The looking forward to the Lions Tour thread

[nelly the elephant]

I was purely talking about the first half. Think he's had a good tour and an excellent second half.

My bad, never looked at the timeline.

[Fan with smartphone]

Lowe officially having a mare now.

Maori just haven't turned up really.

You gotta remember these guys only get a week together too and the lions have definitely found more continuity now. Plus he isn't in his best position. But yeah, nothing happening for him at all. Will he and McKenzie play for chiefs? I'd say you'll see a better display then if they do.

Te'o having a good tour, but the games and selections have fallen kindly for him. Just think he is limited and basically Henshaw is better than him, but Te'o is probably having the more eye-catching tour.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Have no doubts about Lowe as a player, just purely commenting on today's performance. His positioning has actually been good at fullback, wouldn't mind seeing him there on a dry day.

[Hippo]

Hugely impressed by Itoje, great temperament and superb all round performance

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Just imagine how good the Lions will be with Dacey and Hill!

Really good performance from 1-10. The pack and halfbacks have definitely made a big step forward. Centres good too but they'll need to be far more involved next week. Back three still very average and I don't think it was just the conditions that ensured that. Definitely good to have the improvement up front so they can try and impose themselves next week but the test will be totally different. The Maori barely challenged them but NZ will play with so much more pace and power regardless of what the conditions are like. Set piece looks like being a weapon anyway.

Great to hear POM saying he's fine, really hope that's true. Think it was his knee that forced him off and it looked like a very sore clear out but there was also his ankle just before HT and when he went down after the clear out he grabbed his hamstring straight away. Hard to imagine none of those things flare up tomorrow.

[jimbobjoe]

I wasn't too fussed about the lions before the tour started but the combo of those embarrassing call ups and a horrendous brand of rugby as put me off completely. I think I'll be staying in bed the next few weekends instead of getting up for that shite.

[Ruckedtobits]

Suspect that both Furlong and O'Mahony will be selected for First Test. I fear the consequences.

[simonokeeffe]

I want the All Blacks to win now for 2 reasons

1. Theyre trying to score tries, Gatty's Lions trying to win penalties

2. I use this word guardedly but some of the (Welsh) call ups are a disgrace. Theyre largely tackle bag holders for training for 2 midweek games but not only has he blatantly picked Welsh guys hes picked peripheral guys largely to not mess too much with Wales test against Samoa. G Davies the scrumhalf is a legit call (Care close) but Dacey is behind Baldwin (and Hartley, the 2 Scottish hookers) and Baldwin is available, Francis is behind Lee (and arguably J Ryan, Mullan, Nel) but Lee is available. Cory Hill is behind more second rows than a number 8's arse. Not many coaches would take Finn Russell over Ford or Jackson

JAPAN IS SAME TIMEZONE AS AUSTRALIA'S EAST COST

[hugonaut]

More than the usual amount of Peter O'Flattery going around.

He's a strong personality and all that, but it was a mediocre performance from him and all the fluffers and bluffers coming on and talking about 'unseen work' as a rebuttal to his p*ss-poor numbers [3 carries for 1 metre/1 tackle in 64 minutes] are, to be frank, complaining very much too much.

The game was on TV. There are 6-10 cameras there. We can see what he does. He's not the only Lions forward in mauls, or hitting rucks, or running off the ball, or competing in the air, or any of the supposed 'unseen work' that he's got the blackbelt in. All of them are doing 'unseen' work, and most of them were working harder and doing it more effectively than this chap.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I think that's very harsh. You've said yourself that selection is an art and not a science so you can't reduce it to stats like that. Warburton had poor stats the other day and I expected that, but Id be confident that POM would look good on a rewatch.

For a start, the pack looked good and well balanced. I didnt look at it and think they were missing much and their dominance backs that up. I think his breakdown work is top notch, his clear outs are brilliant and he makes a lot of them. He won a couple of lineouts and the set piece was generally excellent, not to be sniffed at in a team that needs that to compete against NZ. Plus there's the intangibles like the opposition keeping the ball away from him. Not many tackles alright but I remember one was a big play where he rushed up and shut down an overlap, so context is important too. Plus he plays wide, that's clearly a tactic and on a day like today that means he'll have less influence. I certainly noticed him offering himself up to take passes, not his fault he didn't get it. And I wouldn't play down the leadership element either, he had a chat with Peyper just before he gave the PT.

Not saying he had an amazing game, but thought he did well in a unit that performed better than it has in previous games and finally looked capable of taking on NZ. Just think you're being a bit reductive and overly harsh.

