Ins & Outs for 6N training squad

[Golf Man]

|In about a months time Schmidt has to get the bandwagon rolling again - given the drop off in Munster and Leinster in particular he has a job ahead of him. Last year he named this 46 man training squad

Isaac Boss (Terenure College/Leinster) - gone surely
Tommy Bowe (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) - injured
Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) - injured/gone
Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster) - gone
Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
Luke Fitzgerald (Blackrock College/Leinster)
Craig Gilroy (Dungannon/Ulster)
Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht)
Felix Jones (Shannon/Munster)gone
Dave Kearney (Lansdowne/Leinster) gone surely
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
Ian Keatley (Young Munster/Munster) gone surely
Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster)
Kieran Marmion (Corinthians/Connacht)
Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
Jared Payne (Ulster)
Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Noel Reid (Clontarf/Leinster) gone surely
Jonathan Sexton (Racing Metro 92)
Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster)

Forwards (25) -

Michael Bent (Leinster) gone surely
Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
Jack Conan (Old Belvedere/Leinster) * gone surely
Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
James Cronin (Dolphin/Munster)
Robbie Diack (Malone/Ulster) gone surely
Dave Foley (UL Bohemians/Munster)
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster)
Iain Henderson (Ballynahinch/Ulster)- b]- injured[/b]
Rob Herring (Ballynahinch/Ulster)
Mike McCarthy (Leinster)
Jack McGrath (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Martin Moore (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Sean O'Brien (UCD/Leinster)
Paul O'Connell (Young Munster/Munster)gone
Tommy O'Donnell (UL Bohemians/Munster)- injured
Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)- injured
Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
Rhys Ruddock (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Dominic Ryan (Lansdowne/Leinster) gone surely
Richardt Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster)
Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Nathan White (Galwegians/Connacht) *

8 definitely gone, at least 7 surely not going to get in, - that's a pretty big turnaround - who's going to get in

Front Row ain't going to see much change - Healy will get in the squad but he is solely on reputation now - 18 months since any kind of performance - Cronin and Buckley look better bets, Furlong probably comes in but not like he is getting a huge amount of gametime

Lock is looking very light - Ryan wasn't available last year, otherwise Muldowney, possibly Dillane worth a shout
Back Row - Stander obviously, Murphys stock has fallen but he will probably get in due to injuries, Henry wasn't available last year, I hope VdF doesn't - let him keep playing with Leinster atm, Butler seems to be playing great stuff in France but ain't going to happen
Halves - Jackson is challenging Sexton - I'd pick him above him at the minute - great that he is kickjing as well. Cooney/McGrath instead of Boss, I'd get rid of REddan as well
Backs - Have to give McCloskey, Marshall, Trimble, Healy a place - possibly O Halloran as well

[simonokeeffe]

if anyone is tight for the time it can be surmised as 'I hate Dave Kearney'

[All Blacks nil]

Pretty accurate assessment

Regarding Munster players, TOD might be back mid January and should enter calculations. I would have thought Tomas O'Leary's experience and current form would put him in the picture. He has been excellent for Munster and whatever about McGrath, I cannot see how Cooney could be considered ahead of him. Keatly's plight is tragic (in rugby terms only). Having been the starting outhalf and producing the goods in the opening Six Nations game last season, he was completely ignored for the rest of the tournament. His form slowly deteriorated towards the end of the season and currently he is a million miles away from the squad.
Copeland hasn't done it so far. As one poster said of yesterday's match "he had his moments" but unfortunately that is an assessment of his season.
Sherry is bubbling under if any of the frontline trio were to become unavailable.
Cronin had a cracking game yesterday.
A feature of the squad will be the presence of many Ulster backs. It's hard to comprehend how Trimble and McCosker were left out if the RWC and those two along with Gilroy and Marshall may get call ups. Jackson who had a bit part at the RWC will be more involved now.
Connacht can expect to have a few squad debutants with Matt Healy in my opinion areal bolter for the Six Nations. onteresting times ahead.

PS Ross is a doubt for Six Nations

[simonokeeffe]

M Healy and Gilroy havent a prayer of making a Joe Schmidt squad with their defensive frailties

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Said it before but I think Gilroy is very poor technically. Bombed what should have been an easy enough finish recently because he had the ball in the wrong hand. I think all the good things he does far outweigh those kind of deficiencies but as I've said many times, I reckon he's the kind of player that Joe asks to work on things and sees very little improvement.

[Ruckedtobits]

More Connacht players (the IRFU Province after all) have to included. Healy, O'Halloran, Cooney, Marmion, Buckley, Ah You, Connolly and possibly Masterson all deserve inclusion based on performances to date. Dillane might also deserve it but is probably too small for international 2nd row. Captain Muldoon certainly deserves it but anno domini may displace him.

