Ireland v New Zealand - Take Two

[Dave Cahill]

I think that the All Blacks made a tactical decision pre-game to target Irish players above the line of the shoulders. You'd go an entire six nations before seeing the number of 'tackles' of that nature we saw in one single game yesterday - that kind of thing doesn't happen by accident.

[FLIP]

Only 2 citings? Do you think we're stupid, World Rugby?

[hugonaut]

https://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/watch-ho ... site_share


Nearly the worst of the lot.

Don't really see that as a big deal at all. Unfortunate for Stander but I just don't think that there's much wrong with that. Dagg is standing his ground and has his arms up to make the tackle ... Stander dips his head at the last moment and it comes into contact directly with Dagg's shoulder. Dagg doesn't tuck his arm and shoulder barge him, or launch himself when Stander is held by somebody else. It was just an unfortunate collision. It happens.

On the other hand,I think that Fekitoa's effort on Zebo was right at the top end of the high tackle charge sheet. Not sure why that wasn't a red card. It was a swinging arm straight to the head with violent force and no mitigating factors: it didn't slip up from the chest to the neck, Zebo didn't duck into it or make a sudden change in direction and, as the referee said, it occurred in a position where Ireland were clearly on the offensive deep in the All Black's territory.

The fact that Zebo was able to shrug it off is neither here nor there. The issue is the action, not the reaction. Players can get up and walk off from absolutely brutal hits [Zebo in this case], and they can get injured in non-contact situations [Jordi Murphy a couple of weeks ago] ... you're not penalising people on the severity of the injury they've inflicted, you're penalising them on their actions.

[Ruckedtobits]

https://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/watch-ho ... site_share


Nearly the worst of the lot.

Don't really see that as a big deal at all. Unfortunate for Stander but I just don't think that there's much wrong with that. Dagg is standing his ground and has his arms up to make the tackle ... Stander dips his head at the last moment and it comes into contact directly with Dagg's shoulder. Dagg doesn't tuck his arm and shoulder barge him, or launch himself when Stander is held by somebody else. It was just an unfortunate collision. It happens.

On the other hand,I think that Fekitoa's effort on Zebo was right at the top end of the high tackle charge sheet. Not sure why that wasn't a red card. It was a swinging arm straight to the head with violent force and no mitigating factors: it didn't slip up from the chest to the neck, Zebo didn't duck into it or make a sudden change in direction and, as the referee said, it occurred in a position where Ireland were clearly on the offensive deep in the All Black's territory.

The fact that Zebo was able to shrug it off is neither here nor there. The issue is the action, not the reaction. Players can get up and walk off from absolutely brutal hits [Zebo in this case], and they can get injured in non-contact situations [Jordi Murphy a couple of weeks ago] ... you're not penalising people on the severity of the injury they've inflicted, you're penalising them on their actions.

+1, +1

[TerenureJim]

I think that the All Blacks made a tactical decision pre-game to target Irish players above the line of the shoulders. You'd go an entire six nations before seeing the number of 'tackles' of that nature we saw in one single game yesterday - that kind of thing doesn't happen by accident.

well said

[TerenureJim]

Think this is at least the third time where a dodgy officiating call, or several, have led to us loosing to BNZ. Granted we've finally gotten the monkey off our backs but we're not the only team to suffer this. It's about time World Rugby just levelled the playing field and stopped promoting them above all other teams.

[Ruckedtobits]

Think this is at least the third time where a dodgy officiating call, or several, have led to us loosing to BNZ. Granted we've finally gotten the monkey off our backs but we're not the only team to suffer this. It's about time World Rugby just levelled the playing field and stopped promoting them above all other teams.

+1, +1
In NZ, the reaction (fairly typically in my experience) is the "moaning, losing, Irish". If the behaviour meted out by the NZ players, had been inflicted on NZ and come from the English, (which it might do if Eddie Jones has his way next Autumn), the NZ fans would be giving it plenty.

The All Blacks have been serial cheaters i.e. benders and breakers of the Laws of Rugby. Now they have added brutality. As Shane Horgan said on RTE, they never like being questioned closely, although they are always self-critical and analyse their own performances very objectively. The irony is that their attacking play yesterday was at times excellent and they can beat most teams playing rugby.

Lose the illegality and go back to what you're great at and the Lions Series may be worth watching.

[offshorerules]

A couple of possibly controversial points. Firstly we need to become as gracious in defeat as NZ were. Secondly I think it's a shame Murray fell off the tackle for their first try so easily. Sort of put the writing on the wall.

[artaneboy]

A couple of possibly controversial points. Firstly we need to become as gracious in defeat as NZ were. Secondly I think it's a shame Murray fell off the tackle for their first try so easily. Sort of put the writing on the wall.

"Possibly controversial"??? I think you were aware you were indulging in a piece of understatement there.