[kermischocolate]

I want the All Blacks to win now for 2 reasons

1. Theyre trying to score tries, Gatty's Lions trying to win penalties

2. I use this word guardedly but some of the (Welsh) call ups are a disgrace. Theyre largely tackle bag holders for training for 2 midweek games but not only has he blatantly picked Welsh guys hes picked peripheral guys largely to not mess too much with Wales test against Samoa. G Davies the scrumhalf is a legit call (Care close) but Dacey is behind Baldwin (and Hartley, the 2 Scottish hookers) and Baldwin is available, Francis is behind Lee (and arguably J Ryan, Mullan, Nel) but Lee is available. Cory Hill is behind more second rows than a number 8's arse. Not many coaches would take Finn Russell over Ford or Jackson

JAPAN IS SAME TIMEZONE AS AUSTRALIA'S EAST COST

Given the farce that is the Lions, Finn would be much better staying off with Scotland.

who is Cory Hill anyway??? Can't believe he gets a call up ahead of Ford, Launchbury, Gray(s) et al (yes I know they are different positions but you get my point).

Sooner the Lions debacle is over the better.

[matt]

More than the usual amount of Peter O'Flattery going around.

He's a strong personality and all that, but it was a mediocre performance from him and all the fluffers and bluffers coming on and talking about 'unseen work' as a rebuttal to his p*ss-poor numbers [3 carries for 1 metre/1 tackle in 64 minutes] are, to be frank, complaining very much too much.

The game was on TV. There are 6-10 cameras there. We can see what he does. He's not the only Lions forward in mauls, or hitting rucks, or running off the ball, or competing in the air, or any of the supposed 'unseen work' that he's got the blackbelt in. All of them are doing 'unseen' work, and most of them were working harder and doing it more effectively than this chap.

Very harsh. The pack as a unit worked well and POM like SOB, Itoje, Kruis and others did their jobs and more.

Don't like the 6 replacements on one level but can understand it on another. Garland clear he did not want any of test 23 playing midweek, if he can shut the smug Hansen up I think we can all put up with this

[Ruckedtobits]

As we near the climax of the hype, there has been nothing presented thus far by the Lions that constitutes evidence they will give the NZ team a serious contest, never mind beat them.

Today the superiority was marginal against a scratch team containing few, if any, current international selections. The Lions inability to convert line breaks to tries nullifies their capacity to win games without total dominance up front. They will not get that against the current NZ pack on the basis of performances to date.

The Lions scrum never was able to promote the right side of the scrum against either Maori Loose head. As Hugonaut has noted, the Lions captain on the day did very limited carrying or tackling. The second-rows are very competent and hard working but will be second best to Retallick and whichever partner he has. At present, Falatau is the sole Lion's forward who might make selection consideration for the opposition pack.

The mid-field of T'eo and Davies do not look like a partnership against competent players. They will have a very difficult job in containing the NZ mid-field next weekend. The Lions wingers and full-back will have a torrid day next Saturday and look out-of-form and uncertain in defensive positions.

This Tour is about money (for NZ Union) and hype for TV advertising spend. In both those areas it has been incredibly successful. The purported objective of pitting the combination of the Home Unions' best against the World Champions is flawed by the itinerary and the quality of the Coaching Staff. Next weekend will be a demonstration of the mismatch.

[cormac]

As we near the climax of the hype, there has been nothing presented thus far by the Lions that constitutes evidence they will give the NZ team a serious contest, never mind beat them.

Today the superiority was marginal against a scratch team containing few, if any, current international selections. The Lions inability to convert line breaks to tries nullifies their capacity to win games without total dominance up front. They will not get that against the current NZ pack on the basis of performances to date.

The Lions scrum never was able to promote the right side of the scrum against either Maori Loose head. As Hugonaut has noted, the Lions captain on the day did very limited carrying or tackling. The second-rows are very competent and hard working but will be second best to Retallick and whichever partner he has. At present, Falatau is the sole Lion's forward who might make selection consideration for the opposition pack.

The mid-field of T'eo and Davies do not look like a partnership against competent players. They will have a very difficult job in containing the NZ mid-field next weekend. The Lions wingers and full-back will have a torrid day next Saturday and look out-of-form and uncertain in defensive positions.

This Tour is about money (for NZ Union) and hype for TV advertising spend. In both those areas it has been incredibly successful. The purported objective of pitting the combination of the Home Unions' best against the World Champions is flawed by the itinerary and the quality of the Coaching Staff. Next weekend will be a demonstration of the mismatch.

Their superiority wasn't marginal yesterday. It's unlikely to be good enough to beat New Zealand but they dominated the Maori yesterday.

[simonokeeffe]

@Kerm & Matt Mr Cory Hill plays for the Dragons but him ahead of J Gray is batpoop. So is Dell ahead of Healy. AWJ is named as no20 for Tuesdays game so they shouldve called up a backrower and or plan is not to use AWJ either way one of the locks is doubling up this week

Know its my white whale but Davies is starting at 13 next Saturday when hes 4th or 5th best 13 in the squad, he runs good lines but whats the point when he carries it under one arm and doesnt even offload to make up for never passing/taking right option

[matt]

@Kerm & Matt Mr Cory Hill plays for the Dragons but him ahead of J Gray is batpoop. So is Dell ahead of Healy. AWJ is named as no20 for Tuesdays game so they shouldve called up a backrower and or plan is not to use AWJ either way one of the locks is doubling up this week

Know its my white whale but Davies is starting at 13 next Saturday when hes 4th or 5th best 13 in the squad, he runs good lines but whats the point when he carries it under one arm and doesnt even offload to make up for never passing/taking right option

Simon I agree with a lot of your points and think Healy, scannell and Jonny gray should be been called up instead of Dell, Dacey and Hill and Jack Conan should of been added as backrow cover. Not sure whether they would prefer to stay in Japan or join Lions for bench duty for 2 midweek games.

