Ireland: what next?

[simonokeeffe]

2016 Six Nations is a realistic target, no one is getting the grand slam I feel, but us against Wales in Dublin in first round feels like the title decider but may well come down to points difference again, assuming Johnny can stay fit

Wales are slow starters, will still be missing a few key players
Scotland and Italy have to visit us, England and France both have major rebuilding and soul searching to do. France in particular have a very aged pack and a lot of 29 year old back rows and 32 year old front rowers so how soon does Noves start building for a world cup, big questions at halfback too

Henderson or Ryan comes in for POC?
Heaslip captains for a year or two?
Centres?

Going further Moore and Furlong will take over as tightheads for the summer tour to South Africa 2016, and we have to start developing a replacement for Reddan. Other than that I don't see too many age based changes until after 2017 Six nations (Best, Henry, Bowe, Reddan, Trimble, Payne)

[Ruckedtobits]

What's the most radical alternatives?

Furlong for Ross?
Marmion or Cooney for Reddan?
McGrath ahead of. Healy?
Donnchadh Ryan back in the row?
Henderson to 6 and work on him?
Forgive McCluskey his immaturity and play him at 12
Take the plunge, Henshaw at 13
Say thanks to Tommy B and pick Trims?
Luke & Earls for 11 shirt, with tackling practice againsst Gilroy & "Conway?
Put Van der Flier, Jack O'Donoghue, Ringrose & Cooney?

Joe is fairly conservative and 6Ns is not a RWC prep, it's the engine of Irish Rugby, in value and prestige. However, we must raise our sights aind now plan for our Q/F in Japan - as VC did for Scotland against Aus.

[tate]

If we're serious about the world cup we need a radical overhaul.

Some thoughts off the top of my head: dropping anyone over 29, start handing out more debuts, truly develop alternatives to established players by increasing game time in place of incumbents, accept finishing fourth if it means we give youth a chance, send schmidt to every focking school and club in the country to teach them the importance of passing, ask our beloved media to stop talking on about certain players as if they died when in fact they just got injured. Ok the last one isn't so important but it really is annoying

[LeRouxIsPHat]

More pace, physicality and play making out wide - The number of times that Argentina were caught narrow and we were either too slow to exploit or didn't have anyone to throw the ball wide was ridiculous. Zebo would have been incredibly useful today. So he covers pace and play making, and Trimble would cover physicality in the short term. Can't think of any other big wingers though, we need to find someone soon.

Bed in another defensive leader at 13 and get more physicality into midfield- Sexton, Henshaw and Payne are great physically but there's a big drop off if even one of them is injured. McCloskey looks like he could be a real option very soon. Ringrose does too IMO. People will say he's too small etc but he's a big hitter and reads the situation brilliantly. He's the kind of guy who would have read Imhoff and Cordero's lines a mile off. I'd hope he's around the squad soon and capped by next autumn. Not sure why we were so passive in defence but that has to change, we at least need the option of being more aggressive.

More leaders - We were missing loads today because of injuries and hopefully all bar POC will be back soon but we could still do with a couple more.

There's not a whole lot wrong, just need minor tweaks here and there.

[Twist]

We need bonus points in the 6N. We have to start valuing tries over territory. To those who say "but you might win the GS and lose the competition" I say; score some tries then.

[FLIP]

How about Irish fans and media actually hold bad refereeing to account? Wales get the Warburton red 4 years ago and the media backing for that results in 4 years of every 50:50 going their way. Scotland are having the same media backing today and no doubt they'll see some benefit from it in the future, probably at our expense.

We instead turn on each other and play the blame game, while most international referees treat us like dog mess they've trod in. Beyond the missed O'Brien punch, I'm struggling to think of one refereeing controversy that we've been on the benefacting side of in years, with hosts against us.

We should have some pride and speak up for better standards, because clearly World Rugby are not interested in improving the standard of refereeing for the good of the game.

[Twist]

I think you've a point. Whenever you criticise the ref a fellow Irish fan will inevitably tell you to "face facts" or "get real". But we get f*cked over far too often. There's no harm in criticising others as well as ourselves.


Warburton's red card in 2011 was still the correct call!

[FLIP]

Warburton's red card in 2011 was still the correct call!

Without a doubt. But they still benefitted from the outrage.

You look at the British papers and news websites and they're in outrage about the Scotland game, they're even talking about it on the radio. Not one peep about the controversy in our game because we just put up and shut up.

