Oldschool wrote:
Munster - AB1, GM any ideas of who your next generation OH is likely to be. If JJ makes a go of it would he be brought back or is Anthony going to remain unimpressed indefinitely.
I'd say its the other way around. JJ is unimpressed by Axel. I'd rate him above Madigan and Jackson. Madigan has the skills but can takes the wrong options. Jackson has a lovely pass and can get a backline moving but can't kick. Hopefully for Ireland, JJ becomes a better players in Northampton.
I was very impressed with Joey Carbery in the JWC. He looks to be fairly talented! Not forgetting Ross Byrne either. He had a nighmare debut last week but is a talent. Looking ahead, down in Munster Bill Johnston is highly rated so might be another one to watch. So there are plenty of young 10's around. A big thing for them is to play regularly and keep improving. For Irelands sake you would hope for a few international standard 10s to emerge,
Forgive me for going off topic, but I really think number 9 is a much more problem position. Looking at Aaron smith or will genia. They pace they bring to the ball is down to the decision being made before they arrive at the ruck. They assess the offensive line and know where the ball is going before they lay a hand on it. Contrast this with NH scrummies who dig the ball out, pull players into position and pause before passing out or box kicking. We desperately need to add this awareness to our arsenal as quick ruck ball rapidly becomes static with this rigmarole.
Oldschool wrote:
Munster - AB1, GM any ideas of who your next generation OH is likely to be. If JJ makes a go of it would he be brought back or is Anthony going to remain unimpressed indefinitely.
I'd say its the other way around. JJ is unimpressed by Axel. I'd rate him above Madigan and Jackson. Madigan has the skills but can takes the wrong options. Jackson has a lovely pass and can get a backline moving but can't kick. Hopefully for Ireland, JJ becomes a better players in Northampton.
I was very impressed with Joey Carbery in the JWC. He looks to be fairly talented! Not forgetting Ross Byrne either. He had a nighmare debut last week but is a talent. Looking ahead, down in Munster Bill Johnston is highly rated so might be another one to watch. So there are plenty of young 10's around. A big thing for them is to play regularly and keep improving. For Irelands sake you would hope for a few international standard 10s to emerge,
JJ was an unused sub for Northampton at the weekend
Retired from babbling. Can be found on twittter @okeeffesimon
simonokeeffe wrote:matchday still going to be Madigan as he also covers 12 and 15 and is a better goalkicker than Jackson
probably Jackson to start though were Johnny to fall down a well come spring
You can't start a guy with his kicking stats and defensive inability in my opinion. You think about the teams that we play in the 6 Nations, they're going to run down that channel all day and he'd be lucky to get to half time. Similarly, in tight 6 Nations games that are decided by 3-6 points Jackson's kicking is completely substandard.
So was Madigans, when it counted.
I'd hardly call a backup kicker with a 75% success rate substandard though
You can't assess a player's ability on one game and to be honest I think his performance was pretty ok, there were certainly players who could be more harshly judged (the Kearney brothers, Earls, Jordi Murphy) and you certainly can't do a statistical analysis on a kicker based upon one game. The reality is that kicking is one area of Madigan's game that is not under question. For me, we have no clear successor or world class back up but Jackson's kicking isn't even close to last year's Pro-12 golden boot winner, he is not physical enough in the tackle and he stands too deep.
Any opposition coach worth their salt would attack the 10 channel all day with him there.
On kicking, Jackson is 75% in a good year, Madigan is 85-90 which is international class. But in a game where margins at the highest level are tight that will mean the difference between winning and losing many a game.
Joe hasn't picked Jackson consistently and there's a reason for that.
You can't assess a player's ability on one game and to be honest I think his performance was pretty ok, there were certainly players who could be more harshly judged (the Kearney brothers, Earls, Jordi Murphy) and you certainly can't do a statistical analysis on a kicker based upon one game. The reality is that kicking is one area of Madigan's game that is not under question. For me, we have no clear successor or world class back up but Jackson's kicking isn't even close to last year's Pro-12 golden boot winner, he is not physical enough in the tackle and he stands too deep.
Any opposition coach worth their salt would attack the 10 channel all day with him there.