[Golf Man]

if anyone is tight for the time it can be surmised as 'I hate Dave Kearney'

as predictable as ever - I have 8 players being dropped (rather than injured or retired) and you focus on Kearney

I don't think we'll see a big overhaul tbh and if we see a more attacking approach then that might work fine - Schmidts Ireland are a bit like Mourinho's Chelsea - it mightn't be pretty but nobody will complain while things are going well - once things start to go badly though, people will turn on him (with justification in Mourinhos case - obviously we have to wait and see when it comes to Schmidt)

The personnel aren't overly important but what I would like to see more than anything else (these would also suggest that there is change afoot)

- Couple of guys are too set in stone for selection - Kearney/Heaslip/Ross/Sexton come to mind - they may well be the best option still but a bit of pressure on them can only be good (we saw some of this from Kearney in the world cup - in the group games he was good - I think he reacted to Zebos good form at full back)

- Jackson needs to be backed - Madigan has essentially been at a cross roads for the last couple of years and that's a situation that ismn't going to improve any time soon. Jackson is the form 10 by a mile.

- Healy: accept that Healy can not be treated as a special case at this point, like he was for the World Cup - he has been crippled by injury but his form simply does not warrant any special status. In the squad for sure but he does not have SOB/POC type status anymore - Cronin has been playing really well and McGrath is obv the best LH atm

- Locks: With POC gone and Henderson out we are in short supply - Toner, Ryan , Foley, Tuohy, McCarthy, O'Connor, Muldowney & Dillane are probably the only options - the first five are the easy options - I'd prefer to see at least 1 if not 2 of the last 3 and especially one of Dillane or O'Connor - nothing to lose

- Form - Take a chance (is it even that?) on some of the form players - Matt Healy, Masterson possibly, McCloskey, Van Der Flier, McCall - not sure what the best approach is on these guys - on one hand perhaps better not being elevated so quickly, but then it can't hurt - I would prefer to see players brought into camp and given a chance on balance

Its all about approach though - picking wingers for their rucking, and scrum halves fopr their defence will work but it has a ceiling - I think we've reached that ceiling - the difficult to beat approach has made us easier to read - a little bit more attacking approach in the big games is definitely needed

Oh and Luke Marshall - get him back in - a cracking player who offers something different to the other centres - great to see him back playing well

[Oldschoolsocks]

if anyone is tight for the time it can be surmised as 'I hate Dave Kearney'

as predictable as ever - I have 8 players being dropped (rather than injured or retired) and you focus on Kearney

I don't think we'll see a big overhaul tbh and if we see a more attacking approach then that might work fine - Schmidts Ireland are a bit like Mourinho's Chelsea - it mightn't be pretty but nobody will complain while things are going well - once things start to go badly though, people will turn on him (with justification in Mourinhos case - obviously we have to wait and see when it comes to Schmidt)

The personnel aren't overly important but what I would like to see more than anything else (these would also suggest that there is change afoot)

- Couple of guys are too set in stone for selection - Kearney/Heaslip/Ross/Sexton come to mind - they may well be the best option still but a bit of pressure on them can only be good (we saw some of this from Kearney in the world cup - in the group games he was good - I think he reacted to Zebos good form at full back)

- Jackson needs to be backed - Madigan has essentially been at a cross roads for the last couple of years and that's a situation that ismn't going to improve any time soon. Jackson is the form 10 by a mile.

- Healy: accept that Healy can not be treated as a special case at this point, like he was for the World Cup - he has been crippled by injury but his form simply does not warrant any special status. In the squad for sure but he does not have SOB/POC type status anymore - Cronin has been playing really well and McGrath is obv the best LH atm

- Locks: With POC gone and Henderson out we are in short supply - Toner, Ryan , Foley, Tuohy, McCarthy, O'Connor, Muldowney & Dillane are probably the only options - the first five are the easy options - I'd prefer to see at least 1 if not 2 of the last 3 and especially one of Dillane or O'Connor - nothing to lose

- Form - Take a chance (is it even that?) on some of the form players - Matt Healy, Masterson possibly, McCloskey, Van Der Flier, McCall - not sure what the best approach is on these guys - on one hand perhaps better not being elevated so quickly, but then it can't hurt - I would prefer to see players brought into camp and given a chance on balance

Its all about approach though - picking wingers for their rucking, and scrum halves fopr their defence will work but it has a ceiling - I think we've reached that ceiling - the difficult to beat approach has made us easier to read - a little bit more attacking approach in the big games is definitely needed

Oh and Luke Marshall - get him back in - a cracking player who offers something different to the other centres - great to see him back playing well

Are we still rolling out this trope? Do you honestly believe that this is the case?

