Will Ireland open up

[darkside lighteside]

I'm not overly fussed about the results in the warm-up games, but I must admit to feeling a bit dismayed at the breakdown, the defence and the handling on display in the last 3 matches. We have been beaten hands-down on the deck 2 weeks running, and the missed tackle and error count has been pretty unnerving. I'm a bit sceptical of the school of thought that says 'ah don't worry we're keeping everything under wraps and it'll be all fine on the day' - well unless we're keeping our rucking, tackling and basic handling 'under wraps' as well as a few strike moves, we're not going to do any damage to anyone at the WC..

[Golf Man]

I agree - the concern is not so much that we are not opening up more that we are making mistakes that we haven't seen over the last two years - stupid missed tackles, lack of urgency a ruck time, basic handlng errors. However I do think that we will sort out the urgency issue, missed tackles I think will be sorted - handling I'm not so sure, thats harder to turn on. I do think that Payne is ooking good though and could be an important fulcrum of attack (and defence) - a real intelligent player. D Kearney has rightly been getting a lot of praise but I think Payne has actually been our best back - he's not flash but there are definite;ly signs that e is being used more in attack. Zebo has been good in this as well

[bronxbull]

We should have a strong forward platform to run successful strike moves and we do have clever footballers in the back line who can pass the ball well.
I think that Payne and Zebo ,coming off the wing, could be our two main distributors outside JS.
It has taken Henshaw a while to get the passing side of his game up to the same level as his running and defence so I can see him being used as a
decoy, a target for kicks ahead or to crash through a gap with Sexton and Kearney x2 in support.
I'm not being harsh on Henshaw as he played a lot at full back originally and was groomed to be BOD's successor at outside centre, only to play a totally
different role at inside centre.
I agree that Payne has adjusted well to his new role of outside centre and is starting to look more comfortable there.

[Golf Man]

We should have a strong forward platform to run successful strike moves and we do have clever footballers in the back line who can pass the ball well.
I think that Payne and Zebo ,coming off the wing, could be our two main distributors outside JS.
It has taken Henshaw a while to get the passing side of his game up to the same level as his running and defence so I can see him being used as a
decoy, a target for kicks ahead or to crash through a gap with Sexton and Kearney x2 in support.
I'm not being harsh on Henshaw as he played a lot at full back originally and was groomed to be BOD's successor at outside centre, only to play a totally
different role at inside centre.
I agree that Payne has adjusted well to his new role of outside centre and is starting to look more comfortable there.

Will Zebo start though? He definitely adds a lot in attackand was noticeably used this way in the warm ups but he has played predominantly as full back. If we are looking to have a bit more to our game, which I think we need, a back3 of Bowe, Kearney x 2 doesn't necessairily give us great options atm witreagrd to opening up things a bit and offering differing threats in attack

[All Blacks nil]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but nonetheless some revealing thoughts throughout the thread.

[Peg Leg]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but nonetheless some revealing thoughts throughout the thread.

How would hindsight have helped us exactly?
Forget for one second that Hendo playing 6 is the panacea and tell me what would have made the difference?
While your at it, will you tell me at which point you think JS should have begun to implement these changes?
Was it his first day in the job, after his first successful 6N, maybe the next one, perhaps the 80th minute of the NZ game in Lansdowne?

[Logorrhea]

Stop entertaining this clown. He has no interest in your opinion.

[All Blacks nil]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but nonetheless some revealing thoughts throughout the thread.

How would hindsight have helped us exactly?
Forget for one second that Hendo playing 6 is the panacea and tell me what would have made the difference?
While your at it, will you tell me at which point you think JS should have begun to implement these changes?
Was it his first day in the job, after his first successful 6N, maybe the next one, perhaps the 80th minute of the NZ game in Lansdowne?

What was wrong from day one with encouraging an offloading game which actually might result in ball carriers receiving the ball in some space? If the likes Of SOB was allowed play heads up, hands up, on your feet rugby, rather than head down, hands down, looking for clearouts you actually might see his likes to their best effect.
What was wrong with encouraging your back three to spread ball when receiving kicks as opposed to charging straight into heavy contact? You could even let your other players know your intent and they would be in a position to still arrive at a reasonably predetermined breakdown area.
Two things that would test/stretch a defence and help create space.

So, after the dirge that Kidney churned up , I DID EXPECT Joe to have the courage of his convictions ( as shown at Leinster) and prove a positive influence on Ireland's play.

As shown n his Leinster days, if the coach has the will the players have the skill. Many of the same players are in his Irish squad.

Don't get me wrong and love when Ireland win and am committed as any other fan. I was also delighted when Trappatoni's Ireland qualified for Euro 2012. Doesn't mean I like the style.

I would love if Joe threw off the shackles and attempted to replicate the style that a Joe Schmidt Leinster used to play.

[Slowcentre]

I wonder did the people calling for this offloading,running rugby style actually watch the game.We scored 2 good tries,one of them even included an offload and we pu the Argies under pressure.

