2016 Summer Tour to South Africa.

[Oldschool]

It's early days but what should our approach to this tour.
Full on to win, development or a mix.
Players like Heaslip, Sexton, SOB, Best, Jack McGrath should be rested.
Players like Ross, McCarthy omitted to allow development.
Players like Ringrose, McGrath, McCloskey need the development experience.
Players omitted who are now surplus to requirments like Reddan and Boss.
Any there any bolters, like VDFlier who might come into consideration.
What would a squad of 30 look like at this juncture.
Healy, Cronin
Cronin, Strauss
Moore, Furlong
Toner, Ryan, Touhy, Henderson
Ruddock, ??????, TOD, Henry, Stander, Conan
Murray, McGrath
Jackson, Madigan
Henshaw, McCloskey
Payne, Ringrose
Trimble, Bowe, Earls, Fitzgerald.
Kearney, Zebo

Possible development players:-
Forwards:- Buckley(LH), Bealham(TH), Kearney(SR), VDF(BR)
Backs:- Marmion(SH), Olding(Centre), Gilroy (Back Three)

[johng]

You have to bring Van der Flijer For the dutch name alone...... (and the fact that he's a cracking player)

[simonokeeffe]

Personally I'd take Jamie, Wolverine Blood and all that

a 5th prop will go, possibly Bealham as double sided

Dillane could well be ahead of Tuohy,

5 backrowers plus Henderson, dont see Conan making it myself (especially if Heaslip and Stander go)

My guess Murray, McGrath, Marmion all go
Olding has to go (for versatility)
RK might get a rest

Possible elephant in the room is if 2 Irish sides make Pro 12 final
Semis May 21st Final May 28th
First Test June 11th

[leinsterforever]

First Test: Cape Town, Saturday, June 11
Second Test: Johannesburg, Saturday, June 18
Third Test: Port Elizabeth, Saturday, June 25

Joe's Ireland tend to have disjointed performances if training time is disrupted by travel and short turnarounds. At least there aren't any six-day turnarounds, and hopefully they'll be able to travel swiftly and efficiently between destinations so they can get in enough practice and thus perform well.

We should be going all out to do our best in this series. Imagine how prestigious a Test series victory in South Africa would be. I don't think we can afford to rest players like Best and McGrath. As regards development, inexperienced players should be picked if their selection is merited on form. I don't think using the series as purely a development tour is a good idea. Maybe giving guys like Ringrose and van der Flier time off the bench would be the best thing

[Oldschool]

You have to bring Van der Flijer For the dutch name alone...... (and the fact that he's a cracking player)

Looks like you could be right.

[simonokeeffe]

You have to bring Van der Flijer For the dutch name alone...... (and the fact that he's a cracking player)

Looks like you could be right.

could be the most dutch sounding roster to tour SA until Scotland do it

[erskinechilders]

You would hope that he uses this tour to blood some young players, but I can't see him bringing that many tbh. You don't blood a player against SA, especially not on the Highveld. These 3 matches are going to be so attritional, I expect us to have to bring in a number of replacements. Its just a little bit of a pity we aren't playing a game against one of the S15 teams. That would give him an opportunity to blood these young lads. I expect him to bring about 33/34 players, no 30 player restriction here!

Props : Loosehead: Healy ( needs game time ), McGrath ( our first choice LH by a mile atm ), Cronin/ Kilcoyne ( and possibly one of McCall/ Buckley )
Tighthead: Ross, Moore ( Will hopefully be back and could do a with at least one start in the test ), Furlong, no White, plan for the future!

Hookers: Best ( No way he's going to be left behind in his first tour as captain ), Strauss and Cronin. Herring is next in line and would love to play against his countrymen

Second Row: Toner, Ryan, Dillane, Henderson

Back Row: Heaslip, O'Brien, O'Mahony ( if fit ), Ruddock, Stander, van der Flier

Scrum-half: Murray, Reddan ( if he signs another contract, if not Marmion ), Luke McGrath ( has to be included imo, if even to be around the squad! )

Out-half: Sexton, Jackson ( Madigan should be let have a full pre-season with Bordeaux, give him to time to settle in and we'll see the benefits of it in the future. )

Centre: McCloskey, Henshaw, Payne, Fitzgerald, Olding ( Ringrose won't be there til Canada in the November internationals, another full pre-season )

Back Three: Kearney, Zebo, Trimble, Bowe, Earl

Total : 34

[neiliog93]

He won't take 34 players, most previous Summer tours have been more like 29. I'd say he'll go for around 31, same as a RWC squad. I'd agree with most of your picks.

