Irish Depth Chart October 2016

[Ruckedtobits]

For my personal amusement, I have been compiling Depth Charts of Ireland teams for the past 5 years. If I had a proper Template to lay them out more legibly, I would do so. I have tended to update prior to Autumn Series and post 6 Nations and usually do it down to six teams. If anybody can assist with lay-out, assistance would be gratefully received

So, below is post Pro12 Final and pre-S African Tour. It looks OK on my screen in typing but I know that it will just look like a collection of names when submitted.

1st June 2016

First XV 2nd XV 3rd XV 4th XV
15, J Payne R Kearney S Zebo T O'Halloran
14. A Trimble C Gilroy T Bowe A Conway
13. R Henshaw G Ringrose D Cave R Scannell
12. L Marshall S Olding S McCloskey C Ronaldson
11. K Earls L Fitzgerald M Healy D Kearney
10. P Jackson J Sexton JJ Hanrahan I Madigan
9. C Murray E Reddan K Marmion J Cooney
8. J Heaslip Jordi Murphy J O'Donoghue J Conan +
7. J V der Flyer S O'Brien T O'Donnell C Henry
6. CJ Stander R Ruddock P O'Mahony Sean O'Brien II
5. D Toner U Dillane James Ryan Don Ryan
4. I Henderson Q Roux M Kearney M McCarthy
3. M Ross T Furlong F Bealham M Moore
2. R Best S Cronin R Strauss R Herring
1. J McGrath C Healy D Buckley A Porter

Update as at 27th Oct 2016 due shortly and may show a lot of movement.

[arsebiscuits1]

Lame attempt at HTML format. Please diregard this post

[johng]

For my personal amusement, I have been compiling Depth Charts of Ireland teams for the past 5 years. If I had a proper Template to lay them out more legibly, I would do so. I have tended to update prior to Autumn Series and post 6 Nations and usually do it down to six teams. If anybody can assist with lay-out, assistance would be gratefully received

So, below is post Pro12 Final and pre-S African Tour. It looks OK on my screen in typing but I know that it will just look like a collection of names when submitted.

1st June 2016

First XV	2nd XV	3rd XV 4th XV 
15, J Payne 		R Kearney		S Zebo		T O'Halloran
14. A Trimble  	        C Gilroy 		T Bowe		A Conway 
13. R Henshaw	        G Ringrose		D Cave		R Scannell
12. L Marshall		S Olding 		S McCloskey	C Ronaldson
11. K Earls 		L Fitzgerald 	M Healy 		D Kearney 
10. P Jackson 		J Sexton		JJ Hanrahan 	I Madigan
9. C Murray		E Reddan 		K Marmion		J Cooney 
8. J Heaslip		Jordi Murphy	J O'Donoghue	J Conan +
7. J V der Flyer	        S O'Brien		T O'Donnell	C Henry 
6. CJ Stander		R Ruddock 	P O'Mahony	Sean O'Brien II
5. D Toner		        U Dillane		James Ryan	Don Ryan
4. I Henderson	        Q Roux		M Kearney		M McCarthy
3. M Ross		        T Furlong		F Bealham 	M Moore 
2. R Best		        S Cronin 		R Strauss 		R Herring 
1. J McGrath		C Healy 		D Buckley		A Porter

Update as at 27th Oct 2016 due shortly and may show a lot of movement.

Just seeing this now. You can use

 tags like I have just done. (quote the post without submitting to see them) but you need to have the layout right before you start.

Limecat has better toys that he has used before.

[limecat]

#   First XV           2nd XV          3rd XV          4th XV
15. J Payne            R Kearney       S Zebo          T O'Halloran
14. A Trimble          C Gilroy        T Bowe          A Conway 
13. R Henshaw          G Ringrose      D Cave          R Scannell
12. L Marshall         S Olding        S McCloskey     C Ronaldson
11. K Earls            L Fitzgerald    M Healy         D Kearney 
10. P Jackson          J Sexton        JJ Hanrahan     I Madigan
9.  C Murray           E Reddan        K Marmion       J Cooney 
8.  J Heaslip          Jordi Murphy    J O'Donoghue    J Conan +
7.  J van der Flyer    S O'Brien       T O'Donnell     C Henry 
6.  CJ Stander         R Ruddock       P O'Mahony      Sean O'Brien II
5.  D Toner            U Dillane       James Ryan      Don Ryan
4.  I Henderson        Q Roux          M Kearney       M McCarthy
3.  M Ross             T Furlong       F Bealham       M Moore 
2.  R Best             S Cronin        R Strauss       R Herring 
1.  J McGrath          C Healy         D Buckley       A Porter

[johng]

OK. He has the same toys, but lines it up better.

