Irish Depth Chart October 2016

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Re: Irish Depth Chart October 2016

Postby matt » December 18th, 2016, 5:10 pm

Two months ago did not think we had enough back up for Rory Best in case of injury etc.

Very impressed with the hookers yesterday Cronin mom in all action display, Tracy very good when he came on, Niall Scannell line out throwing, scrums and work around the field excellent, and Tom Mc Cartney while not his best game gives more options from next year.
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Re: Irish Depth Chart October 2016

Postby Ruckedtobits » December 19th, 2016, 11:37 pm

Will wait until 31st Dec selections and Irish Squad attendees before finalising depth chart update. Injury updates also now becoming relevant.
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Re: Irish Depth Chart Updated - 31st December 2016

Postby Ruckedtobits » January 1st, 2017, 4:58 pm

Updated at 31st December 2016

Big thanks to @johng and @limecat for their assistance with the template

Please note the criteria for the Listings:
1. Players may only be included once on the list
2. The list is a National Depth Chart related to the requirements of the National Team. However, I have listed players only in positions in which they have played.
3. Players are listed at the highest level possible in a suitable position.
3. Listing is based on performances since 1st October 2016. i.e. includes four rounds of EPCR and Autumn Internationals and other Pro12, Premiership & Top 14.
4. The overall selection is personal choice based on games attended or viewed i.e. does not including Training Sessions.

Once again this listing only goes down to four levels, and only includes players considered capable at present of playing international rugby.

Ireland XV Depth Chart - 31st Dec 2016
[b]First XV           2nd XV          3rd XV          4th XV [/b]

15. R. Kearney T O'Halloran A. Conway C Kelleher
14. A Trimble D Sweetnam N Adelolokun A. Byrne
13. G Ringrose J Payne R. O'Loughlin L Marshall
12. R Henshaw R Scannell S McCloskey N Reid
11. S Zebo K Earls M Healy R. O'Mahony
10. J Sexton J Carbery P Jackson I Madigan
9. C Murray K Marmion L McGrath J Cooney
8. J Heaslip J Conan J O'Donoghue J Muldoon
7. S O'Brien J V der Flyer T O'Donnell Jordi Murphy
6. CJ Stander P O'Mahony D Leavy S. O'Brien II
5. D Toner U Dillane B Holland R. Molony
4. Donn Ryan I Henderson Q Roux I Nagle
3. T Furlong F Bealham M Moore J Ryan
2. R Best S Cronin N Scannel J Treacy
1. J McGrath C Healy D Buckley D Kilcoyne


Commentary on Selections

It may seem pretty straightforward, but there's lots of debate about many positions:

15.
Essentially, there are three real contenders for this positioon, Kearney, Zebo and Payne. However, IMO, Zebo is our best left winger by a distance and playing with Kearney provides him with a level of positional game management which is essENtial for Ireland. Payne may have more attacking flair than Kearney but does not provide the degree of security in fielding ability which is essential at the 6N.

14.
Andrew Trimble repels all invaders with his form in an Irish jersey in which he seems to demonstrate the full range of his ability and temperament.

13.
Gary Ringrose shades Jaryd Payne by a whisker, but no argument that it is still a close call. Improving game by game and a little edge in his attacking play.

12.
One of four positions in which there are few arguments, but the progress of Rory Scannell is exciting and he is be one of the finds of the 2016 year.

11.
Despite some howls from down south, IMO Zebo is a real threat on the left wing and a probable Lion in this position. Earls needs a run of games without injury.

10.
Sexton still prevails, despite his injury woes, but the depth of Carbery and Jackson is very encouraging. Jackson has not progressed, or even maintained his form from SA, but Carbery offers attacking threats every time he is in possession. A very strong position at present.

9.
The second position where there is little or no debate because of the imperious form of Conor Murray. Ireland's most important player IMO.

8.
Heaslip has had a wonderful second half of the year and remains in pole position as the arch competitor, internationally, in this shirt.

7.
Few would have believed a year ago that there would be any debate about whether a fit Sean O'Brien should keep the No 7 shirt. But Josh Van der Flier has made an enormous impact when playing and there is a case to be made that Schmidt will select between them on a game by game basis, depending on who we're playing

6.
CJ is now nationally identified by just his initials and CJ - MOTM has almost become the motif of Thomond Park. Dominant in the role and has considerably reduced the argument for the use of Iain Henderson in this position.

