Will Ireland open up

[Golf Man]

rehashing that Darcy article is flogging a dead horse, plus his point was about coaching at almost all levels in Irish rugby

that said

I think Joe made a pragmatic decision to play a certain way, based on how much access he would have (or not have compared to Leinster job) and the skill levels at the provinces

that way does have a limited shelf life, and skill/style of play at Ulster, Leinster, Connacht has gotten and is getting better and better. Munster's Irish contingent are no mugs either

so I would be very disappointed if this Summer/Autumn we didnt play a more expansive gameplan

the other Joe problem is he expects high standards from everyone, including refs

I completely agree that he made a pragmatic decision when he took over and it worked in 2014 apart from v England, that said we actually had more variation in our game that year, than we have had since. It seems to me that Schmidt has stuck rigidly to his approach when he came in and it worked in 2014 and he completely stuck with it. I would have thought that he should have been able to see that this limited approach would as you say have a limited shelf life, and would be worked out - he obviously decided to keep it for the WC and it was ultimately found out (allowing for the injuries v Argentina). Keeping the same approach again this 6N (there was a little bit more v Wales, but a complete lack of ability/nous in the 22) is to my mind indefensible, but predicatable - most coaches go down this route, and address the issues too late. Kidney did this to a certain extent (more 2013 than 2012) - I really hope that Schmidt doesn't do the same, because it will only end one way - he is absolutely the best man to lead us out of this, but he needs to start now. The rest of the 6N and the summer tour should be alkl aout introducing some ew players and bedding down a changed gameplan. The summer tour is likely to be a washout imo - lok at our record in summer tours after world cups (Played 10 W 1 (USA) D 1 (Can) L 8 (NZ x 4, SA x 2, Aus, Arg))

Also time with the players is a omplete red herring at this point - I could buy that for the 2014 6 - he has had 2.5 years and 30 games with them. I don't think anybody outside of the fringe would complain if players were being introduced and doing it gradually is the way to do it - he has a couple of blind spots imo and needs to address these. The moaning about referees is very un Schmidt like also and really doesn't bode well

[The Doc]

Also time with the players is a omplete red herring at this point - I could buy that for the 2014 6 - he has had 2.5 years and 30 games with them. I don't think anybody outside of the fringe would complain if players were being introduced and doing it gradually is the way to do it - he has a couple of blind spots imo and needs to address these. The moaning about referees is very un Schmidt like also and really doesn't bode well

I haven't seen much comment about player access comparison between Northern and Southern hemispheres in all of the discussion of the relative performances. But the reality is that NH coaches only ever get their squads together for a couple of weeks around international windows. In the SH they virtually have the national squad in camp for months at a time - which has got to make a difference in terms of developing a playing style.

We bemoan the fact that the Irish team plays nothing like the Leinster team under JS (or the Clermont backline) - but the amount of coaching time is not comparable.

[Golf Man]

Also time with the players is a omplete red herring at this point - I could buy that for the 2014 6 - he has had 2.5 years and 30 games with them. I don't think anybody outside of the fringe would complain if players were being introduced and doing it gradually is the way to do it - he has a couple of blind spots imo and needs to address these. The moaning about referees is very un Schmidt like also and really doesn't bode well

I haven't seen much comment about player access comparison between Northern and Southern hemispheres in all of the discussion of the relative performances. But the reality is that NH coaches only ever get their squads together for a couple of weeks around international windows. In the SH they virtually have the national squad in camp for months at a time - which has got to make a difference in terms of developing a playing style.

We bemoan the fact that the Irish team plays nothing like the Leinster team under JS (or the Clermont backline) - but the amount of coaching time is not comparable.

Not sure about that (either the facts or the principle) The SH definitely have a better calendar - their only clash between club and internationals is in the summer tour and they have their primary competition after super rugby, rather than in the middle of the season.

Super rugby goes general;ly from mid Feb to start August, Rugby championship goes from mid august to start October (6 games in 8 weeks)then a one month break followed by the autyumn tour in November

Schmidt gets the Ireland squad for I think 2 weeks prior to the 6 nations and then has 5 games in 7 weeks - entirely consistent with the RC. Tours in summer and autumn are more or less the same although the autumn ones are generally longer - I don't think there is that much of a difference - some defionitely, but after 2 years that really shouldn't be an issue

BTW I don't think we expected to play like Leinster under Schmidt (the step up in standard at international level and all that) - I don't think anybody expected to be playing the way we are - we play a version of Gatlands gameplan with more kicking (and not as well)

[simonokeeffe]

