England v Ireland 6Ns 2016

[neiliog93]

A fair bit of wishful thing emerging about using Stander at No 8 by providing ball from 'right-side up' scrum, or for promoting Marmion & Jackson ahead of Murray and Sexton "just to give them a run" at this level.

Nobody gets capped in the 6N "just to give them a run". This is the competition which we play each year that pays all the bills and pays prize money, roughly in increments of €500k per place in the Table. RWC is for show, not dough, and is only of value to last four. No Irish Coach would ever consider experimenting with a player at 6N level, unless he has clearly shown it's justified, both in competition and more pertinently, at training.

Training is so important because the Coaches and team-mates see, close-up and personal, the players who might represent Ireland and be a team-mate. In the real world, not one Irish player who has been in camp with JS or DK before him, would believe that any player selected for 6N, was selected because of his Province. Some players might feel that either of those Coaches picked one ahead of another, because they knew player A better than Player B. But that's not bias, just familiarity.

Nobody who has not been in Camp since the beginning of the 6N, has any chance of being included at this point - unless there is a multiple injury crisis.

If Ireland had the capacity to promote the scrum on the Tight-head side against England, we would have done so. Against seven English forwards on their 5M line, both our replacement props were buckled by their direct opponents and overall opposition power. The overhead Cam in slo-mo gave a graphic illustration of White, followed by Cian & Dillane (his 2nd row), being creamed, just when we needed stability.

Finally, playing Cronin at hooker brings into account his throwing which is below par and has been thoughout his career. Best throws too low, too straight and too slow to 4 and 6. But Cronin regularly has problems finging his jumpers in those positions in Leinster.

One of our major problems with the Irish pack is that both of our 20-stone forwards, Ross and Toner, are not aggressive ball carriers. Those that are. Stander. Heaslip Henderson and O'Brien (and possibly Dillane) are not 20 stone and don't inflict as much power, or pain, as Vunipola or Pickamoles or Reid or Juan Smit.

We must continue to develop our skill-set because we will no longer overpower any of the big packs at set-piece time.

Agree with most of that but set-piece brilliance is not purely about size. France have historically had by far the lightest forward pack in the 6 Nations (despite nonsense written about them having huge forwards that wasn't true until they converted two Polynesian props in Pelo and Antonio), yet they were strong in the scrum. I think Henderson could yet become an Irish forward who can run into a grouping of opposition forwards and still make ground. He's young, quick, hugely powerful already, dominated SA's 134kg second-row at u-20 level, and according to his Ulster profile is up to 121 kg (over 19 stone) in weight.

[All Blacks nil]

Flip

You aren't comparing like with like when you are comparing Stander and Heaslip's carries at the weekend. Power carrier is indeed an apt description for Stander as All his carries were in heavy traffic. If we had a couple of more players to share that burden and deflect the defensive focus on Stander that might have benefitted the team.

Jamie made a couple of lovely runs on the right wing, although one of his carries culminated in a terrible kick ahead at the end of the first half.

It's not just on the wings though. A lot was in traffic too. The usual media nonsense influences too many people into regressive thinking on Heaslip.

FLIP : for what it's worth

Heaslip's carrying v England.

2m 35s - Jamie catches a ricocheted high ball and runs a couple of metres backwards before passing to Johnny Sexton in traffic!!!
35m 30s - Heaslip receives the ball from Murray and makes no ground and is hit well behind gain line.
39m 50s -Heaslip receives turnover ball from Henshaw ball after Ryan strips Youngs on the English 10 metre line, runs 10 metres towards the 22m but kicks the ball over the dead all line!!
43m 40s Heaslip's carries 2 metres into the English 22m
68m 45s Heaslip receives the ball on right wing from Trimble and comes inside ( this may have been when he beat a defender) makes a metre and takes a tackle and goes to ground
69m 14s still out on right wing after previous carry, Jamie receives long cut out pass from Sexton and runs 20 metres before taking tackle on halfway

Six carries in my book although he did distribute at first receiver a couple of times and put the ball through his hands once towards the end.
He is an easy player to review as his boots make him easily identifiable. Reviewing the game he seemed to spend an awful lot of time on the right wing during the second half. Indeed he received one pass from Trimble who had lined up inside him. Obviously a tactical ploy by Joe.

