The looking forward to the Lions Tour thread

[Sionnach]

That moved pleasantly quickly

But it took a 3-hour Hearing. Clearly, some contenious issue.

Perhaps not. SBW pleaded guilty and his took 90 minutes - presumably pleading innocent is going to add quite a bit of time even in the simplest cases.

[paddyor]

I expect the All Blacks to exhibit the same outright, focused, targeted and premeditated thuggery that they did in the Aviva.

First red card in 50 years Dave!

Show Spoiler:

[paddyor]

First red card in 50 years

Show Spoiler:

[paddyor]

First red ...etc

Show Spoiler:

[paddyor]

etc.

Show Spoiler:

[Ruckedtobits]

Some great shots!

However, a million years ago there was a newsreel piece of the Canterbury v Lions (1971) which was a complete travesty. Lions lost at lest Ray McGloughlin, and his fellow Scottish prop Sandy Carmichael, and also Mick Hipwell from the Test team four days later.

Any chance of finding some of that coverage?

[simonokeeffe]

Is Paddy O'Brien still SANZAR ref tsar?

Chapeau btw Limecat

[Fan with smartphone]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bDX-8w91pnU

The game has changed a fair bit since that one.

Saw a stat somewhere, and now can't find it, about how South Africa give away like 6 penalties for every yellow, but for New Zealand it's more like 12 or something. Maybe I'm wrong on that, and it's not definitive proof of anything in any case, just interesting.

Seanie O'Brien will be relieved to have escaped a ban, especially when he remembers his last citing where he was suspended after France in the RWC for very little. But his tackle was nothing like November. In that game, possibly the 3rd worst tackle was Dagg on Stander. On reflection it might have actually been the fourth or fifth worst. Stander failed the HIA from it anyway. That tackle was a lot like Sonny Bill's. I think Peyper gave a penalty in November. In the test at the weekend Sonny Bill's tackle was the worst in the game, probably ahead of Vunipola's very poor clearout. Seanie was down the list. It was probably a yellow for not having due care and attention, but that's it. I didn't even pick up on it at the time. When I saw Fekitoa's I thought: that's red. Same with Sonny Billl and same when Jamie Heaslip lost the bap and started shoeing an offside Richie McCaw.

I don't expect thuggery at the weekend. I don't believe New Zealand had an orchestrated tactic of "take them out of it" in November. I do believe they had an orchestrated tactic to give away penalties in the red zone, but that's another matter. I also believe they came out determined to hit hard and often,which spilled over to (mostly) a breakdown in technique, which the referee failed to deal with adequately. You have little choice but to trust the referee though and I reckon it will require absolute focus and discipline to win this game, for either side. I expect to see that from New Zealand. You'd also think that's the message from the lions' coaching staff after they nearly shots themselves in both feet and kicked themselves in the balls last week with penalties.

That said, neither side will accept being bullied. So if one of them decides it is gonna cut up rough, it will cut up very rough indeed.

[hugonaut]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bDX-8w91pnU

The game has changed a fair bit since that one.

Saw a stat somewhere, and now can't find it, about how South Africa give away like 6 penalties for every yellow, but for New Zealand it's more like 12 or something. Maybe I'm wrong on that, and it's not definitive proof of anything in any case, just interesting.

Seanie O'Brien will be relieved to have escaped a ban, especially when he remembers his last citing where he was suspended after France in the RWC for very little. But his tackle was nothing like November. In that game, possibly the 3rd worst tackle was Dagg on Stander. On reflection it might have actually been the fourth or fifth worst. Stander failed the HIA from it anyway. That tackle was a lot like Sonny Bill's. I think Peyper gave a penalty in November. In the test at the weekend Sonny Bill's tackle was the worst in the game, probably ahead of Vunipola's very poor clearout. Seanie was down the list. It was probably a yellow for not having due care and attention, but that's it. I didn't even pick up on it at the time. When I saw Fekitoa's I thought: that's red. Same with Sonny Billl and same when Jamie Heaslip lost the bap and started shoeing an offside Richie McCaw.

I don't expect thuggery at the weekend. I don't believe New Zealand had an orchestrated tactic of "take them out of it" in November. I do believe they had an orchestrated tactic to give away penalties in the red zone, but that's another matter. I also believe they came out determined to hit hard and often,which spilled over to (mostly) a breakdown in technique, which the referee failed to deal with adequately. You have little choice but to trust the referee though and I reckon it will require absolute focus and discipline to win this game, for either side. I expect to see that from New Zealand. You'd also think that's the message from the lions' coaching staff after they nearly shots themselves in both feet and kicked themselves in the balls last week with penalties.

