the maul try we scored against Scotland, look at how solid our scrum was on Saturday and then how much pressure was on both it and the maul against Wales.

I'm not personally sold that Toner will start the big games (he would need to really up the defensive and rucking efforts), but there is a solid argument for him.

If nothing else, we should all have realised by now that for Joe, just because a player looks effective, doesn't mean he sees him as effective.

[WarPoodle]

Bowe, it seems got picked over Trimble on merit of his past endeavours.. He hasn't been at the races since before the last 6 Nations, and he should have played himself out of 1st team contention with that display against England, which was amazingly bad. Earls and Kearney for the starting wings.

Why, why, why Bowe over Trimble? On form, Trimble has played better in the limited time he's had on the pitch than Bowe has.

As it is Kearney looks like our most dangerous back... Who would have thunk it....?

[Oldschool]

http://www.the42.ie/donnacha-ryan-slamm ... 8-Sep2015/

For Bowe in the back line read Toner in the pack. Under real pressure after top notch warm up performances by Ryan and Henderson, his prowess at the line out being his one redeeming quality. Doesn't carry well and (like Bowe) found wanting in defence his form thus far places him bottom of the pecking order for a start.

A pity for Toner as his improvement over the last 2 years has been noteworthy. Maybe he can play himself in to a bit of form but with two viable and inform alternatives does Joe take that gamble?

Bowe had a shocker the weekend and the decision to leave Trimble ( who had showed decent form) out is beginning to look poorer and poorer.
The last 2 Saturdays have shown up Ireland's reliance on a fit and in form halfback partnership. Sexton' spoor performance v Wales along with Reddan's unintended near full game v England illustrated how important Sexton and Murray 'S form are too Ireland

Both need to be fit, healthy and in form for Ireland to prosper.

I think Paul Marshall could fill the gap if we needed to call in a SH.
It's a pity that he didn't get the Boss game time over the last year.

[Oldschool]

There are 2/3 positions still up for grabs in the starting 15

In the pack has become the norm around here to suggest that POMis under threat - I wouldn't say he is absolutely nailed on, but there is one guy under serious threat in the pack and that's Toner. He has comfortably been the worst of the 4 second rows in the warm ups and is nailing the unseen work angle at the moment. There may be some issues with Henderson in technical elements (notice the may) but the upside is huge. Toners supporters will state that our maul defence would have been better v Wales if he was there - this kind of supposition isn't the best argument for selection

That is a supposition.
But it was better on Saturday than Wales, so it's a fairly solid supposition.

Toner isn't in form certainly, and both Ryan and Henderson have had good games.

But the argument for Toner is simply that he's too important to the patterns and structure we've been playing for the past two years.

Saying 'the upside is huge' is fine, but it overemphasises the highly viewable stuff that Henderson does (excellent carrying and bullish strength), while removing the importance of the nuts and bolts.

Look at the try we scored on Saturday, look at the maul try we scored against Scotland, look at how solid our scrum was on Saturday and then how much pressure was on both it and the maul against Wales.

I'm not personally sold that Toner will start the big games (he would need to really up the defensive and rucking efforts), but there is a solid argument for him.

If nothing else, we should all have realised by now that for Joe, just because a player looks effective, doesn't mean he sees him as effective.

If you are going to play POC then you need bulk beside him and Toner provides that in spades.
And don't forget Toner can run a lineout.

[Oldschool]

Bowe, it seems got picked over Trimble on merit of his past endeavours.. He hasn't been at the races since before the last 6 Nations, and he should have played himself out of 1st team contention with that display against England, which was amazingly bad. Earls and Kearney for the starting wings.

Why, why, why Bowe over Trimble? On form, Trimble has played better in the limited time he's had on the pitch than Bowe has.

As it is Kearney looks like our most dangerous back... Who would have thunk it....?

None of our Munster posters anyway.

[WarPoodle]

None of our Munster posters anyway.

Well, I'm Leinster, and if you had of told me that he would have been our most dangerous looking back 3 weeks ago I wouldn't have believed it.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I think rumours of Toner's demise are greatly exaggerated. I noticed two missed tackles and one hospital pass (bizarrely called as good play by Stuart Barnes) but did he do an awful lot else wrong? He needs to make a positive impact instead of just being okay but the reason I ask that particular question is because when comparing him to Bowe, Bowe must have made more than double that number of mistakes and also has strong competition so don't think they're in the same ball park in terms of form.