Don't have much of a problem with anything else you have in there. For me the biggest trick we're missing is a scrummy who can get the ball quickly from the ruck, can break from the base of the ruck. Too much ball going to single runners IMHO

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I wouldn't go overboard about Jackson. He's essentially just had two excellent games in a row having been average at best before that. If we had a game this week then I'd certainly have him ahead of Madigan, not sure about Sexton. Point is, don't think any of them stand out and it's very much open to change.

[Golf Man]

I wouldn't go overboard about Jackson. He's essentially just had two excellent games in a row having been average at best before that. If we had a game this week then I'd certainly have him ahead of Madigan, not sure about Sexton. Point is, don't think any of them stand out and it's very much open to change.

That's ridiculously harsh on Jackson

Take the kicking to one side (because you obviously can't ignore it)

Sexton - great player but hasn't been in form for some time - obviously his best is a proven level above all other options
Jackson - has been consistently good for 12 months now (bit of a blip before th 6N last year possibly) - definitely the most impressive form wise
Madigan - I'm a huge fan but he hasn't really produced it at 10 week in week out in the last 2.5 years - not sure he ever will and at a real cross roads in his career

I'd be picking Sexton to start with Jackson on the bench, but a gentle reminder to Sexton that he isn't infallible would do no harm - go as far as actually making some non injury related changes ( or bring Jackson on at 50 minutes with the game in the balance)

Madigan will be in the squad but its a bit of a joke if he is picked before Jackson

[LeRouxIsPHat]

How on earth was I ridiculously harsh on Jackson? Said he had two excellent games against Toulouse and that I'd have him ahead of Madigan right now, and maybe even Sexton.

He hasn't been consistently good for 12 months. He had that blip you mentioned and missed a couple of months with an elbow injury (may even have been more) as well as being bang average from August until ten days or so ago. The last two games are hugely encouraging and I really like him as a player, but I definitely think you're taking too much from those Toulouse games. And also, my analysis of his form has no bearing on Sexton and Madigan's form.

[simonokeeffe]

Its ludicrous to say a guy who made the 31 man world cup squad and started big games is surely gone from a 46 man training squad when hes also featuring in Champions cup game and some of his primary competition is retired/out injured

most of the players 'gone' are retired/ancient/way down pecking order for their clubs

[Golf Man]

if anyone is tight for the time it can be surmised as 'I hate Dave Kearney'

as predictable as ever - I have 8 players being dropped (rather than injured or retired) and you focus on Kearney

I don't think we'll see a big overhaul tbh and if we see a more attacking approach then that might work fine - Schmidts Ireland are a bit like Mourinho's Chelsea - it mightn't be pretty but nobody will complain while things are going well - once things start to go badly though, people will turn on him (with justification in Mourinhos case - obviously we have to wait and see when it comes to Schmidt)

The personnel aren't overly important but what I would like to see more than anything else (these would also suggest that there is change afoot)

- Couple of guys are too set in stone for selection - Kearney/Heaslip/Ross/Sexton come to mind - they may well be the best option still but a bit of pressure on them can only be good (we saw some of this from Kearney in the world cup - in the group games he was good - I think he reacted to Zebos good form at full back)

- Jackson needs to be backed - Madigan has essentially been at a cross roads for the last couple of years and that's a situation that ismn't going to improve any time soon. Jackson is the form 10 by a mile.

- Healy: accept that Healy can not be treated as a special case at this point, like he was for the World Cup - he has been crippled by injury but his form simply does not warrant any special status. In the squad for sure but he does not have SOB/POC type status anymore - Cronin has been playing really well and McGrath is obv the best LH atm

- Locks: With POC gone and Henderson out we are in short supply - Toner, Ryan , Foley, Tuohy, McCarthy, O'Connor, Muldowney & Dillane are probably the only options - the first five are the easy options - I'd prefer to see at least 1 if not 2 of the last 3 and especially one of Dillane or O'Connor - nothing to lose

- Form - Take a chance (is it even that?) on some of the form players - Matt Healy, Masterson possibly, McCloskey, Van Der Flier, McCall - not sure what the best approach is on these guys - on one hand perhaps better not being elevated so quickly, but then it can't hurt - I would prefer to see players brought into camp and given a chance on balance

Its all about approach though - picking wingers for their rucking, and scrum halves fopr their defence will work but it has a ceiling - I think we've reached that ceiling - the difficult to beat approach has made us easier to read - a little bit more attacking approach in the big games is definitely needed

Oh and Luke Marshall - get him back in - a cracking player who offers something different to the other centres - great to see him back playing well

Are we still rolling out this trope? Do you honestly believe that this is the case?