It was the defense that fell apart in that game and no matter how well we attacked we still would have been 17 points down in the first 20 minutes because that game was lost on defense.It seems like some people have got so used to complaining about the attack that they just go to that complaint by default even when it is so completely missing the crux of what went wrong in the game in question.Open your eyes,we attacked well against both France and the Argies,not brilliantly but well enough to suggest that we can continue to progress.It was all about the defense and hopefully we won't see that kind of capitulation again,if we do then we need to start questioning the coaches as to why the problems haven't been rectified.

[dropkick]

I wonder did the people calling for this offloading,running rugby style actually watch the game.We scored 2 good tries,one of them even included an offload and we pu the Argies under pressure.

It was the defense that fell apart in that game and no matter how well we attacked we still would have been 17 points down in the first 20 minutes because that game was lost on defense.It seems like some people have got so used to complaining about the attack that they just go to that complaint by default even when it is so completely missing the crux of what went wrong in the game in question.Open your eyes,we attacked well against both France and the Argies,not brilliantly but well enough to suggest that we can continue to progress.It was all about the defense and hopefully we won't see that kind of capitulation again,if we do then we need to start questioning the coaches as to why the problems haven't been rectified.

If you look at one game you can point to the defence etc but looking at the big picture, there are 4 SH sides in the semi finals. SH teams are going to win their 7th world cup from 8. Attacking rugby is winning out overall. Irelands attritional style comes with a heavy cost which includes injuries and needing longer to recover physically.

[Slowcentre]

Looking at the big picture our attack was pretty good in the world cup,the Italy game being the exception.It wasn't perfect and there's loads of room for improvement but I feel like we're heading in the right direction.That defeat would have happened even if we played BaaBaa's rugby week in week out.When you get blown away and give a good team a 17 point lead then it doesn't matter what your attack is like.

[hugonaut]

I wonder did the people calling for this offloading,running rugby style actually watch the game.We scored 2 good tries,one of them even included an offload and we pu the Argies under pressure.

It was the defense that fell apart in that game and no matter how well we attacked we still would have been 17 points down in the first 20 minutes because that game was lost on defense.It seems like some people have got so used to complaining about the attack that they just go to that complaint by default even when it is so completely missing the crux of what went wrong in the game in question.Open your eyes,we attacked well against both France and the Argies,not brilliantly but well enough to suggest that we can continue to progress.It was all about the defense and hopefully we won't see that kind of capitulation again,if we do then we need to start questioning the coaches as to why the problems haven't been rectified.

If you look at one game you can point to the defence etc but looking at the big picture, there are 4 SH sides in the semi finals. SH teams are going to win their 7th world cup from 8. Attacking rugby is winning out overall. Irelands attritional style comes with a heavy cost which includes injuries and needing longer to recover physically.

I am not at all convinced that our style of rugby had much to do with our injury list for the quarter-final - it has almost become a cliche, but correlation is not causation.

Some things that happen in a game with a shedload of variables are affected by so many factors that they're more or less bad luck. You could point to Paul O'Connell's injury as a logical conclusion of competing at the breakdown [maybe], but what about Peter O'Mahony and Tommy Bowe tearing knee ligaments in consecutive games getting tackled? O'Mahony tried to side-step the tackle, Bowe went straight into it at pace, both got injured. What about Payne breaking his foot – how is that the result of an attritional gameplan? Should he not run? Sexton tearing his adductor – should he not kick?

I don't think that you can contribute many [if any] of the injuries our players suffered to an attritional style of play. I don't think the evidence stands up to inspection.

[Slowcentre]

It's like people were waiting for us to get knocked out and they had a preconceived idea of why we would get knocked out.Now that we've lost they are making the complaints they had prepared instead of actually looking at what happened over the course of the tournament.

I've also seen loads of people downplay our result against France because NZ hammered them.Using that logic you could downplay NZ's win today since they scraped by a team that were beaten by Japan.

[Logorrhea]

It's like people were waiting for us to get knocked out and they had a preconceived idea of why we would get knocked out.Now that we've lost they are making the complaints they had prepared instead of actually looking at what happened over the course of the tournament.

Welcome to the internet my friend. You'll find there is plenty of that within Leinsterfans.

[Oldschool]

I wonder did the people calling for this offloading,running rugby style actually watch the game.We scored 2 good tries,one of them even included an offload and we pu the Argies under pressure.

It was the defense that fell apart in that game and no matter how well we attacked we still would have been 17 points down in the first 20 minutes because that game was lost on defense.It seems like some people have got so used to complaining about the attack that they just go to that complaint by default even when it is so completely missing the crux of what went wrong in the game in question.Open your eyes,we attacked well against both France and the Argies,not brilliantly but well enough to suggest that we can continue to progress.It was all about the defense and hopefully we won't see that kind of capitulation again,if we do then we need to start questioning the coaches as to why the problems haven't been rectified.

If you look at one game you can point to the defence etc but looking at the big picture, there are 4 SH sides in the semi finals. SH teams are going to win their 7th world cup from 8. Attacking rugby is winning out overall. Irelands attritional style comes with a heavy cost which includes injuries and needing longer to recover physically.

I am not at all convinced that our style of rugby had much to do with our injury list for the quarter-final - it has almost become a cliche, but correlation is not causation.

