England v Ireland 6Ns 2016

[hugonaut]

And Stander is still a penalty machine

I can only remember one off the top of my head and thought he did what he had to do. It was when someone was caught behind the gainline and he got back and came in from the side. He did his absolute best to make it at least look reasonably legal but couldn't manage it. Don't think he had a choice though, we were screwed if England had got that ball back quickly.

He gave away both the penalties they kicked in the first half. To be honest, I don't think that makes him a 'penalty machine', but it is what it is.

I think he's playing pretty well and showing a lot of guts in every game. It's his first tournament of test rugby and he has looked like he's well able for it – not the dominant player he is at Munster yet, but if you are to put it as a case of sink or swim, he has definitely done the latter.

One thing that has been apparent over the last couple of games is that opposition back rows at test level can match his physicality, and that he's not going to make too many line breaks by running through people. On the other hand, he will carry the ball all day and takes a lot of tackling, so he is very much the focal point for the opposition defense. If we can get a few more hard-running players into the team [namely Henderson and O'Brien] that will provide us with some extra weight of gunnery and allow us to use those three players more tactically [i.e. as decoys or slip runners].

[All Blacks nil]

Another factor to be considered when assessing Stander's impact in his debut season is that he is playing out of position.

He obviously would have more opportunity at number 8 to carry.
Personally I can't wait to see him carry off a well promoted scrum into the 10 channel. With all the talk and horror at the thought of the physical pressure that England might exert on Johnny Sexton we seem to have forgotten to apply something similar on George Ford.

Promote the scrum on the tighthead side, tie up their backrow and let him loose. A simple ploy which, at the very least, guarantees front foot ball, and one which our starting frontrow are more than capable of facilitating yet one which Ireland rarely use.

Get a couple of runners trailing him (JDF, inside centre and possibly blindside wing although we do not want to draw their defenders into the channel) and look to offload and get behind defence.
As I said a simple ploy yet one Ireland rarely use.

[Oldschool]

Another factor to be considered when assessing Stander's impact in his debut season is that he is playing out of position.

He obviously would have more opportunity at number 8 to carry.
Personally I can't wait to see him carry off a well promoted scrum into the 10 channel. With all the talk and horror at the thought of the physical pressure that England might exert on Johnny Sexton we seem to have forgotten to apply something similar on George Ford.

Promote the scrum on the tighthead side, tie up their backrow and let him loose. A simple ploy which, at the very least, guarantees front foot ball, and one which our starting frontrow are more than capable of facilitating yet one which Ireland rarely use.

Get a couple of runners trailing him (JDF, inside centre and possibly blindside wing although we do not want to draw their defenders into the channel) and look to offload and get behind defence.
As I said a simple ploy yet one Ireland rarely use.

Your point re Stander at 8 is well made but then we lose Heaslip from the team and that's a net loss.

[All Blacks nil]

Is there any point in switching Stander to 8 on an Irish scrum. The mere fact that the opposition sees the switch means there is another attacking possibility and therefore another defensive choice to consider.

As it is they are queueing up to tackle our truck. Stander, or even a more passive runner like Heaslip being used in this fashion would narrow their defence and who knows maybe even create space.

Incidentally 2 of the 4 tries Ireland have conceded in this years Championship have come from similar situations i.e close in scrums and scoring off first phase.

We need strings to our attacking bow. 35 points in three games with a 100% placekicking record is grim reading.

[simonokeeffe]

if you compare Vunipola to similar (style) number 8s hes an 80 minute player at test level which is extremely rare

sorry to go cliche heavy but one area Stander adds real value is the hard yards carries into heavy traffic, the 1 or 2m gains close in which is an area we've lacked in before and blunted our best carriers attempting them, Ian Henderson is our only other player who is good at that
plenty of guys like Best, Ross, Toner, McCarthy, Ryan that can carry just to recycle/make no real ground
and all our other backrowers are better out wide and/or more about beating players with footwork and pace

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Mentioned this already but just with the talk of Stander, really don't get why he was taken off. I know the coaches have access to more data but Jamie looked wrecked to me in the last ten mins whereas Stander seemed to be growing into it and I reckon his carrying would have been important when we were upping the tempo. Jamie got the ball out wide a couple of times and to me it looked more like he was staying out there due to tiredness more than a game plan.

[fourthirtythree]

Yeah, I couldn't get it. Having Ruddock on for grunt and freeing Stander to carry more would have made more sense to me.

[Flash Gordon]

Daily Mirror rugby correspondent reporting that Mike Brown will not be cited for morris dancing on Murray's head.