[Ruckedtobits]

Update of Depth Chart (as at 1st Nov) promised before Leinster k.o. on Sat.

Thanks to johng and Limecat

[Ruckedtobits]

Ireland XV Depth Chart Updated to 1st November 2016 pre-Autumn Internationals.

Please note the essential basis of the Listings:
1. Players may only be included once on the list
2. Players are listed at the highest level possible in a suitable position.
3. Listing is based on performances since 20th May 2016. i.e. includes SF & Final of Pro12 and S African Tour, JWC 2016 and 2016-17 Season to date.
4. The overall selection is personal choice based on games attended or viewed i.e. does not including Training Sessions.

Big thanks to @johng and @limecat for their assistance with the template

Finally. my current listing goes down to eight selections, which is largely a function of our growing strength in depth. 5th to 8th levels are included as a separate Table.

Ireland XV Depth Chart - 1st Nov 2016]

#   First XV           2nd XV          3rd XV          4th XV
15. J Payne            T O'Halloran      R Kearney    C Kelleher 
14. A Trimble         N Adelolokun        D Sweetnam  T Bowe 
13. G Ringrose       L Marshall        C Farrell        D Cave
12. R Henshaw         S Olding        R Scannell      S McCloskey     
11. S Zebo             K Earls        M Healy         C Gilroy 
10. J Sexton          P Jackson        J Carbery      I Madigan
9.  C Murray           K Marmion       L McGrath      C Blade 
8.  J Heaslip          J Muldoon      J O'Donoghue    J Conan 
7.  S O'Brien        J van der Flyer    D Leavy       T O'Donnell 
6.  CJ Stander         R Ruddock       P O'Mahony     Jordi Murphy
5.  D Toner            U Dillane       Donn Ryan      A Muldowney
4.  I Henderson        Q Roux         B Holland       M McCarthy
3.  T Furlong          M Ross         M Moore         F Bealham 
2.  R Best             S Cronin        J Treacy       N Scannell 
1.  J McGrath          C Healy         D Buckley      D Kilcoyne

And now listings for Ireland XV Depth Chart - 1st Nov 2016 5th to 8th

#   5th XV          6th XV          7th XV          8th XV
15. A Conway      J Stockdale      P Nelson          D Leader
14. D Kearney      R O'Mahony        R Scholes      A Byrne 
13. R O'Loughlin     D Johnson      C O'Brien       T Daly
12. N Reid         C Ronaldson        P Robb        S Arnold
11. F McFadden    I Whitten       R Lyttle          H Keenan 
10. G Steenson     J Carty        B Johnson        I Keatley
9.  J Cooney        P Hart        N McCarthy        C Sheridan 
8.  R Copeland     E McKeon       E Masterson      M Deegan
7.  S Reidy        J Heenan       J Connolly       C Henry 
6.  S O'Brien II   R Diack       D O'Callaghan      Dom Ryan
5.  I Nagle        A O'Connor       R Molony      James Ryan
4.  M Kearney      A Browne         D Tuohy         M Flanagan
3.  J Ryan         R Ah you         M Bent         S Archer 
2.  D Heffernan     R Herring       R Strauss       D Casey 
1.  J Cronin        A Porter         P Dooley       C Black

Faces have disappeared and some new ones have arrived. Some have jumped to prominence and some have slipped off the chart.

Some of the most notable:

Retired: L Fitzgerald, E Reddan, N White, D McSharry, J Holland

New Arrivals J Carbery, D Leavy, D Sweetnam, R Scannell, J Treacy, C Blade, C Kelleher, N Scannell, A Muldowney (somewhat delayed)

Departures JJ Hanrahan, C Henry, I Boss, P Marshall

Clearly we have substantial depth in some positions but not all. There is also clear evidence of new faces coming through and receiving rapid exposure at a high level.

[CiaranIrl]

You have Kearney as third choice fullback, Adelolokun as second choice right wing, O'Mahony as third choice blindside flanker (behind Ruddock), Donncha Ryan behind Roux & Dillane, Jordi Murphy/Dave Kearney/Bowe so far down the list and one or two odd placements. Am I misunderstanding the lists, or is there a bit of your personal point of view in here?