That said, neither side will accept being bullied. So if one of them decides it is gonna cut up rough, it will cut up very rough indeed.

Here's the Dagg/Stander one, which I had completely forgotten about: https://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/watch-ho ... der-103576

I don't think it's quite as bad as the SBW hit on Watson [because he's stationary rather than charging in to deliver the 'king hit'], but Dagg does tuck the arm away so that he can hit him with the point of the shoulder. In retrospect, it probably should have been a yellow card. I don't see it as a red, but maybe it could have been.

Fekitoa's hit on Zebo [here: http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/i ... 29340.html ] was right at the top end of the high tackle spectrum, up there with Hoeata on Rob Kearney [here: http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/g ... 97323.html ], which was brutal.

Personally speaking – and this is just an opinion – I think that Peyper is a ref who is only going to give a red card for something that he sees as 'outside' the game. If you're caught eye-gouging, biting, kicking somebody in the head, or maybe punching/elbowing/kneeing somebody when they're prone, then I could see him giving a red. Otherwise, I think he's got a bit of referred toughness: wanting to be seen by his fellow South Africans as a guy who likes the game the way they do, an aggressive physical contest where it's mano-a-mano, collisions are prized and the only real no-nos are the things that would have got you sent off in the seventies.

Maybe it's not that he wants to be seen as a tough guy – maybe it's just his genuine take on the game. He's out of step though, and it's a little surprising that he's right up there at the top of the refereeing schedule.

[Oldschool]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bDX-8w91pnU

The game has changed a fair bit since that one.

Saw a stat somewhere, and now can't find it, about how South Africa give away like 6 penalties for every yellow, but for New Zealand it's more like 12 or something. Maybe I'm wrong on that, and it's not definitive proof of anything in any case, just interesting.

Seanie O'Brien will be relieved to have escaped a ban, especially when he remembers his last citing where he was suspended after France in the RWC for very little. But his tackle was nothing like November. In that game, possibly the 3rd worst tackle was Dagg on Stander. On reflection it might have actually been the fourth or fifth worst. Stander failed the HIA from it anyway. That tackle was a lot like Sonny Bill's. I think Peyper gave a penalty in November. In the test at the weekend Sonny Bill's tackle was the worst in the game, probably ahead of Vunipola's very poor clearout. Seanie was down the list. It was probably a yellow for not having due care and attention, but that's it. I didn't even pick up on it at the time. When I saw Fekitoa's I thought: that's red. Same with Sonny Billl and same when Jamie Heaslip lost the bap and started shoeing an offside Richie McCaw.

I don't expect thuggery at the weekend. I don't believe New Zealand had an orchestrated tactic of "take them out of it" in November. I do believe they had an orchestrated tactic to give away penalties in the red zone, but that's another matter. I also believe they came out determined to hit hard and often,which spilled over to (mostly) a breakdown in technique, which the referee failed to deal with adequately. You have little choice but to trust the referee though and I reckon it will require absolute focus and discipline to win this game, for either side. I expect to see that from New Zealand. You'd also think that's the message from the lions' coaching staff after they nearly shots themselves in both feet and kicked themselves in the balls last week with penalties.

That said, neither side will accept being bullied. So if one of them decides it is gonna cut up rough, it will cut up very rough indeed.

Here's the Dagg/Stander one, which I had completely forgotten about: https://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/watch-ho ... der-103576

I don't think it's quite as bad as the SBW hit on Watson [because he's stationary rather than charging in to deliver the 'king hit'], but Dagg does tuck the arm away so that he can hit him with the point of the shoulder. In retrospect, it probably should have been a yellow card. I don't see it as a red, but maybe it could have been.

Fekitoa's hit on Zebo [here: http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/i ... 29340.html ] was right at the top end of the high tackle spectrum, up there with Hoeata on Rob Kearney [here: http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/g ... 97323.html ], which was brutal.

Personally speaking – and this is just an opinion – I think that Peyper is a ref who is only going to give a red card for something that he sees as 'outside' the game. If you're caught eye-gouging, biting, kicking somebody in the head, or maybe punching/elbowing/kneeing somebody when they're prone, then I could see him giving a red. Otherwise, I think he's got a bit of referred toughness: wanting to be seen by his fellow South Africans as a guy who likes the game the way they do, an aggressive physical contest where it's mano-a-mano, collisions are prized and the only real no-nos are the things that would have got you sent off in the seventies.

Maybe it's not that he wants to be seen as a tough guy – maybe it's just his genuine take on the game. He's out of step though, and it's a little surprising that he's right up there at the top of the refereeing schedule.

