The looking forward to the Lions Tour thread

[neiliog93]

Henderson provides a bit more ballast in the scrum than Lawes, and Henderson is also probably a more impactful ball carrier (although Lawes is a more forceful defender and more athletic in a general sense). Still, Henderson edges it for me. Kruis was poor against the ABs but he was better than AWJ and has had a good tour, so I'd give him a chance with Itoje as starting second rows, give the Saracens combo a chance to start, Henderson wearing the no.19 jersey.

1.M.Vunipola 2.George 3.Furlong

4.Itoje 5.Kruis

6.SOB 8.Faletau 7.Warburton

9.Murray 10.Sexton 12.Te'o 13.Davies 14.Watson

11.L.Williams (his errors less costly here, Daly was poor) 15.Halfpenny

16.Owens 17.McGrath 18.Sinckler 19.Henderson 20.Tipuric (more impact than POM, gives a loose option) 21.Webb 22.Farrell 23.Joseph

[dropkick]

I'd be reluctant to drop POM given that the lineout was one of the few success stories. Also think it's a bit disingenuous not to mention that he made 13 tackles (in 57 minutes) considering he was criticised for that last week.

And they were well in it when POM was on the pitch.


The main problem for me was players making simple mistakes. Kruis deserved to start but he had one of those games when nothing went right. A bunch of others coughed up possession easily.


I don't think adding extra physicality as some suggested will do much when the problem is more technical. NZ are not running into players but into gaps which is different than what we're used to seeing with Irish teams.


NZ made few mistakes when in possession and always had the Lions defence stretched which ment they could dictate the breakdown which ment fast ball to and continue the cycle.

Not sure many changes are necessary

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Hadnt really noticed the Murray treatment on Saturday but just saw a clip that was really bad, could have done serious damage.

[ronk]

Watching 1st half again. Aside from a few spells I though the Lions generally did more and they certainly had the better chances. NZ did their part with excellent scramble.

Some very close calls on knock ons, some knock ons and a few silly penalties. NZ we're really dangerous when they could string phases of quick ball together but the Lions were more undone by panic and concentration.

One sequence on 38 minutes had first Farrell and then Te'o get over the gainline and free to offload but with support far to far away to consider it. POM had an opportunity but didn't look for it (wouldn't have been support either.

I think it was 3 times in the first half that Daly received the ball with less than 5m to the touch line and defenders in position. He did okay but it was easy to defend.

Te'o missed chances to pass too. Kreisler got badly isolated on 39 minutes and gave away a penalty. Murray gave away a lazy and unnecessary offside that piled on more pressure.

This was a missed win, but it was missed in the first half and almost inevitable in the 2nd.

[jimbobjoe]

Hadnt really noticed the Murray treatment on Saturday but just saw a clip that was really bad, could have done serious damage.

Same. Kaino diving shoulder first into his knee is pretty inexcusable - Murray needs to get noisy about it (on field) because no one else is.

[kermischocolate]

Hadnt really noticed the Murray treatment on Saturday but just saw a clip that was really bad, could have done serious damage.

Same. Kaino diving shoulder first into his knee is pretty inexcusable - Murray needs to get noisy about it (on field) because no one else is.

Or his forwards need to do their job and protect him? Radical idea, I know.

[cormac]

f%~k it anyway. Henshaw off injured.

[suisse]

Poor Reggie taking a sh!t load of abuse for having the temerity to suggest the Lions might be better off without POM

[simonokeeffe]

Gatty blames draw on Henderson's yellow card when Henderson shouldve been taken off at half time to keep him for the test, spoke afterwards about protecting the Welsh geography Lions from actually having to play

At least Lawes might get into test side but have a feeling AWJ's trench warfare in a world of Blitzkrieg will be maintained too

[Ruckedtobits]

Gatty blames draw on Henderson's yellow card when Henderson shouldve been taken off at half time to keep him for the test, spoke afterwards about protecting the Welsh geography Lions from actually having to play

At least Lawes might get into test side but have a feeling AWJ's trench warfare in a world of Blitzkrieg will be maintained too

In absolute terms, i.e. based on what was done when he's on the pitch, that game was lost by Tommy Seymour with two thoughtless pieces of play:
1. The Hurricanes winger beats him on the overlap for a try but Seymour makes no effort to tackle him at all and he touches down near the post, rather than right in the corner. Barett kicks convert;
2. Seymour, in scoring his second try, is in behind the defence over the line and not concentrating. He skids and falls and touches down 7 mtr for touchline, instead of under the posts. Biggar misses the convert and the margin is two less than it should be.

Four points thrown away in a drawn game.

Seymour did much well. His first try was set up by his great tackle on a Hurricanes player when Lions were 2 v 3 in defence. Laidlaw got the intercept directly from Seymours tackle and carried 55m, was then tackled but found Seymour steaming up in support and he scored from 40 m. Great work.

Henderson and Lawes were a fascinating watch but the most interesting aspect was wondering who had put a fire underneath the Lions forwards collectively. That's the first time we have seen Club-like ferocity at breakdown or in the carry and no Lions forward was lacking in aggression. Some were more effective than others and neither Marler nor Haskell will ever perform as strike runners. Even Cole, with whom I have been underwhelmed for a decade, looked strong and hungry and again performed for 80 minutes.

Kruis still doesn't look match fit or up to the pace the games are being played at. There is rarely a carry more than a metre beyond first contact. Unlike Henderson or Lawes, but very similar to Stander, it looks like he has lost, or run out of, leg drive, at the most important part of the season. Both of them were always willing, but rarely effective. Both need a long break from rugby to recharge batteries. Kruis in particular looks like he worked so hard to rehab his injury, that his battery is now unchargeable.