That said, I don't think he played well. For me, Toner has been outstanding defensively over the last two seasons, very underrated at making offensive tackles and being briliant at the choke tackle, really good at the breakdown (anyone who says otherwise is thinking of a version of Toner from about 2008), good restart work, good in mauls and the set piece in general. If he's doing all those things then it's a no brainer that he starts for me. He's not and we have some really good options so should look at them, but he's not playing like a drain as some appear to be suggesting. The set piece and one brilliant take from one of our own restarts back that up. Hopefully it's just a conditioning thing and he'll stop falling off tackles he should be making.

Thought D Ryan was great when he came off the bench, the covering run he made to clean up a kick ahead was incredible for a second row.

[simonokeeffe]

Even without playing there a whole lot of late Earls is the form right winger (thats in the squad)

[leinster4life13]

What is our form back three at this point, Dave on the right Zebo/Earls on the left and Kearney Sr at FB?

[fourthirtythree]

I think rumours of Toner's demise are greatly exaggerated. I noticed two missed tackles and one hospital pass (bizarrely called as good play by Stuart Barnes) but did he do an awful lot else wrong? He needs to make a positive impact instead of just being okay but the reason I ask that particular question is because when comparing him to Bowe, Bowe must have made more than double that number of mistakes and also has strong competition so don't think they're in the same ball park in terms of form.

That said, I don't think he played well. For me, Toner has been outstanding defensively over the last two seasons, very underrated at making offensive tackles and being briliant at the choke tackle, really good at the breakdown (anyone who says otherwise is thinking of a version of Toner from about 2008), good restart work, good in mauls and the set piece in general. If he's doing all those things then it's a no brainer that he starts for me. He's not and we have some really good options so should look at them, but he's not playing like a drain as some appear to be suggesting. The set piece and one brilliant take from one of our own restarts back that up. Hopefully it's just a conditioning thing and he'll stop falling off tackles he should be making.

Thought D Ryan was great when he came off the bench, the covering run he made to clean up a kick ahead was incredible for a second row.

Yeah, Bowe was sadly dreadful. Tackle stats were made two, missed four which is incredible. Toner missed two. As you said Ryan was excellent when he came on but we pushed England off their own ball, we stopped leaking points to mauls with Toner on the pitch versus the alternatives. Unless the pre-tournament referee guidelines and briefings deprecate the scrum and the maul I simply can't see him not playing. Our maul defence without him is very leaky, and our offensive maul is no great shakes. Too important to our game unless the focus of referees changes.

[simonokeeffe]

What is our form back three at this point, Dave on the right Zebo/Earls on the left and Kearney Sr at FB?

the 2 Kearndashians and then anyones guess

[Golf Man]

I think you are massaging Toners tackles stats a bit there

Of the starting pack he made the least tackles (5) and missed the most (3) - not a good combination whatever way you look at it

I wouldn't underestimate Toners displays in the last two years - he has been good but I do think he contribution has been overestimated in some quarters (possibly that general expectations with him are not hugely high). Is there any reason the likes of Ryan/Henderson can't contribute the way he does - Henderson is a different type of player definitely but Ryan? - hard to see that Toner has any huge advantages over him

Just on the maul - I presume the argument is that v Wales the maul defence and attack wasn't as good - the pack showed 4 changes (Best, Ross, Toner, SOB) - can it all be put on Toner? And as stated above wouldn't have though Ryan is particular would be strong in the maul - Henderson possibly not the stronmgest point of his game - but do you accept that given what ese he brings (especially with Healy out and us short of carrers in the pack?)

[ribs]

Henderson is POC's backup not Toners. Possible that Ryan will take Toner's spot, but only against a light pack.

[Dave Cahill]

The reality of the situation is that the only changes in the front five for the games against Italy and France will be injury related. Healy, Best, Ross, Toner and PO'€ are nailed on.

[simonokeeffe]

I'm starting to doubt POMs ability to (effectively) complete the more intense international matches so to me its better to Bring Henderson on at 6 then move him back there after 50 or 60 mins

[dropkick]

Henderson try was at the far end from me and I only saw the highlights on the telly. I assume you are correct in his carries then, but if he isn't tackling, and he also isn't winning ball, it's not great is it?

I wouldn't pick him out as being the poor player that I saw, but he was one of them that looked underpowered and off the pace. Pretty much all those short on match time also looked not ready to go on the boil. O'Connell, Murray, Sexton were in the same boat. Big game players all of them and leaders too. We are relying on all of those and I expect they will deliver.

Then again I thought Henderson was short on some of the grunt work while I was at the match and barely anyone agrees with me so what do I know?

I would also pay little or no attention to welsh commentary teams in assessing a match!

Tackling is not what he is asked to do. His job to to compete at the breakdown and slow down the opposition. He waits until a player has been tackled and then goes in. Irelands defensive record under Schmidt is good an POM has been part of that. They conceded a linout maul try against Wales while in the previous 2 games Wales and Scotland ran in some easy tries, so the defence was better in the last game.

