Who's backup to Sexton

[WarPoodle]

Ok, so Madigan got his hair cut, and similar to D'Arcy and his beard, that seemed to be where all his power came from. He went from fantastic against France, to bad against Argentina... Or did he? We were beating the French up last week, so he had all the extra time and space he needed to make the right decision. When the reverse happened he caved.. So maybe it wasn't his fault, and it was a combination of terrible things all happening together. But would it have happened that way with Sexton on the pitch..?

So where does that leave us? Who is back up to Sexton?

(On a side note - Earls is a winger, not a centre. We missed Payne's solidity big time. Kearney needs competition. McGrath should start more games. We don't have as much strength in depth as we thought we had in the back row.)

[simonokeeffe]

matchday still going to be Madigan as he also covers 12 and 15 and is a better goalkicker than Jackson

probably Jackson to start though were Johnny to fall down a well come spring

[munster#1]

I think if sexton were not to start then it would have to Jackson. Madigan is far too inconsistent, and very prone to brain farts.

Unfortunately in Ireland we have a big gap between our starting half backs and the backups.

If madigan is to stay at leinster, then his career will probably stall as an out half. He will be playing second fiddle to sexton for the next few years.

A half back needs to be playing week in week out to stay sharp, not just playing the odd pro 12 game against much weaker opposition.

[simonokeeffe]

I think if sexton were not to start then it would have to Jackson. Madigan is far too inconsistent, and very prone to brain farts.

Unfortunately in Ireland we have a big gap between our starting half backs and the backups.

If madigan is to stay at leinster, then his career will probably stall as an out half. He will be playing second fiddle to sexton for the next few years.

A half back needs to be playing week in week out to stay sharp, not just playing the odd pro 12 game against much weaker opposition.

he'll be playing, albeit at 12

[Flash Gordon]

matchday still going to be Madigan as he also covers 12 and 15 and is a better goalkicker than Jackson

probably Jackson to start though were Johnny to fall down a well come spring

You can't start a guy with his kicking stats and defensive inability in my opinion. You think about the teams that we play in the 6 Nations, they're going to run down that channel all day and he'd be lucky to get to half time. Similarly, in tight 6 Nations games that are decided by 3-6 points Jackson's kicking is completely substandard.

[Dave Cahill]

matchday still going to be Madigan as he also covers 12 and 15 and is a better goalkicker than Jackson

probably Jackson to start though were Johnny to fall down a well come spring

You can't start a guy with his kicking stats and defensive inability in my opinion. You think about the teams that we play in the 6 Nations, they're going to run down that channel all day and he'd be lucky to get to half time. Similarly, in tight 6 Nations games that are decided by 3-6 points Jackson's kicking is completely substandard.

So was Madigans, when it counted.

I'd hardly call a backup kicker with a 75% success rate substandard though

[WarPoodle]

So was Madigans, when it counted.

I'd hardly call a backup kicker with a 75% success rate substandard though

But a he's not just a back-up kicker... he's a back-up number 10. And that goes beyond ball kicking and into managing the entire game...

[simonokeeffe]

matchday still going to be Madigan as he also covers 12 and 15 and is a better goalkicker than Jackson

probably Jackson to start though were Johnny to fall down a well come spring

You can't start a guy with his kicking stats and defensive inability in my opinion. You think about the teams that we play in the 6 Nations, they're going to run down that channel all day and he'd be lucky to get to half time. Similarly, in tight 6 Nations games that are decided by 3-6 points Jackson's kicking is completely substandard.

well the way Pienaar has kicked last while hopefully thatll mean Jackson takes them all from now on

[Dave Cahill]

So was Madigans, when it counted.

I'd hardly call a backup kicker with a 75% success rate substandard though

But a he's not just a back-up kicker... he's a back-up number 10. And that goes beyond ball kicking and into managing the entire game...

I mean for Ulster, and I'm purely talking about his goalkicking, he's Ulsters back up kicker and kicks just above 3 out of 4

[WarPoodle]

I mean for Ulster, and I'm purely talking about his goalkicking, he's Ulsters back up kicker and kicks just above 3 out of 4

Valid

[All Blacks nil]

Posted elsewhere, probably more relevant here.