Hugly impressed with ability, attitude and execution of Biggar. He could have been wearing a Welsh Red jersey against England. Ditto for Tuparic.

North was improved from before and got much more involvement when he moved to centre for Henshaw's shoulder injury. He is still not the player he was and also needs a rest.

Laidlaw has got to have the worst and slowest pass of any Scottish scrum-half of the past two decades. Great rugby brain and fearless in defence but a liability to any outhalf taking the ball flat as any flanker can catch, and beat, the speed of his pass.

Overall, sloppy to have drawn this from 17 points ahead but certainly the reluctance to use the sub-standard bench and TMO interpretation of Henderson's clearout (Poite did not think it a penalty on first viewing - but TMO Ayoub insisted he have another look).

Not a disaster but Lions will consider it a lost opportunity. For me, Henderson, Best and Itoje go into team with Lawes and Tipuric on the bench. No AWJ, Warburton or Kruis anywhere. Neither would I have T'eo anywhere as Lions need to score tries and will only do it with teamwork. T'eo can't pass left to right and won't pass on majority of occasions. Not good enough for Lions 'team' - even if he makes most individual Mid-field breaks.

From the NZ perspective, I'd happily call up both of the Hurricanes centres to the Squad with a view to replacing Crotty. Savea should come back to the wing to replace Dagg who'll move to No 15.

[hugonaut]

Just read that Gatland said the backlash against his selection of the training Lions convinced him not to play them.

That's a fairly contemptible excuse - he had the opportunity to call up Cian Healy [instead of Dell], Dylan Hartley [instead of Dacey], Zander Fagerson [instead of Thomas Francis], Joe Launchbury/Jonny Gray [instead of Cory Hill], Chris Robshaw for the injured Ross Moriarty [who only left the tour after being unavailable for selection for four games in a row] and Keith Earls for the injured Stuart Hogg. No complaints about Finn Russell or Gareth Davies being called in, both good players.

Bringing those lads in would have been widely welcomed by people supporting the Lions, would have provided a real boost for the squad's abilities and would have increased competition. Instead he practically added an additional limit to the chances of a number of the orginally selected players by forcing them to play 80min matches four days before a test, did f*ck all to increase the abilities of the squad and p*ssed off a load of people, ranging from former Lions to most fans. It was a huge error in judgment in the first place and now he has compounded it.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Yeah Gatland has monumentally f%~ked this one up. Am I right in saying that nobody has been called up for injury since Haskell? He pointlessly brought in the planned guys but no other injury replacements since they got to NZ if I remember correctly..thats just weird. I would imagine the players who played today are royally pissed off and the guys who were called up can't exactly be feeling good about themselves or comfortable in the environment, must be an awful atmosphere. I foresee a lot of leaks from the camp now about people being unhappy.

So many of the negative predictions about Gatland before the tour have now come true...everyone seemed to expect it except for the powers that be. Heads should roll in my opinion.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

RTB I'd disagree about Kruis. He was excellent in the games before the first test (although haven't seen today's match properly yet) and I reckon that he just happened to have a bad game on Saturday and then backed that up today because he knew he was dropped. Must be very tough to get up for a sub appearance for the midweek team after you've f%~ked up your big chance in the test match.

[Dave Cahill]

Gatland has disgraced himself - there is no other word for it.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

For such a belligerent guy it's really strange that he's given in to the pressure, surely there must have been a row with the blazers or something? Or maybe even the players?

[Dave Cahill]

For such a belligerent guy it's really strange that he's given in to the pressure, surely there must have been a row with the blazers or something? Or maybe even the players?

I don't think so, I think hes just being pig ignorant - 'you didn't like the players I called up? Fine then I won't play them and we won't win and its all your fault so nyah'

[paddyor]

For such a belligerent guy it's really strange that he's given in to the pressure, surely there must have been a row with the blazers or something? Or maybe even the players?

Not at all. He's never bowed to selection pressure before and he's older now (less likely to change his ways). I bet he got his call-ups (Hill and Dacey in particular) on the pitch with the rest of the squad and the penny dropped. They were going to disgrace themselves even if they only played for 5 minutes.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

But those lads trained with them when they were in camp before travelling didn't they? And he'd have know the Welsh lads anyway.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

For such a belligerent guy it's really strange that he's given in to the pressure, surely there must have been a row with the blazers or something? Or maybe even the players?

I don't think so, I think hes just being pig ignorant - 'you didn't like the players I called up? Fine then I won't play them and we won't win and its all your fault so nyah'

Now that I think of it, he did say from the start that they were just brought in to sit on the bench. Utterly ridiculous whatever the reasoning, we've now had two midweek games with those guys on the bench and still have 11 days and two tests to go, plenty of time for others to have been called in and played a part in the last test at least.

[OTT]

I think it is an abuse on the players who started. The whole front row should have felt like they were playing for a bench spot the way the bench went on Saturday. The two second rows should have felt they were playing for a start/sub spot the way the locks went on Saturday. Gatland has gone and flogged them, he has gone on about protecting players which is why he brought in the 6 randomers (harsh on Russell and Davies but tarred by association) and he has gone and flogged the guys who are meant to be creating the competition in the squad in this make or break week. Bloody stupid. I did not see the game this morning will flick through it tonight but by all accounts what I have read both Lawes (I obviously acknowledge he was substituted) and Henderson should have been in cotton wool after 50mins how well they played. Sad.