Loosehead Props: Healy, J.McGrath, D.Buckley
Tighthead Props: Ross, Furlong (Moore seems to be out of favour generally based both on form and his move abroad)
Hookers: Best (yes he's old but he is the captain), Strauss, S.Cronin

Secondrows: Toner, Ryan, Henderson, Dillane

Backrows: Heaslip, Stander, SOB, VDF, Henry (don't think POM will be fit. Tough on Ruddock but Henry can play both sides and when fit is a Schmidt favourite. Henderson can also fill in at 6).

9s: Murray, Marmion, L.McGrath (even if Reddan signs on for another year there's no point in bringing an out of form 35 yr old)

10s: Sexton, Jackson (Madigan still struggling to control a game at 10 and is moving off to France)

Centres: McCloskey, Henshaw, L.Marshall (good recent form), Olding

Back 3: R.Kearney, Payne, Fitzgerald, Zebo, Earls (Trimble has been average in the 6 Nations and is 31)

Definitely an argument for bringing one/both of Gilroy and Matt Healy, in an attacking sense the best wings in the country. There's not a huge amount on the line on this tour and the weather would be good with nice hard ground so might suit them. Don't expect Schmidt to do it but if there's a good time to test them against top level opposition, this is it.

[simonokeeffe]

Coetzee expected to be announced as Boks coach tomorrow, one of the criticisms seems to be Stormers played boring defensive rugby under him, this true or not?

[hugonaut]

He won't take 34 players, most previous Summer tours have been more like 29. I'd say he'll go for around 31, same as a RWC squad. I'd agree with most of your picks.

Loosehead Props: Healy, J.McGrath, D.Buckley
Tighthead Props: Ross, Furlong (Moore seems to be out of favour generally based both on form and his move abroad)
Hookers: Best (yes he's old but he is the captain), Strauss, S.Cronin

Secondrows: Toner, Ryan, Henderson, Dillane

Backrows: Heaslip, Stander, SOB, VDF, Henry (don't think POM will be fit. Tough on Ruddock but Henry can play both sides and when fit is a Schmidt favourite. Henderson can also fill in at 6).

9s: Murray, Marmion, L.McGrath (even if Reddan signs on for another year there's no point in bringing an out of form 35 yr old)

10s: Sexton, Jackson (Madigan still struggling to control a game at 10 and is moving off to France)

Centres: McCloskey, Henshaw, L.Marshall (good recent form), Olding

Back 3: R.Kearney, Payne, Fitzgerald, Zebo, Earls (Trimble has been average in the 6 Nations and is 31)

Definitely an argument for bringing one/both of Gilroy and Matt Healy, in an attacking sense the best wings in the country. There's not a huge amount on the line on this tour and the weather would be good with nice hard ground so might suit them. Don't expect Schmidt to do it but if there's a good time to test them against top level opposition, this is it.

Good squad.

I don't know what the thinking is on Cian Healy. He hasn't played much rugby this season so he might be fresh, but he's clearly out of form and way off his best at the moment. If he finds some form and finishes the season well, he should be an automatic selection. If he doesn't, he shouldn't tour. Jack McGrath, Denis Buckley and Dave Kilcoyne are the form looseheads in Ireland at the moment in my point of view [in that order, as well].

I don't think there's going to be much debate on the hookers. Best is captain, Cronin still provides the most impact off the bench and Strauss is still ahead of Herring and any of the Munster No2s.

I think three tightheads should tour, because Rossy is really getting on [36 already] and we should be looking to the immediate future. Ross, Furlong and Moore or Bealham to tour.

Agree 100% on your second row choice.

I think that Rhys will go ahead of Chris Henry – he has played openside against the Boks before [very successfully] and obviously he's a strong choice at blindside. He's got 6+ years on Chris Henry and the latter hasn't had a particularly good season. If POM makes it back I'd go with Heaslip, O'Brien, POM, Stander, Ruddock, which is a very strong selection of backrows.

Agree 100% on your halfback choice.