At same time support Gatland's position that you cannot expect replacements to play midweek risk injury and then play nz at weekend. We saw in 2005 how ruthless nz are and again in Lansdowne road last November and agree with Dallaglio in Sunday Times today that Lions need to assert themselves physically and not let nz take liberties. I think Kruis, Itoje, Faleteu, sob and Pom amongst others will not be found wanting in this respect and hope they give nz a good beating (literally), will be difficult to match their skills but if nz lose first test their media will turn on them.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

The biggest issue for me is that he clearly planned this a while ago. It's not like he needed players at short notice and grabbed whoever happened to be close. There's still 3 weeks left, plenty of time for others to join and potentially be of use for the second and third tests. Plenty of players (Healy and Jordi for example) slagging it off on twitter and I'd imagine lots of guys in camp are annoyed that better players/their mates weren't picked. Plus I wouldn't be happy if I was starting on Tuesday and got replaced by one of the newcomers who don't deserve to be there. Doesn't make sense on any level to me.

[Oldschool]

With the first test almost upon us it's appropriate to sumarise where the lions are at.
1. The lion obviously intend to beat the NZ pack up and limit the amount of possession NZ get.
2. NZ already realise that this tactic might work and have been trying to goad the lions out of their comfort zone.
Rope a dope.
This won't work because if the lions leave their comfort zone they will lose and the lions are aware of this.
Therefore win lose or draw there is no plan B that will work for the lions.
3. Defence is part of the lion's plan A.
Allied to this is the need for speed in the backs, particularly the back three.
4. Losing the wrong players to injury is probably the biggest risk facing the lions.
For example losing Hogg and his shear pace is a major setback. Farrell could be another serious setback.
Gattie needs to be a bit more discerning in the players he calls up. Mistakes here could be very damaging.
Brown is one such mistake.
5. Gattie is right about needing more cannon fodder.
And we don't want Irish players to be that fodder - We can't have it both ways.
6. World rugby needs a lions win.
Will NZ be allowed to brutalise the lions into submission?
Will the lions let them?
The referees will decide.

[simonokeeffe]

The biggest issue for me is that he clearly planned this a while ago. It's not like he needed players at short notice and grabbed whoever happened to be close. There's still 3 weeks left, plenty of time for others to join and potentially be of use for the second and third tests. Plenty of players (Healy and Jordi for example) slagging it off on twitter and I'd imagine lots of guys in camp are annoyed that better players/their mates weren't picked. Plus I wouldn't be happy if I was starting on Tuesday and got replaced by one of the newcomers who don't deserve to be there. Doesn't make sense on any level to me.

Also if theres 2 injuries and or suspensions in one of the front row positions do we get one of Dell, Dacey, or Francis on the bench in a pivotal test in NZ? Or do they call up real subs then?
Stranger things have happened, eg Cory Hill and Kristian Dacey getting Lions call ups

[Ruckedtobits]

With the first test almost upon us it's appropriate to sumarise where the lions are at.
1. The lion obviously intend to beat the NZ pack up and limit the amount of possession NZ get.
2. NZ already realise that this tactic might work and have been trying to goad the lions out of their comfort zone.
Rope a dope.
This won't work because if the lions leave their comfort zone they will lose and the lions are aware of this.
Therefore win lose or draw there is no plan B that will work for the lions.
3. Defence is part of the lion's plan A.
Allied to this is the need for speed in the backs, particularly the back three.
4. Losing the wrong players to injury is probably the biggest risk facing the lions.
For example losing Hogg and his shear pace is a major setback. Farrell could be another serious setback.
Gattie needs to be a bit more discerning in the players he calls up. Mistakes here could be very damaging.
Brown is one such mistake.
5. Gattie is right about needing more cannon fodder.
And we don't want Irish players to be that fodder - We can't have it both ways.
6. World rugby needs a lions win.
Will NZ be allowed to brutalise the lions into submission?
Will the lions let them?
The referees will decide.

Good analysis. But I don't agree. The referees will only ensure that the game is not decided by cheating, at which the NZ team are the best in the world.

NZ pack will not be subjugated by whatever pack the Lions select. If the Lions pick the wrong mid-field or back-row, NZ will score at least 30 points.

World rugby doesn't require a NH victory. England, Ireland and Scotland are ranked 2nd, 3rd, and 4th in World Rugby Ranking. World Rugby requires the continued recovery of SA, Aus and France. Wales are an irrelevance if the other three Home Nations continue to improve. Argentina have a clear focus on the World Cup, not the Rugby Championship.

The 2018 Six Nations will be a good contest. NZ will still be the totally dominant team but English power and Irish guile and possibly SA powere will be preparing for 2019.