The truth of the matter is that we are irritatingly famed for our graciousness in defeat. We have, historically had a fair bit of opportunity to hone that quality. The ABs never had that valuable exercise for the ego - but were nice to us two weeks ago when we eventually beat them. But crucially-we didn't 'beat them up', so they would have been reaching for any excuses- although some rationales did emerge during the week pre-match.

The truth is they did look to stop us by any means necessary- and us pointing it out should not be something to be ashamed of. No sireee!


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[FLIP]

Firstly we need to become as gracious in defeat as NZ were.

You mean like making offhanded comments about why they lost being down to them alone and not Ireland in the build up to the test? Sounds gracious enough to me alright.

I'm not about to roll over and accept Irelands fate because of decorum.

[ronk]

https://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/watch-ho ... site_share


Nearly the worst of the lot.

Don't really see that as a big deal at all. Unfortunate for Stander but I just don't think that there's much wrong with that. Dagg is standing his ground and has his arms up to make the tackle ... Stander dips his head at the last moment and it comes into contact directly with Dagg's shoulder. Dagg doesn't tuck his arm and shoulder barge him, or launch himself when Stander is held by somebody else. It was just an unfortunate collision. It happens.

On the other hand,I think that Fekitoa's effort on Zebo was right at the top end of the high tackle charge sheet. Not sure why that wasn't a red card. It was a swinging arm straight to the head with violent force and no mitigating factors: it didn't slip up from the chest to the neck, Zebo didn't duck into it or make a sudden change in direction and, as the referee said, it occurred in a position where Ireland were clearly on the offensive deep in the All Black's territory.

The fact that Zebo was able to shrug it off is neither here nor there. The issue is the action, not the reaction. Players can get up and walk off from absolutely brutal hits [Zebo in this case], and they can get injured in non-contact situations [Jordi Murphy a couple of weeks ago] ... you're not penalising people on the severity of the injury they've inflicted, you're penalising them on their actions.

I don't know. That was my first and second impressions but Stander made a natural rugby move and whatever legal tackle Dagg was supposedly trying to make, the mechanics don't make sense to me.

I've seen that situation a lot and it doesn't really fit. Kearney's clear out 1 second later is closer to textbook.


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[Oldschool]

I think that the All Blacks made a tactical decision pre-game to target Irish players above the line of the shoulders. You'd go an entire six nations before seeing the number of 'tackles' of that nature we saw in one single game yesterday - that kind of thing doesn't happen by accident.

well said

Maybe more a case of looking at the refs name on the "team" sheet and saying get stuck in lads.

[Fan with smartphone]

A couple of possibly controversial points. Firstly we need to become as gracious in defeat as NZ were. Secondly I think it's a shame Murray fell off the tackle for their first try so easily. Sort of put the writing on the wall.

Murray should possibly have sold the farm and rushed at savea but I think he would have offloaded to Ben smith anyway. Murray was in a tough spot, I guess when he goes to tackle he has to make it, but it's harsh to criticise there.

I would pride myself on being gracious in defeat. God knows I have the experience. But don't ask me to ignore what happened. New Zealand played the referee and good luck to them on that. They essentially gambled that they would be punished less by the ref by being illegal than they would be by the Irish attack if they played straight. And guess what? They were 100% right. That's about as big an indictment of your refereeing as it is possible to get I'm afraid. I'm not even talking about the disputed tries here or even the high shots either. I'm talking about the theme of the game.

I don't think we have to worry about it with Schmidt at the helm, but I would urge those thinking "this is what we need to do to win - become more streetwise" to think again. To not have enough faith in your ability is a massive backward step for this brilliant New Zealand team. They may get away this week, but there is a price to pay in the long run for how they went about Saturday. And a big gain for us. We certainly missed Henshaw (particularly) and also missed a lift in impact by having to bring on some our impact subs early. We could have used more kicks earlier like the one that almost put Payne away in order to keep their defensive line back a little. There's things we can do better, but we will get better for these 2 games. I actually think when you think of all the "firsts" we've had over the past 10 years, this 2 weeks has been a huge evolutionary jump for us. This is an incredible New Zealand team, some of their attack is unreal, but we are now better than them. Scoreboard didn't say it this time, but we are.

Here's an interesting piece from the herald. Almost makes a great point, then fails miserably, but still interesting.
http://m.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/arti ... d=11751661

[fourthirtythree]

A couple of possibly controversial points. Firstly we need to become as gracious in defeat as NZ were.

f%~k that. We need to protect our players by kicking up an almighty f%~king fuss and making sure that displays like that go punished. And make sure that refs are watching out for those high tackles.

When Hansen got testy the other night the correct response would have been to have the stats ready on just what an outlier in terms of high tackles from a tier one team in a test match that was. And ask as NZ are famous for their preparation and review do they not think there were mistakes in their preparation that they need to review.

And then we need to go Welsh on the ref! Wales had a high rate of tip tackling offences and kicked up such a fuss about getting penalised for it that they actually got one of our players binned for nothing while escaping a red in a 6N game with us. Whining on a forum or whatever is useless, we need our colour guys, co-commentators, studio experts, journalists to relentlessly hammer the same message while the IRFU kicks up sh!t.