The playing for pressure and thus penalties also undid us against Wales last year

The other problem is the game plan is totally dependent on Johnny, and those 2 problems are linked eg last Saturday

In his defence, the 6n pays the bills and is played in the Winter essentially which limits things
And we also saw how wrecked wales looked after that 6 day turn around

what may help is even being pragmatic/conservative we're not going to beat South Africa in a 3 test series playing NH winter rugby

[Fireworks]

For me it is quiet simple. Joe is playing to win. To win you must first not lose. I have seen a gradual progression with more being added to the game as time passes. THe issue is that Joe has the guys for such a short time and we have had so many injuries that there is little consistency. I can see the game plan moving towards a more open game with offloading in it but only when Joe feels they have mastered the skills to do it right. I thought I saw some of the guys look to off load in the French game but then pull back when it looked too risky.

You have to play to the strengths of the players available so as the likes of Ringrose break through we could see an quicker change.

I think Joe has raised the standard so that we are more competitive even when weakened by injuries and now he needs to focus on the next step which will bring a GS and a good WC.

[Oldschool]

For me it is quiet simple. Joe is playing to win. To win you must first not lose. I have seen a gradual progression with more being added to the game as time passes. THe issue is that Joe has the guys for such a short time and we have had so many injuries that there is little consistency. I can see the game plan moving towards a more open game with offloading in it but only when Joe feels they have mastered the skills to do it right. I thought I saw some of the guys look to off load in the French game but then pull back when it looked too risky.

You have to play to the strengths of the players available so as the likes of Ringrose break through we could see an quicker change.

I think Joe has raised the standard so that we are more competitive even when weakened by injuries and now he needs to focus on the next step which will bring a GS and a good WC.

Agree with a lot of the above.
Joe is also in transition from a Leinster driven Ireland to a more balanced representitive Ireland.
Ideally for Ireland to open up he needs all the provinces to be playing a similar style.
This would make it much easier to introduce new players.
Munster are out of step on style at the moment but that is changing and it takes time.
Given the injury crisis it becomes very important to effectively have four players covering each position, all of whom try to play within a similar system.

[simonokeeffe]

the 42 article on our attack in Paris is interesting

on the DK "try" does chest count as a knock on? know it does for grounding and head or below waist doesnt count for knock on

[jezzer]

We're not playing the same uber-pragmatic game as we did in the past 18 months. We're definitely retaining the ball more and kicking far less.

BUT, we're still going to ground with the ball and we're still picking the same pragmatic players. The player bit is mainly injury forced, but the point stands.

It's a bit less dull than last year, but the execution is dull and the lack of offloads/pop passes is a bit depressing. Joe was interviewed saying offloads re a funny one because they can be successful or absolutely kill you. Seems he forgot that he won a Heino on an offload-based gameplan.

[Peg Leg]

We're not playing the same uber-pragmatic game as we did in the past 18 months. We're definitely retaining the ball more and kicking far less.

BUT, we're still going to ground with the ball and we're still picking the same pragmatic players. The player bit is mainly injury forced, but the point stands.

It's a bit less dull than last year, but the execution is dull and the lack of offloads/pop passes is a bit depressing. Joe was interviewed saying offloads re a funny one because they can be successful or absolutely kill you. Seems he forgot that he won a Heino on an offload-based gameplan.

And lost 40 yards to France on Saturday to just one of them

[Golf Man]

First off this development of the game plan is a complete red herring - he has been coach for 2 1/2 years and is working with the same core of players for that time -about 40% of whom he previously coached .

The reality is that he decided on a style that would best deliver results and up to this time last year it worked - there were signs a year ago though that the life span of that approach was coming to an end - we actually showed more invention in 2014 than in 2015. This year has obviously been worse with little or no cutting edge

no sane person should be calling for a huge offloading game but for more creative spark in attack and more risk taking. We have been making bad decisions in attack consistently not looking to offload or change the point of the attack etc. Kearney s off load wad ironically a prime example - a stupid call in the position made worse by the execution - focusing on the 40 m lost though kind of misses the point and it's desperate to hear leinster fans talking that way

[neiliog93]

The 6 Nations is a write-off at this stage, may as well try to expand our game.