[simonokeeffe]

Daily Mirror rugby correspondent reporting that Mike Brown will not be cited for morris dancing on Murray's head.

quelle surprise

again its an area already covered by law: reckless use of the boot but if World Rugby are serious about head injuries they need to clamp down on players flailing their feet wildly in rucks especially when they cant even see the ball

[Flash Gordon]

Daily Mirror rugby correspondent reporting that Mike Brown will not be cited for morris dancing on Murray's head.

quelle surprise

again its an area already covered by law: reckless use of the boot but if World Rugby are serious about head injuries they need to clamp down on players flailing their feet wildly in rucks especially when they cant even see the ball

I honestly don't believe that professional rugby really cares about player welfare. The cheap shot on Sexton, Kearney's near decapitation and this are all illegal hits that could have caused serious or career ending injuries and the authorities have done nothing about it. I think only when an incident happens like last weekend and somebody loses an eye and sues will they take it seriously. This isn't sour grapes at the result because England totally deserved to win but somebody is literally going to die on the pitch at some point unless this stuff is dealt with. God knows the game is hard enough even when you play within the letter and spirit of the laws!

[brenno]

Healy when he came on for Jack Mac looked a pale shadow of what he once was and J Cronin and Buckley must be wondering what they have to get into the 23. Quite simply, Healy's ball carrying and not his scrummaging is why he was on the Irish team in the first place and if he can't carry like he once did then get better scrummagers into the 23. Best's defensive work was solid but his lineouts and his understated style of captaincy are a worry. Ross did well at TH and overall the front row coped well in the tight. The worry is though when Ross hangs his boots and if Moore is frozen out by the IRFU for daring to take the queen's shilling. Moore is far and away our best TH after Ross although Furlong has time on his hands to develop his game

Other than that, thought all the newbies did well after slowish starts in the case of McCloskey and VDF. Dillane's cameo was sensational and as somebody said earlier the prospect of Dillane and Henderson in the second row is very tasty. Thought Ryan did pretty well - but not well enough to get on the Torygraph's team of the 6N this weekend although Toner's limitations around the pitch were crystal clear _ I'd give him the next two games to see if he can contribute more than a 6'11" presence in the line out. A year or two down the road Dillane and Henderson may (should?) be our starting second row and can't see Toner as an impact sub. When all our back row are fit then POM-SOB-CJ starting line-up with VDF on the bench looks very good - I don't think Heaslip justifies his place any more.

SH is still Murray and whoever, with Joe still apparently fixated on Reddan and leaving Marmion to stew out west. Can't figure that out - I'd have Marmion and Luke Mac ahead of Reddan any day. Jackson has to be given a start - probably against Italy - to give Sexton a rest and also to show that the way he has developed at Ulster can be replicated in green. He even seems to have improved his goalkicking no end.

Won't happen but I'd leave Kearney out for the Italy game and start Henshaw at 15. Kearney was just about ok v England but we need more that a steady eddie who can catch the high balls and then runs straight into traffic. Just look at the options Hogg gives Scotland when he runs back and Halfpenny for Wales (when he's fit). A centre combo of McCloskey and Ringrose with Earls and Zebo on the wings is at least an option that should be tried. Matt Healy deserves a runout but I don't think you could have two new caps in the three-quarter line.

On the bench , J Cronin or Buckley at LH, Cronin at hooker, Furlong at TH, Dillane again at lock although maybe bringing him on a bit earlier. Ruddock for back row, Marmion, Jackson and try Payne for 23 (he can cover FB and 12/13. Not saying this is a definitive selection but Joe has to start some experirements and against a poor Italy team seems the best place to start.

[FLIP]

Other than that, thought all the newbies did well after slowish starts in the case of McCloskey and VDF. Dillane's cameo was sensational and as somebody said earlier the prospect of Dillane and Henderson in the second row is very tasty. Thought Ryan did pretty well - but not well enough to get on the Torygraph's team of the 6N this weekend although Toner's limitations around the pitch were crystal clear _ I'd give him the next two games to see if he can contribute more than a 6'11" presence in the line out. A year or two down the road Dillane and Henderson may (should?) be our starting second row and can't see Toner as an impact sub. When all our back row are fit then POM-SOB-CJ starting line-up with VDF on the bench looks very good - I don't think Heaslip justifies his place any more.

Ryan was anonymous with only 4 carries and no passes made, and is clearly the one under threat from Dillane seeing as he was the one who got the crook, and how did VDF start slowly? He was highly involved from the get go - a very good debut from him.

As for the Heaslip nonsense, our "power carrier" only made 14m from 9 runs, while "out of form, poor carrier" Heaslip made 29m from 10, beating a defender one time and making a clean break another.

http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/playerstats ... gue=254969

[All Blacks nil]

Flip

You aren't comparing like with like when you are comparing Stander and Heaslip's carries at the weekend. Power carrier is indeed an apt description for Stander as All his carries were in heavy traffic. If we had a couple of more players to share that burden and deflect the defensive focus on Stander that might have benefitted the team.