5.
The third position in the team where there is almost no argument about Toner's tenancy on the jersey. Dev has grown at international level to a point where every opposition must plan for his presence, inside and outside the lineout.

4.
Some debate about the selection here with some feeling that Henderson offers more potential. But Donnchadh Ryan's contributions in Red and Green have been back to the levels which saw him selected in the 6N team of the Championship eight years ago. A tough, hard and skillful player, back to his best in a green jersey and well capable of playing 80 minutes when needed.

3.
Mike Ross's injury certainly created an opportunity which has been grabbed with both hands by Tadgh Furlong. Few who watched him closely in the JWC in South Africa beside Henderson and Hanrahan, doubted that he would graduate eventually to a full green jersey. Not many considered he would do it this quickly or with such an immediate impact. A full 6N tournament, without injury, will make him a strong Lions contender. Bealham is progressing well and Marty Moore may well continue his development to ensure Ireland remain strong in this position.

2.
Best has matured into an important Captain who is well ahead of his contenders at scrum time and less lightly to get the yips with his throwing. But it his work at the breakdown which has been most evident over the past 12 months and only injury could prevent him from touring to NZ.

1.
IMO, the fourth position in which there will be minimal argument about this selection. McGrath has demonstrated his skill and durability in every game he has played and has not yet reached his prime. European and 6N games ahead will show his improved ball carrying is rapidly catching up to his scrum expertise. Cian Healy a wonderful impact LHP to have on the bench.


Unavailable and Injured

MIke Ross was the main omission due to injury although neither McFadden or Dave Kearney were considered for the same reason. Stuart Olding had minimal game time during the three months and may have commanded a posigtion with more exposure. Tommy Bowe was considered but his performances left him out of the top four selections on the right wing.
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Re: Irish Depth Chart October 2016

Postby Peg Leg » January 1st, 2017, 11:37 pm

Brilliant post RTB, you address almost every nit I wanted to pick in the post list assessment. That said I would argue that SO'B is our best 6, josh our best 7 by a long shot and stander is edging closer to heaslip. SO'B is 2 parts wonderful 1 part liability but..... Yes I'd take your first choice back row.
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Re: Irish Depth Chart October 2016

Postby Ruckedtobits » January 2nd, 2017, 11:35 am

Thanks @Peg Leg.

Interestingly, totting up the Provincial numbers among the Players in this depth chart produces a surprising summary:

Leinster 23; Munster 17; Connacht 11; Ulster 7; Exiles 2

Ulster have fallen a long way back and Connacht's development is stunning. Admittedly, Ulster have a number of players who've had injuries - Bowe, Olding, Gilroy, Henry to name a few - but their development of forwards leaves them well off the pace. They will be hoping that Treadwell and Herring come through strongly to join Best and Henderson as front liners. They really need to acquire a front-rank IQ No 8 and IMO Copeland would get much more valuable gametime with them than with Munster.
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Re: Irish Depth Chart October 2016

Postby erskinechilders » January 8th, 2017, 4:56 pm

Anyone else think Niall Scannell is a better hooker than Tracy? His throwing is rock solid whereas Tracy always seems to under throw the ball and as a result the line out is always leaky enough with him!
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Re: Irish Depth Chart October 2016

Postby Ruckedtobits » January 8th, 2017, 5:00 pm

erskinechilders wrote:Anyone else think Niall Scannell is a better hooker than Tracy? His throwing is rock solid whereas Tracy always seems to under throw the ball and as a result the line out is always leaky enough with him!


His throwing, combined with his scrum power are the reasons I have him knocking on Cronin's door at this point. Treacy's key attributes are scrum and tackling with ball carrying a good addition. However, finding jumpers like O'Mahony and Ryan, at the very top of their jump, is no easy task but fulfilled regularly by Scannell.
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Re: Irish Depth Chart October 2016

Postby simonokeeffe » January 8th, 2017, 10:59 pm

Ruckedtobits wrote:
erskinechilders wrote:Anyone else think Niall Scannell is a better hooker than Tracy? His throwing is rock solid whereas Tracy always seems to under throw the ball and as a result the line out is always leaky enough with him!


