Special Project Players

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Re: Special Project Players

Postby simonokeeffe » November 2nd, 2016, 12:32 pm

NZ can be very hypocritical at the best of times. Eg insisting their coaches work abroad but complaining about players doing it

Something that gets overlooked too is the use of 7s series to tie players

As a cultural/perception/truthiness thing its a lot more obvious when you see 'foreign names' on Irish/Scottish/Italian teamsheet but at same time you could look at NZ teamsheet and think oh theyre all robbed from the islands (or they all grew up there or are Maoiri)
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
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Re: Special Project Players

Postby Ruckedtobits » November 3rd, 2016, 9:30 am

hugonaut wrote:
fourthirtythree wrote:
simonokeeffe wrote:http://tier2rugby.blogspot.ie/2014/07/the-truth-how-wrong-old-all-blacks.html

Really worth a read


I found its snide tone and constant cherry picking facts to fit an alrerady reached conclusion when it was written in the style of an investigation into the phenomenon really, really grating. It was like some passive aggressive person who won't shut up at a meeting.

I'm not fond of the project player thing, but then I'm not fond of lots of things. Like imperialism say. Or that article.


Could not agree more, nor could I have put it as well.

When you have NZ/Samoan qualified players like Michael Jones and Frank Bunce selected by Samoa, opting to play for Samoa and then getting picked by the All Blacks after they have played for Samoa, it walks, talks and quacks like a poach. That is certainly where the NH idea that NZ poach players from the islands came from.

Sivivatu was born and grew up in Fiji, and got a scholarship at 15 to a NZ boarding school. He played for the Pacific Islanders* against New Zealand in 2004 [and against Australia and NZ] before being selected for the All Blacks. Incidentally, he was "first named in a trials squad for All Black selection in 2004, despite the fact that he had not yet completed his required three years of residence to qualify as a New Zealand rugby representative." [source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sitiveni_Sivivatu ].

*The ABs also picked Sione Lauaki after he had played for the PIs against them in that tour.

It's not as though it has stopped entirely either: Waisake Naholo emigrated to NZ from Fiji when he was 17 to live with his uncle [source - and interesting read – here: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/ar ... d=11481378 ]. He is a Fijian playing for New Zealand; he was born and raised in Fiji to Fijian parents and has a Fijian passport [ source: http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all- ... ort-family ].

In general, I think the idea they they are scouting the islands and kidnapping lads to play for the ABs is simplified beyond all bounds of accuracy or usefulness – there are loads and loads of economic and social forces at work there. On the other hand, saying that one body paying for somebody to come over and play rugby [a New Zealand boarding school offering a rugby scholarship to an outstanding 15-18 year old islander] is outstandingly different or intrinsically 'better' than another body paying for somebody to come over and play rugby [the IRFU paying a NZ/Samoan/Fiji professional player] is questionable. You could certainly make the argument that the IRFU are dealing directly with adults making decisions about their own lives, not parent making decisions on behalf of their teenage sons.

The part about us dastardly Celts protesting about players playing for two different countries at test level for convenience's sake is funny – what's wrong with somebody going to play for another country once they can't get selected for the country they wanted to play for, anyway? – and NZRU giving out about it is priceless. If they were really that intent on helping the island nations to grow as rugby teams, they'd a] hold off selecting dual-qualified players and b] host them for test matches and tour there in alternate years.



+1, +1.

What an eloquent, well researched contribution. Well done sir, adding useful info to a much hijacked debate.
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Re: Special Project Players

Postby matt » November 3rd, 2016, 11:54 am

Very interesting contributions to date on this thread.

What would people think if the Ireland team at 2019 World Cup was:

Payne, Ringrose, Henshaw, Aki, Zebo, Bleyandhel, Gibson-Park, Mc Grath, Mc Cartney, Bealham, Kleyn, Roux, Heenan, Stander, Van Der Flier.

I have underlined 10 players who have/or are currently going through project player route. Nothing against any of them and glad to see Payne, Bealham and Stander currently in squad but 10 in one Irish team would be excessive.

Take the point that all are adults making free choice unlike the very unhealthy situation where NZ, France & others are taking kids away from (mainly) the Islands.

As an aside great to hear Sione Lauake's name mentioned again on this thread and I see he is still playing for Bayonne. My son and I still recall NZ v Australia in 2008 when Lauake single handedly gifted the match to Australia with about 6 handling errors/turnovers/penalties conceded after coming on as sub just after half time. That's what I call poetic justice.

Ireland could do with a "Lauake" on the NZ team in Chicago this weekend.
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Re: Special Project Players

Postby simonokeeffe » November 3rd, 2016, 1:11 pm

Bealham is heritage qualified. Dont mean to have a go and Herbst is easy interchange

IMO five would be excessive

Griesel on bench for Munster, year 2 project if he stays, so thats 2 project 9s in the system now
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
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Re: Special Project Players

Postby matt » November 3rd, 2016, 2:56 pm

simonokeeffe wrote:Bealham is heritage qualified. Dont mean to have a go and Herbst is easy interchange

IMO five would be excessive

Griesel on bench for Munster, year 2 project if he stays, so thats 2 project 9s in the system now


Thanks Simon I had forgotten about Bealham having Irish heritage.

Like all things in life balance is important and the provinces have benefitted hugely from having these players who look to have bought into the culture and improved the provinces in key positions without which European club success would be more difficult, and without European club success the national team would not have the same battle hardened experience.

Would like to keep things flexible and be fair to all as well as keeping us competitive at the top table but certainly if we ever field more than 7 in the 23 then I think the IRFU should automatically consider the matter at that time.