[johng]

In fairness it is hard to place players on a chart that is constantly changing.

I did one of these a few years ago. Might be interesting to see how the names have changed. (Or not)

1/ http://forum.leinsterfans.com/viewtopic ... roject.+Pt

2/ http://forum.leinsterfans.com/viewtopic ... roject.+Pt

3/ http://forum.leinsterfans.com/viewtopic ... Pt#p556848

4/ http://forum.leinsterfans.com/viewtopic ... ject.+Pt+4

5/ http://forum.leinsterfans.com/viewtopic ... roject.+Pt

6/ http://forum.leinsterfans.com/viewtopic ... roject.+Pt

[Ruckedtobits]

You have Kearney as third choice fullback, Adelolokun as second choice right wing, O'Mahony as third choice blindside flanker (behind Ruddock), Donncha Ryan behind Roux & Dillane, Jordi Murphy/Dave Kearney/Bowe so far down the list and one or two odd placements. Am I misunderstanding the lists, or is there a bit of your personal point of view in here?

@CiaranIrl, yes this is a personal, subjective viewpoint, but, as far as possible based on the four criteria outlined at the top of the post. In each period under review, an attempt is made to rate players in each position on their performances in the timeframe, without reference to their experience or reputation but trying to take account of the quality of their opponents during that time.

My two biggest dilemmas in this ranking were:
A. Did O'Halloran deserve to being ranked No 1 ahead of Payne?; and
B. Had Leavy played against good enough opposition to put him ahead of Sean O'Brien and Josh VdF?

Re your queries on second-row ranking, I have strong belief in separate roles and skills of Tight-head and Loose-head second rows. IMO, Toner, Dillane & Ryan are all left-side (loose-head) second rows. Roux made a big difference to Connacht & Irish scrum in May / June and is ranked behind only Henderson.

The Blind-side flanker debate is live and very competitive. Possibly, had PO'M played as well against Leinster (after almost a year's absence) as he did this evening against Ospreys, he may have headed Ruddock. Jordi Murphy, IMO, gets selected to do specific things for his Coaches, but is neither fish nor fowl - definitely not an openside and not physical enough as a blindside.

Bowe and Kearney have been injured for large periods and have done little when available since last May to justify higher ranking. Adelolokun, in contrast, has taken every opportunity Pro12 & European, to push his case.

Each ranking gets a fair bit of thought and debate, particularly in areas of strength like back-row. There is constant movement and as @johng noted, it is difficult to keep such rankings up to speed constantly. There is no formula, this is ultimately opinion and subjective viewpoint.

[Ruckedtobits]

In fairness it is hard to place players on a chart that is constantly changing.

I did one of these a few years ago. Might be interesting to see how the names have changed. (Or not)

1/ http://forum.leinsterfans.com/viewtopic ... roject.+Pt

2/ http://forum.leinsterfans.com/viewtopic ... roject.+Pt

3/ http://forum.leinsterfans.com/viewtopic ... Pt#p556848

4/ http://forum.leinsterfans.com/viewtopic ... ject.+Pt+4

5/ http://forum.leinsterfans.com/viewtopic ... roject.+Pt

6/ http://forum.leinsterfans.com/viewtopic ... roject.+Pt

Just reviewed two so far. Glad to know there are others as fascinated with this stuff as me.

Will complete review and revert with comments.

[dropkick]

In fairness it is hard to place players on a chart that is constantly changing.

I did one of these a few years ago. Might be interesting to see how the names have changed. (Or not)

1/ http://forum.leinsterfans.com/viewtopic ... roject.+Pt

2/ http://forum.leinsterfans.com/viewtopic ... roject.+Pt

3/ http://forum.leinsterfans.com/viewtopic ... Pt#p556848

4/ http://forum.leinsterfans.com/viewtopic ... ject.+Pt+4

5/ http://forum.leinsterfans.com/viewtopic ... roject.+Pt

6/ http://forum.leinsterfans.com/viewtopic ... roject.+Pt

Cheers for that.
We've way more depth now compared to back then. Only scrumhalf and maybe hooker looked stronger back then. Interesting to see so many faces who have fallen off the radar.