His throwing, combined with his scrum power are the reasons I have him knocking on Cronin's door at this point. Treacy's key attributes are scrum and tackling with ball carrying a good addition. However, finding jumpers like O'Mahony and Ryan, at the very top of their jump, is no easy task but fulfilled regularly by Scannell.


dont think its your point but POM is a world class lineout operator

Now that Im thinking about it Cronin is only ahead of Scannell on experience, can see Scannell overtaking him on the summer but not before then
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
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Re: Irish Depth Chart October 2016

Postby dropkick » January 8th, 2017, 11:06 pm

Both Scannell and Tracy look talented with a lot of good attributes. It's no surprise to see Scannell jump ahead of Tracy now. He has been playing regularly this season and hooker is one of those positions where experience counts for a lot. You can see him improve and look more comfortable as the season has gone on.

Tracy needs a run of games and if Cronin is injured might now get a run especially with a settled lineup.
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Re: Irish Depth Chart October 2016

Postby Gearzbox2 » January 9th, 2017, 11:35 am

simonokeeffe wrote:
Ruckedtobits wrote:
erskinechilders wrote:Anyone else think Niall Scannell is a better hooker than Tracy? His throwing is rock solid whereas Tracy always seems to under throw the ball and as a result the line out is always leaky enough with him!


His throwing, combined with his scrum power are the reasons I have him knocking on Cronin's door at this point. Treacy's key attributes are scrum and tackling with ball carrying a good addition. However, finding jumpers like O'Mahony and Ryan, at the very top of their jump, is no easy task but fulfilled regularly by Scannell.


dont think its your point but POM is a world class lineout operator

Now that Im thinking about it Cronin is only ahead of Scannell on experience, can see Scannell overtaking him on the summer but not before then


Cronin has been playing well all season, that's why he's ahead of Scannell, plain and simple
Few good games from any hooker in Ireland and people throw Cronin on the scrap heap...it's comical
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Re: Irish Depth Chart October 2016

Postby Golf Man » January 9th, 2017, 4:32 pm

In fairness I don't think anyone ever threw Cronin on the scrap heap - and Scannel has more than a few good games - he was very good last year and has been excellent this season with 16 appearances - that said Best is a mile ahead of everyone else obviously and Cronin is still well ahead of the alternatives

There is a spot open on the squad for a hooker - Strauss is essentially done and Herring isn't a viable option at the moment - I think Scannell deserves his shot - he is not an all action hooker but his basics have been better than anyones this year - a huge help in the resurgence in the Munster scrum as well

That said Tracey is likley to start the next two games for Leinster - big chance for him
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Re: Irish Depth Chart October 2016

Postby Golf Man » January 9th, 2017, 4:47 pm

BTW on that depth chart - couple of obvious ones

Kearney Jordi Murphy and Payne argubaly shouldn't have been included
Zebo surely ahead of Kearney now?
Payne is still ahead of Ringrose imo - albeit I would pick Ringrose now
John Ryan ahead of Moore - and probably getting close to challenging Bealham
Kilcoyne ahead of Buckley for definite
Henderson ahead of Ryan - although Ryan was outstanding on Saturday
Jackson is still substantially ahead of Carberry
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Re: Irish Depth Chart October 2016

Postby arsebiscuits1 » January 11th, 2017, 2:51 pm

No love for Rhys Ruddock?

I know he's in limbo between not quite backrow not quite second row. But I'd have him at 6 ahead of SOB2 and knocking on Leavys door. And I'd have little between him, Mul and JOD for 8
He's gotten awfully fond of that brick
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Re: Irish Depth Chart October 2016

Postby Golf Man » January 11th, 2017, 3:52 pm

Fair point actually - his stock has really dropped though - doesn't appear likelt to break into the Leinster 23 this year - and arguably is 5th choice backrower - and thats with Jordi Murphy out. Hasn't really kicked on as it looked like he would. Couple of these guys will/should probably leave Leinster - Ruddock has enough of a record/pedigree to get a really good move - Dom Ryan not so much => with Heaslip continuing on and VDF/Leavy/Conan emergence - might be the right time to leave - Leinster could probably do with more in the second row and freeing up some space would help
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Re: Irish Depth Chart October 2016

Postby Ruckedtobits » January 11th, 2017, 7:02 pm

Re contributions from @GolfMan and @arsebiscuits1, the four criteria for the compilation are listed at the top of that Chart. The key point is probably the period under review i.e. 1st October to 31st December. Even though some players are now out of play due to injuries, they had performances during the period which influenced the Rankings.