Some things that happen in a game with a shedload of variables are affected by so many factors that they're more or less bad luck. You could point to Paul O'Connell's injury as a logical conclusion of competing at the breakdown [maybe], but what about Peter O'Mahony and Tommy Bowe tearing knee ligaments in consecutive games getting tackled? O'Mahony tried to side-step the tackle, Bowe went straight into it at pace, both got injured. What about Payne breaking his foot – how is that the result of an attritional gameplan? Should he not run? Sexton tearing his adductor – should he not kick?

I don't think that you can contribute many [if any] of the injuries our players suffered to an attritional style of play. I don't think the evidence stands up to inspection.

I agree. It's a load of nonsense this collision stuff. Rugby is an attritional game, no matter what two teams are playing.
It's far more likely genetics are an issue than training. Why do certain players never get injured - Jamie for one.
Try beating NZ and SA without winning the collisions and see how far that gets you.
Their scrums and mauls are every bit as good as the NH and SBW etc aren't exactly midgets either.
In fact the one thing, the Maoris definitely bring to the party is their collision physicality - BOD and the infamous spear tackle anyone!
There might be a difference in the skill sets used in the NH v the SH but that's a choice as much as anything else.
The 6Ns doesn't put a premium on tries and this is one change a lot of posters have made that might change the emphasis a bit.

[All Blacks nil]

BUMP

Unfortunately still a very pertinent question. This Irish side seem so programmed to a particular system that they are seemingly incapable of adjusting their game plan or style of play.

As Gordon Darcy (always insightful with his finger firmly on the pulse of Irish rugby) wrote after the Argentinian game when describing one of their tries

Juan Imhoff’s second try on Sunday had Graham Henry’s influence all over it. The line he ran off Juan Martin Fernandez Lobbe’s break would not be natural to most Irish players. If I was there I wouldn’t have been looking for Lobbe’s offload, but to clean the ruck when he was tackled. That’s the difference unfortunately: Imhoff had no eyes for rucking and Lobbe had no eyes for his winger, but expected someone to be there.

Ireland are still playing heads down hands down rugby, concentrating on clear outs and not attempting or contemplating heads up hands up rugby.
We are playing an attritional style of rugby which is defined by how we fare in the collision.
and have unfortunately being paying the physical penalty for it.
The one time that Ireland had to open up and actually chase points they did so in emphatic style in last season's Six Nations decider. They scored their points whilst also maintaining their defensive integrity.
I for one would prefer Joe to send his team onto the pitch with that mindset.

[All Blacks nil]

Double post

[Peg Leg]

Slept through most of the Wales game last week did you?

[simonokeeffe]

rehashing that Darcy article is flogging a dead horse, plus his point was about coaching at almost all levels in Irish rugby

that said

I think Joe made a pragmatic decision to play a certain way, based on how much access he would have (or not have compared to Leinster job) and the skill levels at the provinces

that way does have a limited shelf life, and skill/style of play at Ulster, Leinster, Connacht has gotten and is getting better and better. Munster's Irish contingent are no mugs either

so I would be very disappointed if this Summer/Autumn we didnt play a more expansive gameplan

the other Joe problem is he expects high standards from everyone, including refs

[All Blacks nil]

rehashing that Darcy article is flogging a dead horse, plus his point was about coaching at almost all levels in Irish rugby

that said

I think Joe made a pragmatic decision to play a certain way, based on how much access he would have (or not have compared to Leinster job) and the skill levels at the provinces

that way does have a limited shelf life, and skill/style of play at Ulster, Leinster, Connacht has gotten and is getting better and better. Munster's Irish contingent are no mugs either

so I would be very disappointed if this Summer/Autumn we didnt play a more expansive gameplan

the other Joe problem is he expects high standards from everyone, including refs

It's good to see you on board Simon although I do feel quoting Darcy is highly relevant and as we see becoming even more so. How many disagree with the point I am making by directly quoting Darcy?

Forgiving his approach because of his lack of access to the players, could be construed as a slight criticism of Joe
That is what international coaches do.

By the way, as you suspected it would be, the weather was exceptional during the RWC, and yes France and Argentina did have VHS.

The irony is that one extra three pointer from Johnny last week and everything would be rosy in the garden and the " trust in Joe" brigade would feel quite vindicated as they marvelled at Ireland's tactical acumen.

I have been very disappointed by Joe's Ireland. Yes, results had been reasonable as we won a series of coin tosses, but of all coaches, I didn't expect Joe to become so conservative both in selection and gameplan.

Joe's Leinster teams of 11 and 12 played the best brand of rugby that any Irish professional side has produced and when it came to replacing Kidney there was no decision to be made. I was delighted by his appointment because my view at the time was that it killed two birds with the one stone!!!!! Welcome MOC.

Only Scotland and Italy scored less tries in last seasons Six Nations (our 4-1 win v Scotland when we had to attack helped us out score them 9-8) with both teams scoring 8 tries to our 9.
We have scored the least tries so far in this season's Six Nations.

You would be disappointed if this summer/Autumn we didn't play a more expansive game. I am disappointed that last winter/Autumn and this winter we haven't played a more expansive game.