I think Ringrose will go as a centre ahead of both Ulster options - Henshaw, McCloskey, Payne, Ringrose.

Back three is quite tricky – I expect Rob Kearney to be back, Zebo will be there as both wing and fullback, Earls will be there, Fitz has a good shot of getting in there because of his versatility as a No23, and I think Matt Healy is in such good form that it'd be a bad mistake to omit him.

Obviously that means leaving out all three Ulster wingers, which would be a big call. A lot depends on the last part of the Pro12 and who shows up well in the last couple of regular season interpros – Connacht/Munster and Ulster/Leinster – and the knock-outs.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I've been saying this pretty much since Joe took over and it hasn't happened but I hope we see plenty of rotation on this tour. I'd like to see starts for Strauss, Furlong/Moore, Dillane, Stander at 8, Marmion, Jackson, and McCloskey. Wouldn't be against Luke McGrath and Ringrose being capped too.

Really like the look of Bealham recently and would probably take both himself and Buckley. Moore's lack of games would probably mean he's the one I'd leave at home. I'm surprising myself by not saying that I'd leave Ross at home but I think the 6N probably proved that he's still an important player for Ireland and is worthy of a place, I would probably start him in two games at most and get him off early in both of those though, then leave him out of one test entirely.

Looking forward to seeing Henderson back. Hopefully he's firing on all cylinders by then and can give us the bite we lacked in the first few games.

Given how the provinces have done in Europe and the injury profile we currently have, we could well being in the best shape we've been in decades for an end of season tour. I've been worried about this one for a long time but things are looking good now. This tour and the games against NZ give us a real chance to grow as a team and announce ourselves as a real force in world rugby. We have the players and coaches to beat SH teams regularly and need to kick on from our 6N wins and the disappointment of the World Cup. If we don't do it this year then I struggle to see us doing it in time for the next World Cup.

[neiliog93]

This is an almost unique opportunity to win a full tour in South Africa. Going there is rare and having a realistic chance of winning even rarer still. They have a new coach and some senior players have moved on. They will lack cohesion and may struggle to implement a new game plan. If we can catch them on the hop a bit in the first two tests before they gel more and inevitably react violently against a tired Ireland side in the third test, we could win the series 2-1.

[simonokeeffe]

I've been saying this pretty much since Joe took over and it hasn't happened but I hope we see plenty of rotation on this tour. I'd like to see starts for Strauss, Furlong/Moore, Dillane, Stander at 8, Marmion, Jackson, and McCloskey. Wouldn't be against Luke McGrath and Ringrose being capped too.

Really like the look of Bealham recently and would probably take both himself and Buckley. Moore's lack of games would probably mean he's the one I'd leave at home. I'm surprising myself by not saying that I'd leave Ross at home but I think the 6N probably proved that he's still an important player for Ireland and is worthy of a place, I would probably start him in two games at most and get him off early in both of those though, then leave him out of one test entirely.

Looking forward to seeing Henderson back. Hopefully he's firing on all cylinders by then and can give us the bite we lacked in the first few games.

Given how the provinces have done in Europe and the injury profile we currently have, we could well being in the best shape we've been in decades for an end of season tour. I've been worried about this one for a long time but things are looking good now. This tour and the games against NZ give us a real chance to grow as a team and announce ourselves as a real force in world rugby. We have the players and coaches to beat SH teams regularly and need to kick on from our 6N wins and the disappointment of the World Cup. If we don't do it this year then I struggle to see us doing it in time for the next World Cup.

Bealham is another guy who is thriving, deserves a place

IMO Ringrose is in more need of spending the summer in the gym

[LeRouxIsPHat]

This is an almost unique opportunity to win a full tour in South Africa. Going there is rare and having a realistic chance of winning even rarer still. They have a new coach and some senior players have moved on. They will lack cohesion and may struggle to implement a new game plan. If we can catch them on the hop a bit in the first two tests before they gel more and inevitably react violently against a tired Ireland side in the third test, we could win the series 2-1.

I agree with you but I remember thinking the same thing in 2004 and getting battered

@Simon, I don't actually think Ringrose will travel although that's based on what Leo said before Christmas about holding him back because of exams. Just get the feeling he'll be minded but personally I think he'd be well able for it and I'd only plan on giving him 20 minutes in the last test or something along those lines.