Rhys Ruddock has had an unfortunate run of injury and then the games in which he was selected. On the other hand SO'B II had some top notch performances against top quality opponents during the relevant period.

Explanations for my rankings of Zebo, Payne and Ringrose were already included and remain unchanged until the update post 6N series.

Standing over my relative ranking of Moore and Ryan although Ryan is certainly improving in his primary roles match by match and could jump two places if that continues.

Killer just doesn't scrummage well enough to bypass Buckley. I believe his relegation behind Cronin in Munster is clear proof of that. In addition, Killer can be a penalty machine from time to time.

Have a look at the very good article the Demented Mole Blog to get a picture of the relative ratings of second rows.

Finally, IMO, Jackson's performances have slipped since the standards he set in S Africa. Place kicking is now improved but his selection of attacking options has been affected by the constant changing of Ulster mid-field and the deterioration of ball quality their pack produce. Carbery has experienced exactly the opposite.

However, as they say on OTB,
it's only my opinion
".
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Re: Irish Depth Chart October 2016

Postby Golf Man » January 12th, 2017, 11:17 am

Ruckedtobits wrote:Re contributions from @GolfMan and @arsebiscuits1, the four criteria for the compilation are listed at the top of that Chart. The key point is probably the period under review i.e. 1st October to 31st December. Even though some players are now out of play due to injuries, they had performances during the period which influenced the Rankings.

Rhys Ruddock has had an unfortunate run of injury and then the games in which he was selected. On the other hand SO'B II had some top notch performances against top quality opponents during the relevant period.

Explanations for my rankings of Zebo, Payne and Ringrose were already included and remain unchanged until the update post 6N series.

Standing over my relative ranking of Moore and Ryan although Ryan is certainly improving in his primary roles match by match and could jump two places if that continues.

Killer just doesn't scrummage well enough to bypass Buckley. I believe his relegation behind Cronin in Munster is clear proof of that. In addition, Killer can be a penalty machine from time to time.

Have a look at the very good article the Demented Mole Blog to get a picture of the relative ratings of second rows.

Finally, IMO, Jackson's performances have slipped since the standards he set in S Africa. Place kicking is now improved but his selection of attacking options has been affected by the constant changing of Ulster mid-field and the deterioration of ball quality their pack produce. Carbery has experienced exactly the opposite.

However, as they say on OTB,
it's only my opinion
".


Obviously its an opinion thing and we all have them - still though some of the justifications are bit lopsided

Ruddock - explanation makes sense
Zebo - fair enough
Payne v Ringrose - bery very hard to claim that Ringrose was more impressive than Payne in teh time frame you are talking - Payne excelled in the Autumn series and is a real l eader - Ringrose stepped up incredibly well but Payne is still ahead of himn (obv injury has to come into play) - not like Ringrose has been sensational (just very good!)
Ryan v Moore - don't see a justification for Moore being ahead here - Wasps have been going well but their weak point - the scrum (have a lok at the fans forum) - Moore has a reall battle to be first choice there with a certain Jake Cooper Wooley -> Munster hgave been going well and the scrum has been one of their strongest points - Ryan has been absolutely central to that
Kilcoyne v Buckley - similiar to above - from memory Buckley was injured for a lot of the time line you are talking about. Munsters scrum has been a weapon - and you can't really dismiss Kilcoynes part in that (its not the strongest part of his game but it hasn't suffered this year) - while in open play he has been exceptional - I would have Healy ahead of him but Kilcoynes open field play has been better than Healys this past few months - and his scrummaging hasn't been a source of worry - btw Cronin hasn't taken over from him - Kilcoyne played far more than Cronin (including starting teh first three ECC games) - when they are both fit there isn't a first choice - they split game time
Carberry/Jackson - not a chance Carberry has been better - his performances have been very good, exceptional in light of his age and experience but Jackson is still on another level (and playing behind a pack in poor form unlike carberry)

BTW while the rankings appear to be based on a three month period you obviously take previous performances/standing into it (ie you mention Jackson not hitting the heights of South Africa) - is there any basis for the way you take stuff into consideration? For example in teh next one will Payne be out completely as he probably won't play?
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Re: Irish Depth Chart October 2016

Postby paddyor » January 12th, 2017, 11:37 am

I think Kilcoyne and Cronin have and will continue to suffer in the short term) from RWC winning Springbok BJ Bothas(© Stuart Barnes) reputation. He was on the wane for awhile before he got put out to pasture. They're left with the reputation for resets, penos and YCs, and IIRC Nigel Owens ommented a few years ago that refs take reputation into account (could have been subconsciously). I don't think Schmidt has ever trusted either of them up to now. It might change after this season, but I can see him sticking with his current choices thru the 6N.