[All Blacks nil]

How about Irish fans and media actually hold bad refereeing to account? Wales get the Warburton red 4 years ago and the media backing for that results in 4 years of every 50:50 going their way. Scotland are having the same media backing today and no doubt they'll see some benefit from it in the future, probably at our expense.

We instead turn on each other and play the blame game, while most international referees treat us like dog mess they've trod in. Beyond the missed O'Brien punch, I'm struggling to think of one refereeing controversy that we've been on the benefacting side of in years, with hosts against us.

We should have some pride and speak up for better standards, because clearly World Rugby are not interested in improving the standard of refereeing for the good of the game.

Ireland 20 Argentina 43
Wales 8 France 9
Scotland 34 Australia 35

spot the difference yet

[FLIP]

How about Irish fans and media actually hold bad refereeing to account? Wales get the Warburton red 4 years ago and the media backing for that results in 4 years of every 50:50 going their way. Scotland are having the same media backing today and no doubt they'll see some benefit from it in the future, probably at our expense.

We instead turn on each other and play the blame game, while most international referees treat us like dog mess they've trod in. Beyond the missed O'Brien punch, I'm struggling to think of one refereeing controversy that we've been on the benefacting side of in years, with hosts against us.

We should have some pride and speak up for better standards, because clearly World Rugby are not interested in improving the standard of refereeing for the good of the game.

Ireland 20 Argentina 43
Wales 8 France 9
Scotland 34 Australia 35

spot the difference yet

If Farces hadn't of bottled his call Argentina would have had 30 minutes left with 14 men with 3 points the difference, I see the difference already. You are part of the problem.

[simonokeeffe]

More pace, physicality and play making out wide - The number of times that Argentina were caught narrow and we were either too slow to exploit or didn't have anyone to throw the ball wide was ridiculous. Zebo would have been incredibly useful today. So he covers pace and play making, and Trimble would cover physicality in the short term. Can't think of any other big wingers though, we need to find someone soon.

Bed in another defensive leader at 13 and get more physicality into midfield- Sexton, Henshaw and Payne are great physically but there's a big drop off if even one of them is injured. McCloskey looks like he could be a real option very soon. Ringrose does too IMO. People will say he's too small etc but he's a big hitter and reads the situation brilliantly. He's the kind of guy who would have read Imhoff and Cordero's lines a mile off. I'd hope he's around the squad soon and capped by next autumn. Not sure why we were so passive in defence but that has to change, we at least need the option of being more aggressive.

More leaders - We were missing loads today because of injuries and hopefully all bar POC will be back soon but we could still do with a couple more.

There's not a whole lot wrong, just need minor tweaks here and there.

Definitely

Henshaw is still our best 13 and plays there for Connacht (am sure Lam would change that if asked) and will probably play there unless/until Ringrose makes it at 13 for Leinster
Trimble or Luke will probably be left wing come 6 nations

Joe is paid to win 6 nations so we're not going to use 2016 or even 2017 6 nations to build for 2019 RWC, which is why I think Heaslip will slot in as captain, and possibly Murray will take over (80 minute player guaranteed his place)

Am trying to find out if there's A games this season, would be very interesting with likes of Marmion, McCloskey, Ringrose, Stander, Furlong involved

[Flash Gordon]

How about Irish fans and media actually hold bad refereeing to account? Wales get the Warburton red 4 years ago and the media backing for that results in 4 years of every 50:50 going their way. Scotland are having the same media backing today and no doubt they'll see some benefit from it in the future, probably at our expense.

We instead turn on each other and play the blame game, while most international referees treat us like dog mess they've trod in. Beyond the missed O'Brien punch, I'm struggling to think of one refereeing controversy that we've been on the benefacting side of in years, with hosts against us.

We should have some pride and speak up for better standards, because clearly World Rugby are not interested in improving the standard of refereeing for the good of the game.

Ireland 20 Argentina 43
Wales 8 France 9
Scotland 34 Australia 35

spot the difference yet

If Farces hadn't of bottled his call Argentina would have had 30 minutes left with 14 men with 3 points the difference, I see the difference already. You are part of the problem.

That's as maybe but with 15 men on the pitch we were well beaten by a better team. To be honest I'd have feared for us if we'd have got as far as playing the All Blacks.

[fourthirtythree]

Did I miss the Wales - France match? What channel was it on?