Obviously POC, BOD and Ferris are big losses to the first team but overall it's a much stronger squad now and theres more to come.

[CiaranIrl]

You have Kearney as third choice fullback, Adelolokun as second choice right wing, O'Mahony as third choice blindside flanker (behind Ruddock), Donncha Ryan behind Roux & Dillane, Jordi Murphy/Dave Kearney/Bowe so far down the list and one or two odd placements. Am I misunderstanding the lists, or is there a bit of your personal point of view in here?

@CiaranIrl, yes this is a personal, subjective viewpoint, but, as far as possible based on the four criteria outlined at the top of the post. In each period under review, an attempt is made to rate players in each position on their performances in the timeframe, without reference to their experience or reputation but trying to take account of the quality of their opponents during that time.

My two biggest dilemmas in this ranking were:
A. Did O'Halloran deserve to being ranked No 1 ahead of Payne?; and
B. Had Leavy played against good enough opposition to put him ahead of Sean O'Brien and Josh VdF?

Re your queries on second-row ranking, I have strong belief in separate roles and skills of Tight-head and Loose-head second rows. IMO, Toner, Dillane & Ryan are all left-side (loose-head) second rows. Roux made a big difference to Connacht & Irish scrum in May / June and is ranked behind only Henderson.

The Blind-side flanker debate is live and very competitive. Possibly, had PO'M played as well against Leinster (after almost a year's absence) as he did this evening against Ospreys, he may have headed Ruddock. Jordi Murphy, IMO, gets selected to do specific things for his Coaches, but is neither fish nor fowl - definitely not an openside and not physical enough as a blindside.

Bowe and Kearney have been injured for large periods and have done little when available since last May to justify higher ranking. Adelolokun, in contrast, has taken every opportunity Pro12 & European, to push his case.

Each ranking gets a fair bit of thought and debate, particularly in areas of strength like back-row. There is constant movement and as @johng noted, it is difficult to keep such rankings up to speed constantly. There is no formula, this is ultimately opinion and subjective viewpoint.

I don't wildly disagree with your ranking, but I just sort of assumed it was going to be based on Joe Schmidt's typical ranking.

[Dave Cahill]

Interesting (unusually) piece on Sportsjoe.ie on the number of players that Joe has given debuts to during his three years in charge. There have been 27 in total. Now not every one of them was a gem, but there were quite a few diamonds in the rough.

http://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/joe-schmi ... ars/102127

List of Joe Schmidt debutants

Jack McGrath (Samoa, November 2013)
Dave Kearney (Samoa, November 2013)

Martin Moore (Scotland, February 2014)

Jordi Murphy (England, February 2014)

Rodney Ah You (Argentina, June 2014)
James Cronin (Argentina, June 2014)
Robbie Diack (Argentina, June 2014)
Kieran Marmion (Argentina, June 2014)
Noel Reid (Argentina, June 2014)
Rob Herring (Argentina, June 2014)

Jared Payne (South Africa, November 2014)

Dave Foley (Georgia, November 2014)
Dominic Ryan (Georgia, November 2014)
Robin Copeland (Georgia, November 2014)

Jack Conan (Scotland, August 2015)
Nathan White (Scotland, August 2015)

Tadhg Furlong (Wales, August 2015)

CJ Stander (Wales, February 2016)

Stuart McCloskey (England, February 2016)
Josh van der Flier (England, February 2016)
Ultan Dillane (England, February 2016)

Finlay Bealham (Italy, March 2016)

Quinn Roux (South Africa, June 2016)
Sean Reidy (South Africa, June 2016)
Matt Healy (South Africa, June 2016)
Tiernan O'Halloran (South Africa, June 2016)

Joey Carbery (New Zealand, November 2016)

[Oldschool]

Interesting (unusually) piece on Sportsjoe.ie on the number of players that Joe has given debuts to during his three years in charge. There have been 27 in total. Now not every one of them was a gem, but there were quite a few diamonds in the rough.

http://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/joe-schmi ... ars/102127

List of Joe Schmidt debutants

Jack McGrath (Samoa, November 2013)
Dave Kearney (Samoa, November 2013)

Martin Moore (Scotland, February 2014)

Jordi Murphy (England, February 2014)

Rodney Ah You (Argentina, June 2014)
James Cronin (Argentina, June 2014)
Robbie Diack (Argentina, June 2014)
Kieran Marmion (Argentina, June 2014)
Noel Reid (Argentina, June 2014)
Rob Herring (Argentina, June 2014)