None of his carries were in heavy traffic with the possible exception of his carry in the 35th minute. He was very passive at all times in contact. His little pop to an ever physically willing Johnny Sexton in the first couple of minutes was a curious play. Worth reviewing.

[All Blacks nil]

Having another look at the Mike Brown incident and while all focus is on Brown's mis use of the boot, it is astonishing to see that when Dillane is tackled that only Toner hits the ruck. Murray goes for the ball and JDF bridges him. JDF had been tackled and offloaded back to Dillane hence Murray arriving before him.Johnny Sexton is the only other player to approach the ruck and that is only because he realises that there is no scrum half.

It begs the questions where were the others and why were they not there? We have made a line break, have go forward ball and are looking for quick possession two metres from the English line.


CHECK IT OUT.
Zebo and Kearney are involved at the last ruck, with Zebo carrying and Kearney clearing out. Dillane receives a longish pass (outside Sexton) from Murray, with Toner and JDF either side of him and White, Healy and Ruddock just behind him.Dillane breaks through a tackle and is supported by JDF and trailed by Toner. Murray trails as the scrum half should and has to actually go to ground to secure possession. Johnny then becomes the Scrumhalf.

Ruddock, Healy and White were obviously the next pod to truck the ball up.Unfortunately when Dillane made his line break none of them reacted and broke from the system. They can be seen approaching the breakdown area AFTER Care has been penalised, AFTER the advantage has been played and AFTER Brown has tried to kick the ball out of Murray's hands/head. The ball would have been in play for 10 or 11 seconds 2 metres from the English line.

Surely when we make a line break it overrides everything, even the system. This was terrible and is symptomatic of why Ireland are struggling to convert line breaks into points.

[Oldschool]

Having another look at the Mike Brown incident and while all focus is on Brown's mis use of the boot, it is astonishing to see that when Dillane is tackled that only Toner hits the ruck. Murray goes for the ball and JDF bridges him. JDF had been tackled and offloaded back to Dillane hence Murray arriving before him.Johnny Sexton is the only other player to approach the ruck and that is only because he realises that there is no scrum half.

It begs the questions where were the others and why were they not there? We have made a line break, have go forward ball and are looking for quick possession two metres from the English line.


CHECK IT OUT.
Zebo and Kearney are involved at the last ruck, with Zebo carrying and Kearney clearing out. Dillane receives a longish pass (outside Sexton) from Murray, with Toner and JDF either side of him and White, Healy and Ruddock just behind him.Dillane breaks through a tackle and is supported by JDF and trailed by Toner. Murray trails as the scrum half should and has to actually go to ground to secure possession. Johnny then becomes the Scrumhalf.

Ruddock, Healy and White were obviously the next pod to truck the ball up.Unfortunately when Dillane made his line break none of them reacted and broke from the system. They can be seen approaching the breakdown area AFTER Care has been penalised, AFTER the advantage has been played and AFTER Brown has tried to kick the ball out of Murray's hands/head. The ball would have been in play for 10 or 11 seconds 2 metres from the English line.

Surely when we make a line break it overrides everything, even the system. This was terrible and is symptomatic of why Ireland are struggling to convert line breaks into points.

Looks like Toner was doing a lot better than he's been given credit for.
Carry stats can be misleading.
Take Billy for example, he carried well for sure but that one (flukey)carry down the blindside totally distorts his success.
Murray's passing is causing us problems.
And on few occasions he man and balled his pass.