Don't have much of a problem with anything else you have in there. For me the biggest trick we're missing is a scrummy who can get the ball quickly from the ruck, can break from the base of the ruck. Too much ball going to single runners IMHO

Agree on scrum half - Marmion/McGrath/Cooney need chances - I reckon we are mnore likely to see TOl replacing Boss though

On the wingers - sure the "rucking" phrase is overused at this stage, but its more focusing on the defensive, stable, low risk options rather than going for more attack minded players

[Golf Man]

Its ludicrous to say a guy who made the 31 man world cup squad and started big games is surely gone from a 46 man training squad when hes also featuring in Champions cup game and some of his primary competition is retired/out injured

most of the players 'gone' are retired/ancient/way down pecking order for their clubs

I don't think anybody could honestly say they were expecting Dave Kearney to break into the first team at the World Cup - I'd give him huge credit for that and I've a lot of time for him but he did benefit from injury (Trimble) loss of form (Bowe) and the fact that Zebo seemed to be considered more as a full back and Earls having to fill in a lot in the centre.

The back 3 options from the provinces

R Kearney, McFadden, Fitzgerald, D Kearney, Ringrose
Trimble, Gilroy
Zebo, Earls, Conway
Healy, O'Halloran

Bold are guaranteed - I really want Gilroy and Healy to get a proper chance. There needs to be at least one more full backl there - maybe Zebo but he isn't playing there meaning Conway and O Halloran could come into the discussion (possibly Henshaw?)

I don't think its ludrocious to suggest he'gone - unlikley to happen mind, but he will probably rightly or wrongly become a bit symbol of the post 2015 Schmidt era - if D Kearney is still in an elevated position with the optiosn that are there then we aren't going to change our way of playing

Just to note while I don't think he's a great player or anything I have huge time for Kearney - I like players who make the most of themselves (Jones, Dowling etc) - he falls into the same category

[simonokeeffe]

surely gone is a stretch, at risk maybe at worst

if Conway is the level of option though we could be here for a while naming players
IMO McFadden is fairly down the pecking order, Ringrose wont be considered as a back 3 for internationals, TOH best chance of the uncapped

21 will be interesting for Ireland alright

[Golf Man]

surely gone is a stretch, at risk maybe at worst

if Conway is the level of option though we could be here for a while naming players
IMO McFadden is fairly down the pecking order, Ringrose wont be considered as a back 3 for internationals, TOH best chance of the uncapped

21 will be interesting for Ireland alright

Hard to know with McFadden - I don't think he's likely to really be in the running for the 23 (although he's a Schmidt favourite) - I'd prefer that Healy/Gilroy got chances

Conway - by a process of elimination he has to be in the running - especially seeing as he has been playing at fb where we have Kearney and ...... as options.

Ringrose - very unlikley but I'd have no issue with him being fast tracked

Scrum Half - 2 of Boss/Reddan/TOL/Cooney/Marmion/McGrath should be in the squad with Murray (possibly 3 others for the training squad)- I've a bad feeling he'll go Boss/Reddan/TOL

[fourthirtythree]

McFadden was fit for the World Cup wasn't he? He just dropped out of contention even with injuries and poor form to others. I can't see him returning as he doesn't get much of a run at other positions and it was as a goal kicking 12 who played wing (and OC at a push). That kind of versatility is attractive. I don't think being a fairly regular winger with Leinster is.

[simonokeeffe]

at international level McFadden is a fairly mundane winger

Conway, with emergence of new messiahs in the centres, is probably behind RK, Zebo, Payne, and Henshaw in fullback pecking order

Gilroy out for a few weeks with a fractured eyesocket so hes out

[fourthirtythree]

All true. I don't see Henshaw as being thought of at all for fullback. Sure he was moved there for a season by Connacht in dire straits, but I think sorting out centre is more of a focus. Plus I don't think he would tear it up at international level at centre/ make best use of his talents. Any more than Ringrose would at wing.

Not that I see Ringrose as being in the running for anything more than the symbolic call up to the training squads this 6n. He will make the training squad but if someone gets injured they are more likely to call up a seasoned player to play than put him on the pitch.

[simonokeeffe]

balls.ie reporting Ringrosey and JVDF in the training camp starting Sunday

not full list and no Munster/Ulster players (?)