Jared Payne (South Africa, November 2014)

Dave Foley (Georgia, November 2014)
Dominic Ryan (Georgia, November 2014)
Robin Copeland (Georgia, November 2014)

Jack Conan (Scotland, August 2015)
Nathan White (Scotland, August 2015)

Tadhg Furlong (Wales, August 2015)

CJ Stander (Wales, February 2016)

Stuart McCloskey (England, February 2016)
Josh van der Flier (England, February 2016)
Ultan Dillane (England, February 2016)

Finlay Bealham (Italy, March 2016)

Quinn Roux (South Africa, June 2016)
Sean Reidy (South Africa, June 2016)
Matt Healy (South Africa, June 2016)
Tiernan O'Halloran (South Africa, June 2016)

Joey Carbery (New Zealand, November 2016)

Ten of that list were involved in last Saturdays win which is impressive.

[Ruckedtobits]

Must now check-out new caps against Irish Emerging Tours to Georgia and Romania. I suspect that a very clear pathway will be evident.

[Fireworks]

Would love to see a probables v possibles type run out between the starting 15 from the NZ game and those selected to face Canada. You would get a much better idea of the level they are at seeing direct match offs under the Irish management control. Would love to see Payne v Ringrose.

[ronk]

Most of the list of Joe's debuts shows the pool available and the way players have developed. He was quick to spot and promote a few talents like Dillane but most of this is just recognising club form.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[leinsterforever]

A team selected from players who didn't play this Autumn through non-selection or lack of fitness might look something like the below:

1. James Cronin, 2. Richardt Strauss, 3. Mike Ross, 4. Dan Touhy, 5. Mike McCarthy, 6. Rhys Ruddock, 7. Chris Henry, 8. Jack Conan/Robin Copeland, 9. John Cooney, 10. Ian Keatley, 11. Matt Healy, 12, Stuart McCloskey, 13. Darren Cave, 14. Tommy Bowe, 15. Dave Kearney; 16. Rob Herring, 17. Denis Buckley, 18. Rodney Ah You, 19. Dave Foley, 20. Sean Reidy, 21. Caolin Blade, 22. Stuart Olding, 23. Fergus McFadden

Granted, there are a few players there who have struggled for fitness or form for quite a while but that team still wouldn't look out of place in a Test match. I think it's a good indication that Ireland are in a good place when it comes to strength-in-depth.

It'll be interesting to see what players get capped next. The next guys in line at the moment might be:

1. Denis Buckley, 2. Niall Scannell, 3. Conor Carey, 4. Darren O'Shea, 5. Andrew Brown, 6. Eoin McKeon/Dave O'Callaghan, 7. Jake Heenan, 8. Eoghan Masterson, 9. Caolin Blade, 10. Jack Carty, 11. Ronan O'Mahony/Cian Kelleher, 12. Rory Scannell, 13. Rory O'Loughlin, 14. Darren Sweetnam, 15. Jacob Stockdale; 16. Dave Heffernan, 17. Andrew Warwick/Peter Dooley, 18. Andrew Warwick/Ricky Lutton, 19. Ian Nagle, 20. Sean O'Brien, 21. John Cooney, 22. Ross Byrne, 23. Andrew Conway

There are a fair few good but not outstanding locks around. You could just as easily have Ross Molony, Mick Kearney and Alan O'Connor in there. Of course, someone like James Ryan could emerge and overtake the other contenders quite quickly. Obviously, a fair few of the above players might never be capped, and it'll take another, better option to come through to earn international recognition

The Summer tour should see some new caps handed out. It looks as if Rory Scannell and Sweetnam are closest to making the breakthrough. Buckley can't be too far away either, and there could well be a spot for Cooney or Blade in the squad for USA/Japan.

Hopefully Hanrahan will return from abroad for next season and become another outhalf challenger. Also, some NIQs (Herbst, McCartney, Aki, Ludik) will come on line in the near future and could, in some cases, jump to the head of the queue

Overall, I think Ireland are in a strong position depth-wise going forward, which is good to see

[Twist]

Most of the list of Joe's debuts shows the pool available and the way players have developed. He was quick to spot and promote a few talents like Dillane but most of this is just recognising club form.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

True in general but bringing Quinn Roux to SA was pretty astute


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