[simonokeeffe]

Chapeau to one of the posters here on twitter (not sure if they want to be publicly named or not)

[All Blacks nil]

In fairness to Toner everything he does is at the coalface, be it carrying, tackling or breakdown work.
Puts in a decent shift everytime.
He has a real engine and generally gets the job done. Not a bad line out option either!!!!
A forward's forward.

In the Brown incident, he is the first (and only) player to hit the ruck. One more forward and that ball would have been quick as lightening. As I said above JDF had been tackled while offloading to Dillane yet is the second forward to arrive.

Our carrying pod of Healy, White and Ruddock have made zero contribution to the play.
Once the line break was made they should have reacted and followed it through.
They were more or less in the same starting position as Dillane, Toner and JDF, being no more than three metres away, but were unfortunately playing to a system, probably a predetermined set of phases.
Playing with a playbook in their heads as opposed to a brain or rugby instinct.

Unbelievably poor play and as I said above symptomatic of why Ireland are failing to convert clean line breaks into points.

With regard to Billy V's carrying stats being distorted by one "flukey" carry during which he speedbumped Trimble, he had 17 carries in total conceding only one turnover when Johnny ripped the ball in contact. He beat 9 defenders in total and made ground seemingly at will. He was difficult to stop or knock and was aggressive in everything he did in both attack and defences. An absolutely dominant performance which now sets the bar for any Lions wannabees.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

A fair bit of wishful thing emerging about using Stander at No 8 by providing ball from 'right-side up' scrum,

Not on my part anyway. Firstly, he's been brilliant off the back of a retreating scrum for Munster, but more importantly, the game opened up and we had our back rowers running off Murray a lot. The least effective of those players was Heaslip and as I said previously he actually ended up on the wing a couple of times when it would have been better to reverse roles with the guy inside. Stander had also been growing into the game and that looser style would have really suited him.

[Oldschool]

In fairness to Toner anything he does is at the coalface.
Puts in a decent shift everytime.
He has a real engine and generally gets the job done. A forward's forward.

In the Brown incident, he is the first (and only) player to hit the ruck. One more forward and that ball would have been quick as lightening. As I said above JDF had been tackled while offloading to Dillane yet is the second forward to arrive.

Our carrying pod of Healy, White and Ruddock have made zero contribution to the play.
Once the line break was made they should have reacted and followed it through.
They were more or less in the same starting position as Dillane, Toner and JDF, being no more than three metres away, but were unfortunately playing to a system, probably a predetermined set of phases.
Playing with a playbook in their heads as opposed to a brain or rugby instinct.

Unbelievably poor play and as I said above symptomatic of why Ireland are failing to convert clean line breaks into points.

Healy isn't up to international level anymore. His carrying has gone to pot sadly and his scrummaging isn't what it used to be.
Joe needs to bite the bullet. James Cronin should get a PROPER crack over the next two games.
White is a stop gap.
As you say tho' Ireland have missed out a lot this season on capitalising on line breaks. Our support play is something that badly needs to be addressed.
Maybe we are over coached. The only defence that could be made is the disruption caused by so many injuries.
Having all the provinces playing the same style of rugby would help.

[Oldschool]

A fair bit of wishful thing emerging about using Stander at No 8 by providing ball from 'right-side up' scrum,

Not on my part anyway. Firstly, he's been brilliant off the back of a retreating scrum for Munster, but more importantly, the game opened up and we had our back rowers running off Murray a lot. The least effective of those players was Heaslip and as I said previously he actually ended up on the wing a couple of times when it would have been better to reverse roles with the guy inside. Stander had also been growing into the game and that looser style would have really suited him.

Have to agree re Stander and the retreating scrum but not the more importantly etc.
That skill at the back of the scrum is points saving and in close games can be the difference between winning and losing especially now , because refs don't want to blow scrums if they can avoid it.

[All Blacks nil]

A fair bit of wishful thing emerging about using Stander at No 8 by providing ball from 'right-side up' scrum,

Not on my part anyway. Firstly, he's been brilliant off the back of a retreating scrum for Munster, but more importantly, the game opened up and we had our back rowers running off Murray a lot. The least effective of those players was Heaslip and as I said previously he actually ended up on the wing a couple of times when it would have been better to reverse roles with the guy inside. Stander had also been growing into the game and that looser style would have really suited him.