Buckley from what I've read elsewhere is a bit of headbanger. Unless he's started to behave himself he won't be involved.
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Re: Irish Depth Chart October 2016

Postby FLIP » January 12th, 2017, 11:52 am

Carberry is the only Irish international to have a 100% success rate against the All Blacks in an Ireland shirt.
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Re: Irish Depth Chart October 2016

Postby Oldschool » January 12th, 2017, 12:03 pm

FLIP wrote:Carberry is the only Irish international to have a 100% success rate against the All Blacks in an Ireland shirt.

Long may it last.
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Re: Irish Depth Chart October 2016

Postby Oldschool » January 12th, 2017, 12:22 pm

Golf Man wrote:
Ruckedtobits wrote:Re contributions from @GolfMan and @arsebiscuits1, the four criteria for the compilation are listed at the top of that Chart. The key point is probably the period under review i.e. 1st October to 31st December. Even though some players are now out of play due to injuries, they had performances during the period which influenced the Rankings.

Rhys Ruddock has had an unfortunate run of injury and then the games in which he was selected. On the other hand SO'B II had some top notch performances against top quality opponents during the relevant period.

Explanations for my rankings of Zebo, Payne and Ringrose were already included and remain unchanged until the update post 6N series.

Standing over my relative ranking of Moore and Ryan although Ryan is certainly improving in his primary roles match by match and could jump two places if that continues.

Killer just doesn't scrummage well enough to bypass Buckley. I believe his relegation behind Cronin in Munster is clear proof of that. In addition, Killer can be a penalty machine from time to time.

Have a look at the very good article the Demented Mole Blog to get a picture of the relative ratings of second rows.

Finally, IMO, Jackson's performances have slipped since the standards he set in S Africa. Place kicking is now improved but his selection of attacking options has been affected by the constant changing of Ulster mid-field and the deterioration of ball quality their pack produce. Carbery has experienced exactly the opposite.

However, as they say on OTB,
it's only my opinion
".


Obviously its an opinion thing and we all have them - still though some of the justifications are bit lopsided

Ruddock - explanation makes sense
Zebo - fair enough
Payne v Ringrose - bery very hard to claim that Ringrose was more impressive than Payne in teh time frame you are talking - Payne excelled in the Autumn series and is a real l eader - Ringrose stepped up incredibly well but Payne is still ahead of himn (obv injury has to come into play) - not like Ringrose has been sensational (just very good!)
Ryan v Moore - don't see a justification for Moore being ahead here - Wasps have been going well but their weak point - the scrum (have a lok at the fans forum) - Moore has a reall battle to be first choice there with a certain Jake Cooper Wooley -> Munster hgave been going well and the scrum has been one of their strongest points - Ryan has been absolutely central to that
Kilcoyne v Buckley - similiar to above - from memory Buckley was injured for a lot of the time line you are talking about. Munsters scrum has been a weapon - and you can't really dismiss Kilcoynes part in that (its not the strongest part of his game but it hasn't suffered this year) - while in open play he has been exceptional - I would have Healy ahead of him but Kilcoynes open field play has been better than Healys this past few months - and his scrummaging hasn't been a source of worry - btw Cronin hasn't taken over from him - Kilcoyne played far more than Cronin (including starting teh first three ECC games) - when they are both fit there isn't a first choice - they split game time
Carberry/Jackson - not a chance Carberry has been better - his performances have been very good, exceptional in light of his age and experience but Jackson is still on another level (and playing behind a pack in poor form unlike carberry)

BTW while the rankings appear to be based on a three month period you obviously take previous performances/standing into it (ie you mention Jackson not hitting the heights of South Africa) - is there any basis for the way you take stuff into consideration? For example in teh next one will Payne be out completely as he probably won't play?

Have to say that RTB has done a brilliant job if that's all Gas Man can come up with.
Kilcoyn is doomed to always be fourth in the list.
Ryan has been very impressive this season.
Who is Munster's scrum coach btw?
Scannell's throwing is exceptional.
Fla should be asked to coach to do a throwing clinic for all our hookers - hope you're listening Joe.
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