On kicking, Jackson is 75% in a good year, Madigan is 85-90 which is international class. But in a game where margins at the highest level are tight that will mean the difference between winning and losing many a game.
Joe hasn't picked Jackson consistently and there's a reason for that.
Strange analysis of Jackson imo - 1 targeting the 10 isn't exactly rocket science pretty mch evbery team does it to every 10. Jackson really hasn't been shown up in defence.
Also he is the best passer of the three
Standing deep - not sure he does, but its easy to address if he is - that's a tactic not an ingrained thing - I'd back him all day to make passes under pressure
Kicking - the Achilles heel and arguably a good enough reason not to select him unfortunately such are the margins
I'm always puzzled by the number of posts on forums which take it as self evident that you can only get better with game time. A coach will see players day in, day out. Lets say he's looking at a scrum half that can't pass out of a ruck with any pace ever. Is he supposed to say to himself, "Oh well, it's not his fault. He'll only learn how to do that if I start him in major competitive games." There are a million things that you can learn from training that mean you're not ready to start - things you can get better at with practice. Connor Murray talks about this a lot. Practicing exact box kicks repeatedly for example.
I'm reminded of a chapter in Jackman's autobiography where in one paragraph, he moans about never getting selected for Ireland. A few pages later, he talks about seeing Flannery spending hours on his own every week throwing the ball at a goalpost again and again and again. He seems to find the whole thing ridiculous and sort of insane. He quite obviously just didn't see the link. He too seemed to think you can only get better with game time.
People on this thread have taken it to a new level again: Not only would Jackson & Keatley have only gotten better with gametime, but they somehow could only get better with international game time. That makes even less sense. The coaches watch every game they play in, and they get detailed reports from their provinces. They even go visit them at their training sessions. There are fundamental skills those players needed to improve - pressure kicking, decision making, set plays, kicking out of hand, garryowens etc. Those need to be at the required level before they get picked.
Contrary to popular belief, there are lots of ways to get better at rugby. One is game time. Another one is practice.
“As you all know first prize is a Cadillac El Dorado. Anyone wanna see second prize? Second prize is a set of steak knives. Third prize is you're fired.”
Agree practice makes perfect or indeed "practice makes permanent".
Madigan should start at the start and learn how and then practice kickoffs.
As I said in another thread if a hooker threw a ball as badly as Madigan kicks off, that hooker would not have a professional contract.
I'm not sure how someone could say that Mads is a safer option now because of his kicking given that he attempted a 20 yard cross field kick instead of a pass the other day.
CiaranIrl wrote:I'm always puzzled by the number of posts on forums which take it as self evident that you can only get better with game time. A coach will see players day in, day out. Lets say he's looking at a scrum half that can't pass out of a ruck with any pace ever. Is he supposed to say to himself, "Oh well, it's not his fault. He'll only learn how to do that if I start him in major competitive games." There are a million things that you can learn from training that mean you're not ready to start - things you can get better at with practice. Connor Murray talks about this a lot. Practicing exact box kicks repeatedly for example.
I'm reminded of a chapter in Jackman's autobiography where in one paragraph, he moans about never getting selected for Ireland. A few pages later, he talks about seeing Flannery spending hours on his own every week throwing the ball at a goalpost again and again and again. He seems to find the whole thing ridiculous and sort of insane. He quite obviously just didn't see the link. He too seemed to think you can only get better with game time.
People on this thread have taken it to a new level again: Not only would Jackson & Keatley have only gotten better with gametime, but they somehow could only get better with international game time. That makes even less sense. The coaches watch every game they play in, and they get detailed reports from their provinces. They even go visit them at their training sessions. There are fundamental skills those players needed to improve - pressure kicking, decision making, set plays, kicking out of hand, garryowens etc. Those need to be at the required level before they get picked.
Contrary to popular belief, there are lots of ways to get better at rugby. One is game time. Another one is practice.
He could probably do less practising box kicking and more practising assessing his offensive line before he gets to the ruck, that'd be a great use of practising time.