This reminds me of what Valdano said about Liverpool – the famous 'sh*t on a stick' quote. O'Mahony could walk around Lansdowne Road in a steward's vest and some people would still say he had a good game. He ran across the pitch most of the time against Wales, he made few tackles, he won little ball at the breakdown or anywhere else and he came off after 50 mins. It was a poor performance.

This was a slightly better performance while still being nothing to write home about ... and frankly, the second time in two weeks he has been completely outplayed by his opposite number. Tom Wood p*ssed all over him in pretty much every statistical category – more tackles, fewer misses, more lineouts won, more defenders beaten, more clean breaks, more metres run, better metres-per-carry [source: http://en.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/match/248677.html ]. O'Mahony needs to step up his game in every facet, because he's doing very little at the moment that a half dozen other blindsides in Ireland couldn't do.

POM's doing very little?? He hasn't completed 2 games of pre season yet and done fine in both games.
Whats with your fixation about tackle count?

In the last two 6 nations combined, Ireland conceded 105 points (56 + 49).
Next best is England with 165, Wales 172, France 201


Why compare POM with Tom Wood? They're playing different roles in different teams against different team. Usually the opposition has a high tackle count against Ireland because Ireland are fairly predictable, especially in these warm up games. Remember Luke Charteris against Ireland in the 6 nations.
And POM has been in most 'team of the 6 nations' in the last 2 tournaments.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/s ... 85853.html
http://www.balls.ie/rugby/comparing-leq ... ent/117149

[Golf Man]

I'm starting to doubt POMs ability to (effectively) complete the more intense international matches so to me its better to Bring Henderson on at 6 then move him back there after 50 or 60 mins

Since Schmidt took over POM as played 16 games for Ireand - he has been taken off twice before 60 mins (Wales a couple of weeks ago ad NZ in 2013). His 9 6N games he has played at least 65 minutes and played the full 80 in the last 4 last year. There is possibly a tactical reason to take him off (as opposed to say SOB or Heaslip) ability tobe effective late in the game - on't think there is any real basis for that.

Henderson is POC's backup not Toners. Possible that Ryan will take Toner's spot, but only against a light pack.

On what basis? Henderson and POC played together v Wales - POC is going to be calling the lineout in either case. There is actually a strong argument that Henderson would compliment POC more - Henderson would tae more of the carrying role which Toner can't rally do and allow POC to focus on the grunt - they are all very interchangeable. Note that Ryan has called lineouts before as well ( don't think Henderson has). Do you really think that Ryan wouldn't be able to front up as much as Toner against a big pack??

The reality of the situation is that the only changes in the front five for the games against Italy and France will be injury related. Healy, Best, Ross, Toner and PO'€ are nailed on.

Best Ross and POC are nailed on. Healy would probably start but has so little rugby in the last 15/16 months that just getting him onto the pitch will be an achievement (and McGrath has excelled in his absence). If Toner is already nailed on for Italy and France we are back in EOS and Kidney territory regarding selection

There is an argument that Ryan/POC/Henderson/SOB/Heaslip is our best back 5 - with Henry and POM on the bench

[Golf Man]

POM's doing very little?? He hasn't completed 2 games of pre season yet and done fine in both games.
Whats with your fixation about tackle count?

In the last two 6 nations combined, Ireland conceded 105 points (56 + 49).
Next best is England with 165, Wales 172, France 201


Why compare POM with Tom Wood? They're playing different roles in different teams against different team. Usually the opposition has a high tackle count against Ireland because Ireland are fairly predictable, especially in these warm up games. Remember Luke Charteris against Ireland in the 6 nations.
And POM has been in most 'team of the 6 nations' in the last 2 tournaments.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/s ... 85853.html
http://www.balls.ie/rugby/comparing-leq ... ent/117149

Its become quite the thing at the moment for some Leinster fans to completely diss POM - don't really understand why. Maybe its to deflect from Toner (given that Henderson could theoretically take either spot) but it seems he has ust become a target, without any real basis - ie Toners stats will be cr@p but he is intrinsic to our game plan, POMs stats not stellar and he's doing nothing - theres always some wh'll have this aproach

[CiaranIrl]

Its become quite the thing at the moment for some Leinster fans to completely diss POM - don't really understand why. Maybe its to deflect from Toner (given that Henderson could theoretically take either spot) but it seems he has ust become a target, without any real basis - ie Toners stats will be cr@p but he is intrinsic to our game plan, POMs stats not stellar and he's doing nothing - theres always some wh'll have this aproach

Correct. Toner & POM both had sh!t games and both are under pressure. Some Leinster fans can't accept Toner isn't playing well. All Munster fans can't accept POM isn't playing well.