For what it's worth the 2019 World Cup team could look something like this:

Henshaw, Sweetnam, Aki, Ringrose, Zebo, Carbury, Murray, J.Mc Grath, N.Scannell, Furlong, Dillane or J.Ryan, Henderson, O'Mahony, Stander or Deegan, Van Der Flier or S.O'Brien Subs: O'Halloran or Olding, Bleyandhel, Gibson-Park, Healy, Mc Cartney, Herbst ,J.Ryan or Bealham, Kleyn, Ruddock or Leavy.

So that would be maybe about 7 players in the 23 maybe 8 if Payne still there.

Using those born in 1986 and before as a cutoff that would be leaving out Best(36), Trimble(35), Heaslip(35), Sexton(34), Payne(33), R.Kearney(33),Toner(33), Cronin/Strauss(33), purely on age grounds, however, these players are fighters & no doubt some will still be in contention in 2019 injury permitting.
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Re: Special Project Players

Postby Dave Cahill » November 3rd, 2016, 3:09 pm

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Re: Special Project Players

Postby johng » November 3rd, 2016, 3:24 pm

matt wrote:
Using those born in 1986 and before as a cutoff that would be leaving out Best(36), Trimble(35), Heaslip(35), Sexton(34), Payne(33), R.Kearney(33),Toner(33), Cronin/Strauss(33), purely on age grounds, however, these players are fighters & no doubt some will still be in contention in 2019 injury permitting.

I'd say every one of those will be fighting to be at the next WC. The first group to finish their careers on a high. (Sexton has a central contract all the way to the WC)

The second group could go on another few years after it.
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Re: Special Project Players

Postby matt » November 3rd, 2016, 3:59 pm

Payne, Sexton, Toner, Heaslip in that order have the best chance but the combination of new players like Aki, Ringrose, Carbury, Bleyandel, Dillane, J.Ryan, Kleyn, Deegan, Van Der Flier, plus a returning SOB & POM (& others) improving over the next 3 years means that max 4 to 5 of the above 9 likely to be in 2019 World Cup squad.
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Re: Special Project Players

Postby simonokeeffe » November 3rd, 2016, 7:36 pm

dawned on me now JGP only IQS after our warm ups for 2019 so I think we can rule him out but could well have 2 hookers

its still a good question though, how many is too many? Personally, 5 or 6 in the matchday 23 is a very very plausible scenario (too high for me)
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
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Re: Special Project Players

Postby Ruckedtobits » November 3rd, 2016, 9:07 pm

If the Players listed above are the best that we have by 2019, we will be delighted that they're Irish qualified because a lot of others that we hoped would come through or even improve on where they are now, will have fallen back.

If my aunt had balls etc..........
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Re: Special Project Players

Postby neiliog93 » November 4th, 2016, 12:51 am

6 is completely excessive. 3 max for me, otherwise it starts to become 'who has the best players playing professionally in their country' rather than which country has the best players.
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Re: Special Project Players

Postby simonokeeffe » November 17th, 2016, 2:24 pm

France with all project back 3 this weekend
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
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Re: Special Project Players

Postby Laighin Break » November 17th, 2016, 2:44 pm

They're probably no longer project players so :)
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Re: Special Project Players

Postby simonokeeffe » November 17th, 2016, 2:55 pm

Laighin Break wrote:They're probably no longer project players so :)


All projected sounded wrong
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
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Re: Special Project Players

Postby offshorerules » November 18th, 2016, 10:28 am

I don't have particularly strong view on this but I do remember one Irish team that only had one person in the backs actually born in Ireland back in the late 80's so it been an issue for quite some time.
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Re: Special Project Players

Postby simonokeeffe » November 18th, 2016, 12:00 pm

offshorerules wrote:I don't have particularly strong view on this but I do remember one Irish team that only had one person in the backs actually born in Ireland back in the late 80's so it been an issue for quite some time.


That was mostly if not all heritage qualified players though?
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
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Re: Special Project Players

Postby offshorerules » November 18th, 2016, 12:47 pm

Yes they were and I recognise the difference but it does go to show how long this has been an issue.
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Re: Special Project Players

Postby simonokeeffe » November 18th, 2016, 12:58 pm

offshorerules wrote:Yes they were and I recognise the difference but it does go to show how long this has been an issue.


maybe this is being selfish but am much more ok with the Irish granny players for Ireland, or any other similar country, with a massive history of emmigration due to economic and other factors, so I have no problem with us or Scotland tapping into the diaspora. although yes its a bit iffy when guys play international rugby for a country before playing in the same hemisphere

in isolation I dont think heritage qualified players is much of an issue any more and has steadily waned

of the current squad Marmion's parents are both Irish, Dillane hardly counts, so Bealham only vaguely ropey one

all 4 starting wingers in fact in France v Australia are Fijiain (plus Australias sub winger)
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
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Re: Special Project Players

Postby artaneboy » November 18th, 2016, 8:33 pm

offshorerules wrote:I don't have particularly strong view on this but I do remember one Irish team that only had one person in the backs actually born in Ireland back in the late 80's so it been an issue for quite some time.

1991 had the most glaring example- is that the year you mean? All London Irish input of Geoghegan, Staples, Saunders, Curtis... who else?


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Re: Special Project Players

Postby simonokeeffe » December 20th, 2016, 9:27 pm

France have basically brought in their own 5 year residency period (French passport)

Only current player that affects is Antonio from what Ive read

Interesting all the same, plus means theyll vote for general 5 year rule too
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
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