[simonokeeffe]

This is an almost unique opportunity to win a full tour in South Africa. Going there is rare and having a realistic chance of winning even rarer still. They have a new coach and some senior players have moved on. They will lack cohesion and may struggle to implement a new game plan. If we can catch them on the hop a bit in the first two tests before they gel more and inevitably react violently against a tired Ireland side in the third test, we could win the series 2-1.

I agree with you but I remember thinking the same thing in 2004 and getting battered

@Simon, I don't actually think Ringrose will travel although that's based on what Leo said before Christmas about holding him back because of exams. Just get the feeling he'll be minded but personally I think he'd be well able for it and I'd only plan on giving him 20 minutes in the last test or something along those lines.

I kinda thought so but that (tour) takes 4 or 5 weeks out of his pre season
Skill wise hes ready and Bok centres or backs in general unlikely to be monsters

POM looks out of this tour if Axel says hes not playing for Munster this season

[Ruckedtobits]

Cape Town is the big opportunity for a win.
At sea level;
SA Squad coming out of Super Rugby and French Japanese & English seasons;
New coach trying to mix those guys together with new philosophy;
Probable pressure for racially-influenced selection.

J'berg has altitude, very hard pitch and intimidating supporters, plus an extra wekk of SA squad integration

Port Elizabeth is at sea level and could be wet. SA should be at strongest with three weeks together and opportunity to take on-board new ideas.

A series win would be phenomenal but highly unlikely. A win would do wonders for our Ranking position. Losses away from home (so long as they are <15 pts) don't impact as much.

There is no chance this will be experimental Squad. Joes has best chance in more than a decade to take a fully prepared Squad on summer tour to a big opponent at a time it's ungoing change itself. This is the perfect opportunity to have a go at getting a win in S Hemisphere.

That said. Bealham, Matt Healy. Ringrose and possibly Buckley could get in the Squad if Connacht finish off the job or make the final.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Matt Healy, Luke McGrath, Quinn Roux, and Ringrose are in the training squad that will assemble next week.

[cormac]

Here's the full squad

Ireland One-Day National Camp
Finlay Bealham, Rory Best, Sean Cronin, Ultan Dillane, Keith Earls, Tadgh Furlong, Craig Gilroy, Matt Healy, Cian Healy, Jamie Heaslip, Iain Henderson, Robbie Henshaw, Rob Herring, Paddy Jackson, David Kearney, Rob Kearney, David Kilcoyne, Ian Madigan, Kieran Marmion, Luke Marshall, Stuart McCloskey, Fergus McFadden, Jack McGrath, Luke McGrath, Jordi Murphy, Conor Murray, Sean O'Brien, Tommy O'Donnell, Stuart Olding, Peter O'Mahony, Jared Payne, Eoin Reddan, Garry Ringrose, Mike Ross, Quinn Roux, Rhys Ruddock, Donnacha Ryan, Jonathan Sexton, CJ Stander, Richardt Strauss, Devin Toner, Andrew Trimble, Josh van der Flier, Simon Zebo.

[Ruckedtobits]

That's a very comprehensive Squad. Now who else can emerge from it and step-up to real international level?

It's a small complaint but as a former coach I always preferred to leave out guys who had lost form and tell them why and what work-ons, rather than clutter the ground (and the perception) by just including new faces who had to try and figure out where they were in the pecking order.

[simonokeeffe]

I think therell be very few overseas Boks selected

If you look at now overseas players from RWC squad and/or who is retired or no hope of making 2019 (and all this helps with transformation)
you definitely have the 2 Du Plesis (31 & 33), Matfield (80), Burger (33), Dupreez (34), Pienaar (32), De Villiers retired or too old, Habana skipping series to play 7s
maybe have Alberts (32) Louw (31)
Plus backrow is one area where there are high level coloured players and Coetzee coached a few of them at Stormers

Vermuelen (29), Pietersen (29) and maybe Kirchner (32) might make it from overseas on 2019 viability or transformation

Beast, Strauss, Oosthuizen, Etzebeth, De Jager, Kolisis, Carr, Vermuelen, Paige, Pollard, Pietersen, De Allende, Serfontein, Mvovo, Le Roux
Nyakane, LH, Malherbe, Du Toit, Mohoje, Reinarch, Lambie, Kirchner