Biggest problem in the development of a back up 10 is that Joe has been very reluctant to replace Sexton in any meaningful game.

Sexton for Ireland under Joe before the prelim games and The RWC had played as follows
BEAR WITH ME

2013 Autumn

40 mins v Australia (injured)
75 mins v NZ

2014 Six Nations

72 mins v Scotland
74 mins v Wales
80 mins v England
63 mins v Italy - a one sided affair in BOD's final home appearance.
68 mins v France

2014 Summer

64 mins v Argentina
64 mins v Argentina

2014 Autumn

73 mins v South Africa - game in safe keeping
77 mins v Australia

2015 Six Nations

Unavailable v Italy
70 mins v France - was off for a period in the first half but returned to complete the game
55 mins v England - injured
74 mins v Wales
70 mins v Scotland

By my calculation apart from injury enforced substitution the BACK UP outhalf has been given a total of 110 minutes play in two seasons.
The three injury replacements allowed 40 minutes, 25 minutes and 10 minutes. Throw in the game v Italy and you have a grand total of 265 minutes

Of which

Madigan played 181 minutes in 12 games
Jackson played 31 minutes in 3 games and this stat alone needs highlighting.
Keatly played 65 minutes in 1 game.

The incredible thing is that when he got the chance to start Madigan in a meaningful game ( 6Nations v Italy) he didn't. What did that say to Madigan?
You are my back up but you are not good enough to start.

In that period Ireland also played autmn internationals against Tier 2 nations, Samoa and Georgia. Jackson played all 80 mins v Samoa and Madigan played 80 mins v Georgia.

Eight months later.............

Joe has completely mishandled the 10 shirt in his 2 years.
I'll guess he will try and ensure he will have 2 TRIED And TRUSTED OUTHALVES in place for RWC2019. Two similar scrumhalves might be prudent as well, with Reddan soon to retire.

[Oldschoolsocks]

Posted elsewhere, probably more relevant here.

Biggest problem in the development of a back up 10 is that Joe has been very reluctant to replace Sexton in any meaningful game.

Sexton for Ireland under Joe before the prelim games and The RWC had played as follows
BEAR WITH ME

2013 Autumn

40 mins v Australia (injured)
75 mins v NZ

2014 Six Nations

72 mins v Scotland
74 mins v Wales
80 mins v England
63 mins v Italy - a one sided affair in BOD's final home appearance.
68 mins v France

2014 Summer

64 mins v Argentina
64 mins v Argentina

2014 Autumn

73 mins v South Africa - game in safe keeping
77 mins v Australia

2015 Six Nations

Unavailable v Italy
70 mins v France - was off for a period in the first half but returned to complete the game
55 mins v England - injured
74 mins v Wales
70 mins v Scotland

By my calculation apart from injury enforced substitution the BACK UP outhalf has been given a total of 110 minutes play in two seasons.
The three injury replacements allowed 40 minutes, 25 minutes and 10 minutes. Throw in the game v Italy and you have a grand total of 265 minutes

Of which

Madigan played 181 minutes in 12 games
Jackson played 31 minutes in 3 games and this stat alone needs highlighting.
Keatly played 65 minutes in 1 game.

The incredible thing is that when he got the chance to start Madigan in a meaningful game ( 6Nations v Italy) he didn't. What did that say to Madigan?
You are my back up but you are not good enough to start.

Eight months later.............

Joe has completely mishandled the 10 shirt in his 2 years.
I'll guess he will ensure he will have 2 TRIED And TRUSTED OUTHALVES in RWC2019. Two similar scrumhalves might be prudent as well, with Reddan soon to retire.

no real issue with this post, just wondering if you have a source for this: What did that say to Madigan?
You are my back up but you are not good enough to start.
or if this is what you assume was understood by Madigan when Joe Picked Paddy Jackson for that game?

I mean if he'd started Madigan for that game, it would be equally valid to say "he's never even given Paddy Jackson a chance.

Personally I think we actually have on top class number 10 in Johnny Sexton, and the other three contenders Keatly, Madigan and Jackson are all about at the same level, so it's pretty easy to pick holes if you're looking for them. We could argue all day about who was in form, who played the best style, but I find the speculation about what management may or may not have said to individual players, or how individuals were instructed to play a bit strange to be honest.