[Golf Man]

Our fixtures for the rest of the year are

England (A)
Italy (H)
Scotland (H)
SA (A)
SA (A)
SA (A)
NZ (US)
Can (H)
NZ (H)
Australia (H)

The rest of the year obviously looks daunting but it really should be viewed as a huge opportunity - can't imagine we have ever played 6 games v the top 3 in one year (1 1/2 year even). Argentina have obviously reinvented themselves but consistent matches against the best can only be a good thing

I'd love to see Schmidt decide that we have 10 games for the rest of the year, lets use those and all the camps etc surrounding them to redevelop and be in really good shape for 2017 6 Nation onwards. With Lions next year any summer games are going to be essentialy a B team - benefit in that of course but limited

That said I think he will go tries and tested v England, with no major shakeups. If we lose then he will surely change it up a bit. If we win though I think he'll keep the team the same as we will in theory still be in contention for the championship.

My major concern is that he won't change it up at all - bringing McCloskey in is fine but telling him to just bash it up, don't look for offloads, passes before contact etc kind of defeats the purpose.

WE could very very easily have a record this year of Played 12, W 3 D 1 L8 (possibly worse - Scotland could potentially beat us) - if we have that kind of a record then there needs to be an upside - ie that the team is rebuilding and that the style has updated, ad some playershave got huge experience - that kind of record with the current team and gameplan - won't wash

This is a huge test for Schmidt - its easy to forget that he is a very inexperienced coach at this level - this is his 6th year as a head coach - and the first where he is looking like not having success - he has never had to react or deal with a situation like this before - we really have no idea of how he will react

[Logorrhea]

I imagine Ireland will open up when the pack produces sufficient fast ball for them to play with. Its always the case really. Off set piece we will continue to use Joe's signature moves in order to get us started. In poor field position we will kick and play it elsewhere, and when the ball is slow and shite we'll probably kick.

Pretty much how most other teams play the game.

Seems he forgot that he won a Heino on an offload-based gameplan.

I remember BOD talking about what was said at half-time vs Northampton. They agreed to cut out the high-risk plays, hold on to the ball and wait for their opportunity as the offloads were costing more than they offered. Leinster went a little more conservative in holding onto the ball and putting Saints through the phases. The scores came easily enough on the back of good ball produced by the pack.

[johng]

The 6 Nations is a write-off at this stage, may as well try to expand our game.

Unless they have changed things since last time, our ranking position this December will determine our group in the next WC.

Anyone fancy slipping out of the top 8? Like Wales last time.

[simonokeeffe]

The 6 Nations is a write-off at this stage, may as well try to expand our game.

Unless they have changed things since last time, our ranking position this December will determine our group in the next WC.

Anyone fancy slipping out of the top 8? Like Wales last time.

November 2017 now

they changed it after 2 founding unions/3 Tier 1 ended up in the same pool at current world cup

[Golf Man]

I imagine Ireland will open up when the pack produces sufficient fast ball for them to play with. Its always the case really. Off set piece we will continue to use Joe's signature moves in order to get us started. In poor field position we will kick and play it elsewhere, and when the ball is slow and shite we'll probably kick.

Pretty much how most other teams play the game.

Seems he forgot that he won a Heino on an offload-based gameplan.

I remember BOD talking about what was said at half-time vs Northampton. They agreed to cut out the high-risk plays, hold on to the ball and wait for their opportunity as the offloads were costing more than they offered. Leinster went a little more conservative in holding onto the ball and putting Saints through the phases. The scores came easily enough on the back of good ball produced by the pack.

Except when we have had a pack under Schmidt producing fast ball and dominating up front and haven't opened up

[simonokeeffe]

BOD on OTB Friday night criticising Joe for not allowing players to fail with an offload if it was the right call/was definitely on

But also repeated the (Darcy) assertion rugby players in Ireland dont generally run looking for or expecting the offload

[All Blacks nil]

BOD on OTB Friday night criticising Joe for not allowing players to fail with an offload if it was the right call/was definitely on

But also repeated the (Darcy) assertion rugby players in Ireland dont generally run looking for or expecting the offload

Repeated or rehashed???

[simonokeeffe]

BOD on OTB Friday night criticising Joe for not allowing players to fail with an offload if it was the right call/was definitely on

But also repeated the (Darcy) assertion rugby players in Ireland dont generally run looking for or expecting the offload

Repeated or rehashed???

made the same point, but just the once like

[Xanthippe]

The 6 Nations is a write-off at this stage, may as well try to expand our game.

Unless they have changed things since last time, our ranking position this December will determine our group in the next WC.

Anyone fancy slipping out of the top 8? Like Wales last time.

November 2017 now

they changed it after 2 founding unions/3 Tier 1 ended up in the same pool at current world cup

Do you have a link for that Simon - anything I can find still says the draw will be this year to allow ticket sales to commence before (and to avoid clashing with) Olympics tickets for the following year go on sale