Mind you at Wales 8 France 9 it doesn't sound like I missed much.

[enby]

Hopefully Joe and IRFU will learn the painful lessons and implement the necessary changes.

On reflection was it a mistake for Joe to keep playing BOD as first choice 13 in 2014 in the knowledge that he wouldn't be around for WC? He was undoubtedly the best 13 available to Joe at the time and he played a big part in winning that 6N, which in turn gave the team massive self belief but would it have been better to have given more game time to whomever he wanted to groom for the WC? Probably not as Luke and Earls were injured, Payne had not yet qualified and Henshaw was still very raw.

Yesterday, Ian Madigan was required to play 10 in the most important Irish international match since Cardiff 2009. For the entirety of last season he was excluded from that role by his provincial coach in every big game in favour of a journeyman NIQ player and ended up filling in at 12. We mightn't like it as fans of a province but IRFU must allow Joe/Nucifora to lay down the law to ensure the players that Joe wants in his squad get serious game time at the highest level. If that means the centrally directed moving of certain players between provinces then so be it. Young players must be given the opportunity to play regularly and not just as subs on 65 mins.The older players who won't be around in 2019 must not be permitted to block the progress of younger players.

Matt Williams talks a lot of shyte but I found what he had to say about Argentina conducting a root and branch rethink of their playing style to be very interesting. Can IRFU replicate such a move here? My fear is that there are far too many vested interests in Irish rugby who would have to be faced down

[leinster4life13]

Pace, pace, pace, offload, pace, power, power, pace pace, offload, offload, power also, did I mention pace?

[dropkick]

Better passing and handling, keeping the ball alive, attacking space, less bulking up, more aerobic fitness etc.


Problem is once the 6 nations comes around this will all be forgotten. Whenever someone mentioned Irish provinces playing more in a super rugby style, you'd get comments like "basketball rugby" or "you need two teams to play that way".

[All Blacks nil]

Joe had options yesterday. Unfortunately some were not in the RWC squad, some were in their civvies and some were on the bench

15 Rob Kearney - if he was the challenger would he have been picked. The safe option!!! Does he ever look for space.
14 Bowe - injured early yesterday, one desperately poor performance v England in the warmups had everyone calling for his head. similar calls I'm sure for others today. Otherwise had a solid tournament but surely younger guys must now be given their chance
13 Earls - Ireland's best finisher, move to 14 and leave there
12 - Henshaw - A leader in the backline, one I would hope to see moved to 13 as was the original intention.
11 - Kearney - not his fault he was picked. so many other options, for Joe to believe him to be his best option is a poor reflection of his reasoning and assessment of others.
10 Sexton - Madigan's failure yesterday reinforces Jonny's grip on the 10 shirt and is an indictment of Joe's failure to groom a bona fide back up. His treatment of Keatly after the Italian Six Nations game and Jackson since is unforgiveable. Two years on and the situation is more as less as he inherited. Joe backed the wrong horse.
9 - Murray - again his treatment of Marmion over the last 2 years has been questionable and certainly is at odds with his treatment of similarly aged and experienced Leinster players.
8 - Heaslip - Jamie's international place will, for the first time since Leamy's retirement, come under threat. Take the captaincy off him and let him play.
7 Henry - had a decent game but SOB and POM will not be too worried.
6 Murphy - Another poor selection, might be an openside in time. Forget him at 6 or 8. Will be interesting to see Murray's analysis of his breakdown work. should he have been there?
5 - Toner - showed his worth yesterday and throughout the tournament at setpiece.
4 Henderson - Will be the main man come 2019
3 - Ross - Time is up. MOC copped that last season and most on here agreed at the time. White offers more around the field with Moore and Furlong also in the mix
2- Best - Great RWC, still got it and a real leader to boot.
1 - Healy - when we talk about Healy we talk about three things - a- scrummaging, b- ball carrying and c--weightlifting. I haven't seen too much mention of Ireland's first scrum yesterday, an attacking scrum inside the 22. That's right the one we were pushed off our own ball. His ball carrying and retention are suspect, that doesn't leave too much. Jack McGrath and Kilcoyne deserve promotion and let Healy play for his place

Poor selections of Healy over McGrath, Strauss over Cronin (anyone fancy Cronin instead of Strauss with the score at 23-20),Murphy over Ryan at 5 and Hendo at 6, Ryan left to stew on the bench until the game was lost, D Kearney over Zebo and everyone else. So poor selection and poor use of substitutions. A poor day at the office for Joe in the biggest game of his international career.