Jamie made a couple of lovely runs on the right wing, although one of his carries culminated in a terrible kick ahead at the end of the first half.

[neiliog93]

Stander is a brilliant carrier in space, serious pace and can bust through tackles. But at 6'2" and apparently 114kg (I've seen him as 106 before which seems more like it) he doesn't really have the size or the power to run into 2 or 3 opposition forwards and make ground in the way that a Picamoles, Vunipola or a Tuilagi can. Still the best ball carrier we have.

[FLIP]

Flip

You aren't comparing like with like when you are comparing Stander and Heaslip's carries at the weekend. Power carrier is indeed an apt description for Stander as All his carries were in heavy traffic. If we had a couple of more players to share that burden and deflect the defensive focus on Stander that might have benefitted the team.

Jamie made a couple of lovely runs on the right wing, although one of his carries culminated in a terrible kick ahead at the end of the first half.

It's not just on the wings though. A lot was in traffic too. The usual media nonsense influences too many people into regressive thinking on Heaslip.

[ribs]

Murray - good or bad performance?

[Logorrhea]

Murray - good or bad performance?

His first 25 mins were probably the worst he's had in a green jersey. His kicking just gifted the English the ball uncontested at least three times.

He improved though so wouldn't hold it against him.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Bar a couple of box kicks that were too long and a couple of passes that were too high I thought Murray was excellent. His defence was unbelievable. It's always been good but it was seriously impressive on Saturday, particularly loved seeing his tackle on Billy V after he'd steamrolled Trimble. Stander played a part in that too but Murray worked incredibly hard for a scrumhalf throughout the entire game. It really was great to watch.

[Ruckedtobits]

A fair bit of wishful thing emerging about using Stander at No 8 by providing ball from 'right-side up' scrum, or for promoting Marmion & Jackson ahead of Murray and Sexton "just to give them a run" at this level.

Nobody gets capped in the 6N "just to give them a run". This is the competition which we play each year that pays all the bills and pays prize money, roughly in increments of €500k per place in the Table. RWC is for show, not dough, and is only of value to last four. No Irish Coach would ever consider experimenting with a player at 6N level, unless he has clearly shown it's justified, both in competition and more pertinently, at training.

Training is so important because the Coaches and team-mates see, close-up and personal, the players who might represent Ireland and be a team-mate. In the real world, not one Irish player who has been in camp with JS or DK before him, would believe that any player selected for 6N, was selected because of his Province. Some players might feel that either of those Coaches picked one ahead of another, because they knew player A better than Player B. But that's not bias, just familiarity.

Nobody who has not been in Camp since the beginning of the 6N, has any chance of being included at this point - unless there is a multiple injury crisis.

If Ireland had the capacity to promote the scrum on the Tight-head side against England, we would have done so. Against seven English forwards on their 5M line, both our replacement props were buckled by their direct opponents and overall opposition power. The overhead Cam in slo-mo gave a graphic illustration of White, followed by Cian & Dillane (his 2nd row), being creamed, just when we needed stability.

Finally, playing Cronin at hooker brings into account his throwing which is below par and has been thoughout his career. Best throws too low, too straight and too slow to 4 and 6. But Cronin regularly has problems finging his jumpers in those positions in Leinster.

One of our major problems with the Irish pack is that both of our 20-stone forwards, Ross and Toner, are not aggressive ball carriers. Those that are. Stander. Heaslip Henderson and O'Brien (and possibly Dillane) are not 20 stone and don't inflict as much power, or pain, as Vunipola or Pickamoles or Reid or Juan Smit.

We must continue to develop our skill-set because we will no longer overpower any of the big packs at set-piece time.

[Xanthippe]

Daily Mirror rugby correspondent reporting that Mike Brown will not be cited for morris dancing on Murray's head.

quelle surprise

again its an area already covered by law: reckless use of the boot but if World Rugby are serious about head injuries they need to clamp down on players flailing their feet wildly in rucks especially when they cant even see the ball

I honestly don't believe that professional rugby really cares about player welfare. The cheap shot on Sexton, Kearney's near decapitation and this are all illegal hits that could have caused serious or career ending injuries and the authorities have done nothing about it. I think only when an incident happens like last weekend and somebody loses an eye and sues will they take it seriously. This isn't sour grapes at the result because England totally deserved to win but somebody is literally going to die on the pitch at some point unless this stuff is dealt with. God knows the game is hard enough even when you play within the letter and spirit of the laws!

Oh now you're all just being silly - poor Mike Brown was forced to stand there while Conor Murray repeatedly banged his face off Brown's boot and dripped blood on him

Hasn't anyone told you that if you want to have a player cited then, instead of your face, you need to put your BIG TOE under their boot and have them step on that instead. Martin Castrogiovanni needs to receive a lifetime ban for the horrific, career ending damage he did to the toe of Duncan Taylor's boot.