[FLIP]

Whining on a forum or whatever is useless, we need our colour guys, co-commentators, studio experts, journalists to relentlessly hammer the same message while the IRFU kicks up sh!t.

The latter will do nothing while the former is not loud enough. From the ground up.

[desperado]

I think that the All Blacks made a tactical decision pre-game to target Irish players above the line of the shoulders. You'd go an entire six nations before seeing the number of 'tackles' of that nature we saw in one single game yesterday - that kind of thing doesn't happen by accident.

agree

[neilinboston]

https://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/watch-ho ... site_share


Nearly the worst of the lot.

Don't really see that as a big deal at all. Unfortunate for Stander but I just don't think that there's much wrong with that. Dagg is standing his ground and has his arms up to make the tackle ... Stander dips his head at the last moment and it comes into contact directly with Dagg's shoulder. Dagg doesn't tuck his arm and shoulder barge him, or launch himself when Stander is held by somebody else. It was just an unfortunate collision. It happens.

On the other hand,I think that Fekitoa's effort on Zebo was right at the top end of the high tackle charge sheet. Not sure why that wasn't a red card. It was a swinging arm straight to the head with violent force and no mitigating factors: it didn't slip up from the chest to the neck, Zebo didn't duck into it or make a sudden change in direction and, as the referee said, it occurred in a position where Ireland were clearly on the offensive deep in the All Black's territory.

The fact that Zebo was able to shrug it off is neither here nor there. The issue is the action, not the reaction. Players can get up and walk off from absolutely brutal hits [Zebo in this case], and they can get injured in non-contact situations [Jordi Murphy a couple of weeks ago] ... you're not penalising people on the severity of the injury they've inflicted, you're penalising them on their actions.

I don't know. That was my first and second impressions but Stander made a natural rugby move and whatever legal tackle Dagg was supposedly trying to make, the mechanics don't make sense to me.

I've seen that situation a lot and it doesn't really fit. Kearney's clear out 1 second later is closer to textbook.


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Whether by intent or not, dagg lowers the shoulder and makes no effort to use arms. Now that might be more instinctual for his own safety but it's still illegal. Certainly a penalty, certainly not a red. A lot of debate room in the middle.

[leinsterforever]

https://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/watch-ho ... site_share


Nearly the worst of the lot.

Don't really see that as a big deal at all. Unfortunate for Stander but I just don't think that there's much wrong with that. Dagg is standing his ground and has his arms up to make the tackle ... Stander dips his head at the last moment and it comes into contact directly with Dagg's shoulder. Dagg doesn't tuck his arm and shoulder barge him, or launch himself when Stander is held by somebody else. It was just an unfortunate collision. It happens.

On the other hand,I think that Fekitoa's effort on Zebo was right at the top end of the high tackle charge sheet. Not sure why that wasn't a red card. It was a swinging arm straight to the head with violent force and no mitigating factors: it didn't slip up from the chest to the neck, Zebo didn't duck into it or make a sudden change in direction and, as the referee said, it occurred in a position where Ireland were clearly on the offensive deep in the All Black's territory.

The fact that Zebo was able to shrug it off is neither here nor there. The issue is the action, not the reaction. Players can get up and walk off from absolutely brutal hits [Zebo in this case], and they can get injured in non-contact situations [Jordi Murphy a couple of weeks ago] ... you're not penalising people on the severity of the injury they've inflicted, you're penalising them on their actions.

Can't agree with your assessment of the Dagg incident at all. Dagg does more than just brace himself. He actively leans his shoulder in, looking to make quite an impact. It doesn't look to me as if he's trying to effect a tackle, and even if Stander hadn't dipped his head I think Dagg's shoulder would still have contacted the head, probably on the chin. Red card, for me.

Cane, in my view, was a bit unlucky. He was trying to put in a dominant tackle, and caught Henshaw high because the two players closed quickly. A penalty and a warning to be careful not to hit high would have been appropriate, I think. His citing shows that he was veering into dangerous territory, though, and he could have been carded.

I think the Fekitoa one was a clear-cut red cardable offence. There's nothing much to argue about.

It looked to me as if Sexton's high tackle on Barrett probably should have resulted in a penalty try if Barrett was adjudged to have not got the ball down.

I'd like to see the incident on about 15 mins where Coles was penalised for coming in at the side on Murray again. Is there forceful shoulder to head contact?

[neiliog93]

Both Cane and Fekitoa's were definite yellows and borderline reds. A fair result would probably have been one yellow and one red for those.

[leinsterforever]

Both Cane and Fekitoa's were definite yellows and borderline reds. A fair result would probably have been one yellow and one red for those.

Peyper seemed reluctant to go to the TMO for the Fekitoa one. Maybe Owens's comments during the week had an influence?