[All Blacks nil]

Posted elsewhere, probably more relevant here.

Biggest problem in the development of a back up 10 is that Joe has been very reluctant to replace Sexton in any meaningful game.

Sexton for Ireland under Joe before the prelim games and The RWC had played as follows
BEAR WITH ME

2013 Autumn

40 mins v Australia (injured)
75 mins v NZ

2014 Six Nations

72 mins v Scotland
74 mins v Wales
80 mins v England
63 mins v Italy - a one sided affair in BOD's final home appearance.
68 mins v France

2014 Summer

64 mins v Argentina
64 mins v Argentina

2014 Autumn

73 mins v South Africa - game in safe keeping
77 mins v Australia

2015 Six Nations

Unavailable v Italy
70 mins v France - was off for a period in the first half but returned to complete the game
55 mins v England - injured
74 mins v Wales
70 mins v Scotland

By my calculation apart from injury enforced substitution the BACK UP outhalf has been given a total of 110 minutes play in two seasons.
The three injury replacements allowed 40 minutes, 25 minutes and 10 minutes. Throw in the game v Italy and you have a grand total of 265 minutes

Of which

Madigan played 181 minutes in 12 games
Jackson played 31 minutes in 3 games and this stat alone needs highlighting.
Keatly played 65 minutes in 1 game.

The incredible thing is that when he got the chance to start Madigan in a meaningful game ( 6Nations v Italy) he didn't. What did that say to Madigan?
You are my back up but you are not good enough to start.

Eight months later.............

Joe has completely mishandled the 10 shirt in his 2 years.
I'll guess he will ensure he will have 2 TRIED And TRUSTED OUTHALVES in RWC2019. Two similar scrumhalves might be prudent as well, with Reddan soon to retire.

no real issue with this post, just wondering if you have a source for this: What did that say to Madigan?
You are my back up but you are not good enough to start.
or if this is what you assume was understood by Madigan when Joe Picked Paddy Jackson for that game?

I mean if he'd started Madigan for that game, it would be equally valid to say "he's never even given Paddy Jackson a chance.

Personally I think we actually have on top class number 10 in Johnny Sexton, and the other three contenders Keatly, Madigan and Jackson are all about at the same level, so it's pretty easy to pick holes if you're looking for them. We could argue all day about who was in form, who played the best style, but I find the speculation about what management may or may not have said to individual players, or how individuals were instructed to play a bit strange to be honest.

He started Keatly not Jackson, but thanks for illustrating the point even more.

I am not making an argument for any particular player but am saying that joe has mismanaged the "back up 10" shirt and after 2 years did not have a back up 10.

What did that say to Madigan is slightly different to What did Joe say to Madigan. at no point did I indicate that this was a quote by Joe rather that it showed zero confidence in Madigan to start a game at outhalf.

[Oldschoolsocks]

Posted elsewhere, probably more relevant here.

Biggest problem in the development of a back up 10 is that Joe has been very reluctant to replace Sexton in any meaningful game.

Sexton for Ireland under Joe before the prelim games and The RWC had played as follows
BEAR WITH ME

2013 Autumn

40 mins v Australia (injured)
75 mins v NZ

2014 Six Nations

72 mins v Scotland
74 mins v Wales
80 mins v England
63 mins v Italy - a one sided affair in BOD's final home appearance.
68 mins v France

2014 Summer

64 mins v Argentina
64 mins v Argentina

2014 Autumn

73 mins v South Africa - game in safe keeping
77 mins v Australia

2015 Six Nations

Unavailable v Italy
70 mins v France - was off for a period in the first half but returned to complete the game
55 mins v England - injured
74 mins v Wales
70 mins v Scotland

By my calculation apart from injury enforced substitution the BACK UP outhalf has been given a total of 110 minutes play in two seasons.
The three injury replacements allowed 40 minutes, 25 minutes and 10 minutes. Throw in the game v Italy and you have a grand total of 265 minutes

Of which

Madigan played 181 minutes in 12 games
Jackson played 31 minutes in 3 games and this stat alone needs highlighting.
Keatly played 65 minutes in 1 game.