You have to wonder tho', what is Alain Roland's role in terms of direction to referees regarding mano's impact on player health.
Someday and maybe not too far away a player is going to sue a referee.
Orchestration can simply be the coach/senior players sending a certain message and individual players interpreting the message differently - the message shouldn't be sent in the first place and that is on the coach in particular. The best (worst) example of it is BOD in first lions test in NZ - An unforgiveable, horrendous act of violence with no regard for player safety whatsoever.
When NZ came to the Aviva, it was win at all costs and the level of violence went up as a result.
However that doesn't absolve the referee on the day making sure that, that approach will lose you a game.

[Ruckedtobits]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bDX-8w91pnU

The game has changed a fair bit since that one.

Saw a stat somewhere, and now can't find it, about how South Africa give away like 6 penalties for every yellow, but for New Zealand it's more like 12 or something. Maybe I'm wrong on that, and it's not definitive proof of anything in any case, just interesting.

Seanie O'Brien will be relieved to have escaped a ban, especially when he remembers his last citing where he was suspended after France in the RWC for very little. But his tackle was nothing like November. In that game, possibly the 3rd worst tackle was Dagg on Stander. On reflection it might have actually been the fourth or fifth worst. Stander failed the HIA from it anyway. That tackle was a lot like Sonny Bill's. I think Peyper gave a penalty in November. In the test at the weekend Sonny Bill's tackle was the worst in the game, probably ahead of Vunipola's very poor clearout. Seanie was down the list. It was probably a yellow for not having due care and attention, but that's it. I didn't even pick up on it at the time. When I saw Fekitoa's I thought: that's red. Same with Sonny Billl and same when Jamie Heaslip lost the bap and started shoeing an offside Richie McCaw.

I don't expect thuggery at the weekend. I don't believe New Zealand had an orchestrated tactic of "take them out of it" in November. I do believe they had an orchestrated tactic to give away penalties in the red zone, but that's another matter. I also believe they came out determined to hit hard and often,which spilled over to (mostly) a breakdown in technique, which the referee failed to deal with adequately. You have little choice but to trust the referee though and I reckon it will require absolute focus and discipline to win this game, for either side. I expect to see that from New Zealand. You'd also think that's the message from the lions' coaching staff after they nearly shots themselves in both feet and kicked themselves in the balls last week with penalties.

That said, neither side will accept being bullied. So if one of them decides it is gonna cut up rough, it will cut up very rough indeed.

Here's the Dagg/Stander one, which I had completely forgotten about: https://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/watch-ho ... der-103576

I don't think it's quite as bad as the SBW hit on Watson [because he's stationary rather than charging in to deliver the 'king hit'], but Dagg does tuck the arm away so that he can hit him with the point of the shoulder. In retrospect, it probably should have been a yellow card. I don't see it as a red, but maybe it could have been.

Fekitoa's hit on Zebo [here: http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/i ... 29340.html ] was right at the top end of the high tackle spectrum, up there with Hoeata on Rob Kearney [here: http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/g ... 97323.html ], which was brutal.

Personally speaking – and this is just an opinion – I think that Peyper is a ref who is only going to give a red card for something that he sees as 'outside' the game. If you're caught eye-gouging, biting, kicking somebody in the head, or maybe punching/elbowing/kneeing somebody when they're prone, then I could see him giving a red. Otherwise, I think he's got a bit of referred toughness: wanting to be seen by his fellow South Africans as a guy who likes the game the way they do, an aggressive physical contest where it's mano-a-mano, collisions are prized and the only real no-nos are the things that would have got you sent off in the seventies.

Maybe it's not that he wants to be seen as a tough guy – maybe it's just his genuine take on the game. He's out of step though, and it's a little surprising that he's right up there at the top of the refereeing schedule.

+1.

Good post and probably a good insight. Peyper is certainly a referee who appears not to want to diminish risk to players in the same way that all three top French referees have applied the new interpretations.

Certainly believe that yet again next Saturday, a French referee will have a significant part to play in the outcome

[bamboozle]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bDX-8w91pnU

The game has changed a fair bit since that one.

Saw a stat somewhere, and now can't find it, about how South Africa give away like 6 penalties for every yellow, but for New Zealand it's more like 12 or something. Maybe I'm wrong on that, and it's not definitive proof of anything in any case, just interesting.

Seanie O'Brien will be relieved to have escaped a ban, especially when he remembers his last citing where he was suspended after France in the RWC for very little. But his tackle was nothing like November. In that game, possibly the 3rd worst tackle was Dagg on Stander. On reflection it might have actually been the fourth or fifth worst. Stander failed the HIA from it anyway. That tackle was a lot like Sonny Bill's. I think Peyper gave a penalty in November. In the test at the weekend Sonny Bill's tackle was the worst in the game, probably ahead of Vunipola's very poor clearout. Seanie was down the list. It was probably a yellow for not having due care and attention, but that's it. I didn't even pick up on it at the time. When I saw Fekitoa's I thought: that's red. Same with Sonny Billl and same when Jamie Heaslip lost the bap and started shoeing an offside Richie McCaw.