LeRouxIsPHat wrote:I'm not sure how someone could say that Mads is a safer option now because of his kicking given that he attempted a 20 yard cross field kick instead of a pass the other day.
yeah they had to open the roof to get rid of the smell from that one
Retired from babbling. Can be found on twittter @okeeffesimon
CiaranIrl wrote:I'm always puzzled by the number of posts on forums which take it as self evident that you can only get better with game time. A coach will see players day in, day out. Lets say he's looking at a scrum half that can't pass out of a ruck with any pace ever. Is he supposed to say to himself, "Oh well, it's not his fault. He'll only learn how to do that if I start him in major competitive games." There are a million things that you can learn from training that mean you're not ready to start - things you can get better at with practice. Connor Murray talks about this a lot. Practicing exact box kicks repeatedly for example.
I'm reminded of a chapter in Jackman's autobiography where in one paragraph, he moans about never getting selected for Ireland. A few pages later, he talks about seeing Flannery spending hours on his own every week throwing the ball at a goalpost again and again and again. He seems to find the whole thing ridiculous and sort of insane. He quite obviously just didn't see the link. He too seemed to think you can only get better with game time.
People on this thread have taken it to a new level again: Not only would Jackson & Keatley have only gotten better with gametime, but they somehow could only get better with international game time. That makes even less sense. The coaches watch every game they play in, and they get detailed reports from their provinces. They even go visit them at their training sessions. There are fundamental skills those players needed to improve - pressure kicking, decision making, set plays, kicking out of hand, garryowens etc. Those need to be at the required level before they get picked.
Contrary to popular belief, there are lots of ways to get better at rugby. One is game time. Another one is practice.
He could probably do less practising box kicking and more practising assessing his offensive line before he gets to the ruck, that'd be a great use of practising time.
I wholeheartedly agree.
“As you all know first prize is a Cadillac El Dorado. Anyone wanna see second prize? Second prize is a set of steak knives. Third prize is you're fired.”
CiaranIrl wrote:I'm always puzzled by the number of posts on forums which take it as self evident that you can only get better with game time. A coach will see players day in, day out. Lets say he's looking at a scrum half that can't pass out of a ruck with any pace ever. Is he supposed to say to himself, "Oh well, it's not his fault. He'll only learn how to do that if I start him in major competitive games." There are a million things that you can learn from training that mean you're not ready to start - things you can get better at with practice. Connor Murray talks about this a lot. Practicing exact box kicks repeatedly for example.
I'm reminded of a chapter in Jackman's autobiography where in one paragraph, he moans about never getting selected for Ireland. A few pages later, he talks about seeing Flannery spending hours on his own every week throwing the ball at a goalpost again and again and again. He seems to find the whole thing ridiculous and sort of insane. He quite obviously just didn't see the link. He too seemed to think you can only get better with game time.
People on this thread have taken it to a new level again: Not only would Jackson & Keatley have only gotten better with gametime, but they somehow could only get better with international game time. That makes even less sense. The coaches watch every game they play in, and they get detailed reports from their provinces. They even go visit them at their training sessions. There are fundamental skills those players needed to improve - pressure kicking, decision making, set plays, kicking out of hand, garryowens etc. Those need to be at the required level before they get picked.
Contrary to popular belief, there are lots of ways to get better at rugby. One is game time. Another one is practice.
Think these comments are very fair and Joe talks a lot about what he sees in training and has used training as a justification for selection on occasion but that being said its impossible to replicate the intensity of test match rugby and all that goes with it - the intensity, the pressure of playing in front of 50k people and the actual physical pain for that matter. The other thing I'd like to see is players expanding their horizons as they develop. For example, as players are coming through could they play or train with southern hemisphere teams in the close season or for anything up to a season? There are players who have played in the South who have given massive credit to their time there in terms of how they play the game and prepare for it. I'd argue something similar for coaches. Leo Cullen spoke about how he went down to New Zealand just to observe and learn for a couple of weeks. Personally, I'd like to see rookie coaches like Cullen and Girv spend a summer down there shadowing and participating - and even top level coaches for that matter.
I'd rate him above Madigan and Jackson. Madigan has the skills but can takes the wrong options. Jackson has a lovely pass and can get a backline moving but can't kick. Hopefully for Ireland, JJ becomes a better players in Northampton.