The incredible thing is that when he got the chance to start Madigan in a meaningful game ( 6Nations v Italy) he didn't. What did that say to Madigan?
You are my back up but you are not good enough to start.

Eight months later.............

Joe has completely mishandled the 10 shirt in his 2 years.
I'll guess he will ensure he will have 2 TRIED And TRUSTED OUTHALVES in RWC2019. Two similar scrumhalves might be prudent as well, with Reddan soon to retire.

no real issue with this post, just wondering if you have a source for this: What did that say to Madigan?
You are my back up but you are not good enough to start.
or if this is what you assume was understood by Madigan when Joe Picked Paddy Jackson for that game?

I mean if he'd started Madigan for that game, it would be equally valid to say "he's never even given Paddy Jackson a chance.

Personally I think we actually have on top class number 10 in Johnny Sexton, and the other three contenders Keatly, Madigan and Jackson are all about at the same level, so it's pretty easy to pick holes if you're looking for them. We could argue all day about who was in form, who played the best style, but I find the speculation about what management may or may not have said to individual players, or how individuals were instructed to play a bit strange to be honest.

He started Keatly not Jackson, but thanks for illustrating the point even more.

Thanks for the correction. , have you had a chance to look at my question?

[All Blacks nil]

I am not making an argument for any particular player but am saying that Joe has mismanaged the "back up 10" shirt and after 2 years did not have a back up 10.

What did that say to Madigan is slightly different to what did Joe say to Madigan. At no point did I indicate or claim that this was a quote by Joe rather that it showed zero confidence in Madigan to start a game at outhalf.

He gave PJ 33 mins in 3 games, IK 65 mins in 1 game and when he got one chance to start Madigan he overlooked him.

[Oldschoolsocks]

I am not making an argument for any particular player but am saying that Joe has mismanaged the "back up 10" shirt and after 2 years did not have a back up 10.

What did that say to Madigan is slightly different to what did Joe say to Madigan. At no point did I indicate or claim that this was a quote by Joe rather that it showed zero confidence in Madigan to start a game at outhalf.

He gave PJ 33 mins in 3 games, IK 65 mins in 1 game and when he got one chance to start Madigan he overlooked him.

Fair enough, I take your point.

Everyone is entitled to speculate. Apologies if I read more into it that you intended.

[Oldschoolsocks]

I am not making an argument for any particular player but am saying that Joe has mismanaged the "back up 10" shirt and after 2 years did not have a back up 10.

What did that say to Madigan is slightly different to what did Joe say to Madigan. At no point did I indicate or claim that this was a quote by Joe rather that it showed zero confidence in Madigan to start a game at outhalf.

He gave PJ 33 mins in 3 games, IK 65 mins in 1 game and when he got one chance to start Madigan he overlooked him.

Fair enough, I take your point.

Everyone is entitled to speculate. Apologies if I read more into it that you intended.

On another note, I would not be at all surprised if Sexton retires shortly and this thread unfortunately becomes redundant. To me he looked out of it when walking off from the French match.

[WarPoodle]

On another note, I would not be at all surprised if Sexton retires shortly and this thread unfortunately becomes redundant. To me he looked out of it when walking off from the French match.

[simonokeeffe]

On another note, I would not be at all surprised if Sexton retires shortly and this thread unfortunately becomes redundant. To me he looked out of it when walking off from the French match.

not just for gallows humour but at least then Madigan would get a run at 10

[Oldschool]

Sexton was flogged when he went to Racing.
Then the concussion business started.
God only knows what state he's in.
He needs to be given the time to make a full recovery, no matter how long it takes.
And from the little I know, cumulative concussions require cumulative recovery time.
I'm thinking New Year at the earliest.

In terms of new kids on the block (futurewise), Marsh, in Leinster, is getting a decent shot at it but it's too early to say.
Jackson is still very young in Ulster but I think playing with Pienaar is counter productive because it takes the decision making pressure off him too much.
Connacht's young gun Jack Carty may be about to be gazzumped by McGinty - Not good.
Munster - AB1, GM any ideas of who your next generation OH is likely to be. If JJ makes a go of it would he be brought back or is Anthony going to remain unimpressed indefinitely.