When you say "back rowers running off Murray a lot", bear in mind Heaslip made six carries, 3 of them on the right wing, one from a ricocheting kick, and two passes from Murray. So to say that Jamie was running off Murray is a stretch. The Irish scrumhalves, Murray and Reddan made 101 passes between them, four of which went to Heaslip. He acted as first receiver and distributor on two occasions.

Jamie spent almost the entire second half on the right wing.
I don't for one second think that he decided to do that himself. It must have been terribly frustrating to have to play that role for Ireland and am curious as to what others think of this tactic. It is hard to influence a game or lead your team from that part of the pitch.
When you see the influential roles played by Parisse (lost the rag a bit), Falateau, Vunipola and the Scottish No8 who's name escapes me, at the weekend you would wonder is being stationed on the right wing the best use of our number 8.

[Oldschool]

A fair bit of wishful thing emerging about using Stander at No 8 by providing ball from 'right-side up' scrum,

Not on my part anyway. Firstly, he's been brilliant off the back of a retreating scrum for Munster, but more importantly, the game opened up and we had our back rowers running off Murray a lot. The least effective of those players was Heaslip and as I said previously he actually ended up on the wing a couple of times when it would have been better to reverse roles with the guy inside. Stander had also been growing into the game and that looser style would have really suited him.

When you say "back rowers running off Murray a lot", bear in mind Heaslip made six carries, 3 of them on the right wing, one from a ricocheting kick, and two passes from Murray. So to say that Jamie was running off Murray is a stretch. The Irish scrumhalves, Murray and Reddan made 101 passes between them, four of which went to Heaslip. He acted as first receiver and distributor on two occasions.

Jamie spent almost the entire second half on the right wing.
I don't for one second think that he decided to do that himself. It must have been terribly frustrating to have to play that role for Ireland and am curious as to what others think of this tactic. It is hard to influence a game or lead your team from that part of the pitch.
When you see the influential roles played by Parisse (lost the rag a bit), Falateau, Vunipola and the Scottish No8 who's name escapes me, at the weekend you would wonder is being stationed on the right wing the best use of our number 8.

While the score board might not reflect it, we were much better in the second half. That's not analysis, simply an observation.
Unfortunately when we needed somebody outside, Jamie wasn't there so you'd have to do a bit more more digging to find out why,
My feeling is that in attack he played wide (perhaps to be on hand when the play broke down) while in defense he was in his more usual defensive position.

[Xanthippe]

Chapeau to one of the posters here on twitter (not sure if they want to be publicly named or not)

It's the "that stray boot nearly took his eye out you idiot" part that I find particularly enlightening!

[hugonaut]

Flip

You aren't comparing like with like when you are comparing Stander and Heaslip's carries at the weekend. Power carrier is indeed an apt description for Stander as All his carries were in heavy traffic. If we had a couple of more players to share that burden and deflect the defensive focus on Stander that might have benefitted the team.

Jamie made a couple of lovely runs on the right wing, although one of his carries culminated in a terrible kick ahead at the end of the first half.

It's not just on the wings though. A lot was in traffic too. The usual media nonsense influences too many people into regressive thinking on Heaslip.

Absolutely. He won two breakdown peanalties as a jackal as well, one in each half. There's an amazing difference in general perception when the commentary team don't make a big deal out of it.

[simonokeeffe]

Chapeau to one of the posters here on twitter (not sure if they want to be publicly named or not)

It's the "that stray boot nearly took his eye out you idiot" part that I find particularly enlightening!

yeah that was a good bit, wonder will that do the rounds in UK rugby media

I didnt like the amateur era pundits trotting out the usual oh its part of the game and in my day blah blah blah

Mike Brown probably weighs more than most amateur era backrowers