I don't expect thuggery at the weekend. I don't believe New Zealand had an orchestrated tactic of "take them out of it" in November. I do believe they had an orchestrated tactic to give away penalties in the red zone, but that's another matter. I also believe they came out determined to hit hard and often,which spilled over to (mostly) a breakdown in technique, which the referee failed to deal with adequately. You have little choice but to trust the referee though and I reckon it will require absolute focus and discipline to win this game, for either side. I expect to see that from New Zealand. You'd also think that's the message from the lions' coaching staff after they nearly shots themselves in both feet and kicked themselves in the balls last week with penalties.

That said, neither side will accept being bullied. So if one of them decides it is gonna cut up rough, it will cut up very rough indeed.

For every 11 penalties South Africa gave away they got a yellow card.

For every 12 penalties Australia gave away they got a yellow card.

For every 43 penalties New Zealand gave away they got a yellow card.

http://rugbylad.com/crazy-stat-regardin ... ard-ratio/

Peyper showed in France v Ireland and Ireland v New Zealand he does not appear to consider more than a yellow card for cheap, vicious, late, dangers, high hits, whereas most other competent referees do. No surprise that Peyper was quite audible in the review of SBW's hit seeking for it to be downgraded from red 'no force, look at it again' (or words to that effect)

Also watching some of the 2nd test again, Sam Cane torpooed through 3 rucks headfirst, ok Mako's yellow was particularly dirty but if the ruck was being officiated correctly a number of NZ players would have been penalised especially in first test. Removal of the torpedo ruck clear out will instantly slow down NZ ruck ball.

The first 20 this weekend will be carnage, that's why I think its vital Jack starts at 1, to stabilise scrum, add double figures in tackles, add quality contesting at ruck time.

[wixfjord]

IIRC that stat turned out to be incorrect at the time because it was so dated.

[fourthirtythree]

IIRC that stat turned out to be incorrect at the time because it was so dated.

I thought the relevant stat these days is in general the tries they score per game and attacks from restarts. NZ give up their fair share of penalties and even yellow cards. And the management won't stop it unless they are not "good " penalties. Which is how successful teams usually approach this.

Which is why the restarts and defence were so heartening last weekend, but the discipline was not.

[Ruckedtobits]

So now the advantage of experience is handed to the Lions, at least in the backs. Hanson named a backline today of Barrett J; Savea; Lienart-Brown; Laumape; Hogg; Barrett B; Smith.

Two first starts and a return to the fold for Savea with Hogg being asked to mark Watson. By NZ standards this is not an attacking backline and Jordie Barrett has been called in to cover the errant place-kicking of his elder brother. Laumape will seek to skittle Sexton and Farrell rather than try any subtle offloads and Lienart-Brown will have the responsibility of coping with JJV Davies.

For me this selection is a clear declaration of blitzreig from the NZ pack whilst their backs nullify the occasional Lions forays from the backs.

[wixfjord]

When do you reckon the ABs will realise that the Lions have planted a Scottish spy amongst their outside backs?
Dagg I take it you mean instead of Hogg.

I'm intrigued by that selection, it either smacks of a bit of panic or serious confidence in two guys with very little experience. Laumape particularly looks like he can be gotten at by smart running lines and good gainline passing. We've two guys who can make that happen at 10/12.

I'd absolutely love to see the Lions try one of those Schmidt style outside to inside moves around Laumape/ALB (like the Healy try in Bordeaux). Bring L Williams back in on a line and see if those two guys trust each other. Not sure if the Lions have it in the arsenal, but Sexton and Farrell can definitely get Laumape to bite and put guys through holes themselves.

[CiaranIrl]

No changes for Lions so.

[simonokeeffe]

No changes for Lions so.

was unlikely to be many but the Vunipola one smacks of Gatty having shall we say entrenched opinions

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Because he went to school in Wales?

From a biased point of view I feel sorry for the Irish guys not picked. Best had a great tour after a rocky start, Henderson was the same and he would have deserved a bench spot, and POM being left out entirely after being captain in the first test must be a tough one to take.

No complaints about the selection though really. I suppose there aren't many talking points about the selection but still strange that there isn't more buzz about the game.

[fourthirtythree]

I wouldn't have Vunipola in the 23. I get dropping O'Mahony, Lions lost the first test at the Breakdown above all else, its harsh but sensible. They won the second despite Vunipola. NZ wouldn't tolerate that level of shitness.