In my book RK, Healy and DK should be dropped. Let them impress playing for Leinster and let them win their places back. Madigan should not be considered as an outhalf. Pick a backup 10 (or two) and play them there. Madigan was great behind a rampant pack v France. Yesterday was more indictitive of where he is at as an outhalf. Certainly if a hooker threw as badly as he takes kickoffs, that hooker would not be playing for a professional team. A weakness he either refuses or is unable to address. Has Richie Murphy any influence on him?
Father time will call the clock on a few others with an injured Bowe and Ross the obvious players. both positions have plenty of depth. Hopefully all options are considered.

I've harped on about this all tournament and throughout the prelims. Ireland showed no ambition with the ball. Their game is reliant on winning a series of coin tosses i.e boxkicks, in the air. Attritionial rugby that by its very nature results in injuries as both Wales and Ireland (the chief exponents - remember Wales had to make over 230 tackles v Ireland in the prelims) will testify.

Their lack of ambition was illustrated by the last play of yesterday's first half when after winning a lineout around their own 10m line could not get the ball off the park quickly enough.

Easy to forget that Ireland had more possession and slightly more territory than Argentina. Maybe Joe needs a season or two in the Southern hemisphere to refresh his ideas.

Offloading might even be allowed, Luke's try yesterday started from a Murray offload. Now if Murray had done what he was supposed to do he would have taken the tackle and presented a target for his forwards.

[leinster4life13]

Better passing and handling, keeping the ball alive, attacking space, less bulking up, more aerobic fitness etc.


Problem is once the 6 nations comes around this will all be forgotten. Whenever someone mentioned Irish provinces playing more in a super rugby style, you'd get comments like "basketball rugby" or "you need two teams to play that way".

If Jordi Murphy wants to play international rugby(not picking on Treviso players in an Italian strip), he needs to bulk up. Same with POM. If we are looking forward, our only realistic options at 6 are Hendo and SOB, everyone else is underpowered and undersized and leads to players double jobbing to cover. Pick a big 8 and a big six, let them suck in defenders and open space out wide, rugby basics. Same with Heaslip, he's not liable to lose any pace as he doesnt have much, but it would add to his carrying, which has been barely adequate.
I agree with everything else, handling passing, offloading etc,.

[irish_munster]

Pace, pace, pace, offload, pace, power, power, pace pace, offload, offload, power also, did I mention pace?

Problem is we had pace a plenty available ,either it wasn't used or wasn't selected .imo Ireland's best wings are earls Bowe and zebo .fitz has pace but I always prefer him at centre but Schmidt chose to play Keith earls out of position there .leaving zebo.out of the team yesterday was a mistake imo ,his defense has improved ,he has pace is good under a high ball and has a great boot too .Dave k did ok this tournament but I wouldn't have had him in the team ahead of zebo who would have offered more against Argentina

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I find the talk across a couple of threads about some kind of root and branch rethink of philosophy to be ridiculous. I was really hoping it wouldn't start up after yesterday.

Who are we so far behind? All the big SH teams? Like Australia and South Africa who we beat a year ago when we had a shocking injury list? Like NZ who we pushed to the last play of the game when they had been in unbelievable form all year and we were one dodgy penalty call away from being the only team to beat them? Did the two 6N win in a row mean nothing because we didn't perform in a World Cup quarter final?

Yesterday happened because...

- we were very poor defensively out wide. Simply throw Payne in at 13 and a lot of those issues disappear.

- We lacked pace. Throw Zebo in and he helps with that and also helps to move the ball outside the narrow Argentinian defence. Payne's distribution would also have helped with that.

- We lost the collisions. We dominated France physically last week, particularly in the second half. We lost several players during the week and had a shorter turnaround than Argentina who haven't had a tough game since NZ. They were fresh and raring to go, we looked weary. Hardly a surprise when we were missing so many important players.


Essentially I think it all comes to down to power in the pack. If we get more ball carriers then we won't be as reliant on the boot to go forward and will create more space for the midfield. More power in defence like we've seen from Henderson over the last few weeks would make us less reliant on someone like Payne out wide too. Moore/Furlong replacing Ross and an in form Healy might even be enough there, think people are going way OTT. You need to be able to go forward before you can go wide and that will never change.