Ireland v Australia

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Re: Ireland v Australia

Postby blockhead » December 1st, 2016, 10:25 am

Francis the talking Mule in the Indo today
Furlong gets to the pinnacle without ever having a consistent run of games his talent deserved from 2013-15. If Joe Schmidt can get performances of such quality from a player that nobody within the provincial ranks would have ever considered, how many more have we let through the fishing nets?

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WTF?
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Re: Ireland v Australia

Postby Dave Cahill » December 1st, 2016, 10:39 am

blockhead wrote:Francis the talking Mule in the Indo today
Furlong gets to the pinnacle without ever having a consistent run of games his talent deserved from 2013-15. If Joe Schmidt can get performances of such quality from a player that nobody within the provincial ranks would have ever considered, how many more have we let through the fishing nets?

A gem uncovered and the miners were digging in another cave


WTF?



If you strip away Franno's "prose stylings", what he's saying is actually not in-accurate. Until he left, the farm had been bet on Marty Moore. Now whether he would have retained that position as Furlong matured, who can say - can one say that Furlong would have matured as quickly as he did without the gametime he got when Moore left if Marty Moore had stuck around. Would we have needed him to mature as quickly as he did if Marty Moore had stuck around? A lot of questions, but Franno isn't actually wrong
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Re: Ireland v Australia

Postby Peg Leg » December 1st, 2016, 10:57 am

Dave Cahill wrote:
blockhead wrote:Francis the talking Mule in the Indo today
Furlong gets to the pinnacle without ever having a consistent run of games his talent deserved from 2013-15. If Joe Schmidt can get performances of such quality from a player that nobody within the provincial ranks would have ever considered, how many more have we let through the fishing nets?

A gem uncovered and the miners were digging in another cave


WTF?



If you strip away Franno's "prose stylings", what he's saying is actually not in-accurate. Until he left, the farm had been bet on Marty Moore. Now whether he would have retained that position as Furlong matured, who can say - can one say that Furlong would have matured as quickly as he did without the gametime he got when Moore left if Marty Moore had stuck around. Would we have needed him to mature as quickly as he did if Marty Moore had stuck around? A lot of questions, but Franno isn't actually wrong

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Re: Ireland v Australia

Postby simonokeeffe » December 1st, 2016, 12:42 pm

Furlong has been first choice all season and was 18 on SA tour so hardly came from nowhere, White retired, Ross not 2019 capable, Marty unavailable for part of Autumn before injury
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
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Re: Ireland v Australia

Postby CiaranIrl » December 1st, 2016, 3:06 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:
blockhead wrote:Francis the talking Mule in the Indo today
Furlong gets to the pinnacle without ever having a consistent run of games his talent deserved from 2013-15. If Joe Schmidt can get performances of such quality from a player that nobody within the provincial ranks would have ever considered, how many more have we let through the fishing nets?

A gem uncovered and the miners were digging in another cave


WTF?



If you strip away Franno's "prose stylings", what he's saying is actually not in-accurate. Until he left, the farm had been bet on Marty Moore. Now whether he would have retained that position as Furlong matured, who can say - can one say that Furlong would have matured as quickly as he did without the gametime he got when Moore left if Marty Moore had stuck around. Would we have needed him to mature as quickly as he did if Marty Moore had stuck around? A lot of questions, but Franno isn't actually wrong


Not entirely true about Moore. Furlong was incredibly highly rated within the camp for the last couple of years. Plenty of people in the camp had given the feedback that Furlong was the best long term bet for the future, and it affected how much they were willing to spend & work to keep Moore. From a fitness and S&C point of view, Moore was difficult. Moore is and was a better scrummager and better at the breakdown, while Furlong is a much more fit player. He gets around the pitch faster and gets through much more work. He is also a considerably more explosive carrier.

Also, the idea that he was as good in 2013 as he is now is ludicrous. He wasn't ready then, and he is ready now. The whole thing worked out perfectly. He was at the world cup, and didn't get selected! Why? Because he wasn't at the level he is at now.
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Re: Ireland v Australia

Postby Dave Cahill » December 1st, 2016, 3:38 pm

For the sake of accuracy, he was at the World Cup because of a stress fracture suffered by Marty Moore.

I think that in 12-13 there was a lot expected of Furlong - remember in JRWC '12 he'd given Steven Kitshoff (who had already played Super Rugby) a good going over when the u20s beat the baby boks who went on to win the tournament. He might not be as good as he is now, but would have been one of most highly rated players in his position in his age group in the world.

But for whatever reason Joe Schmidt, and thus Leinster, had Marty Moore as Mike Rosses succcessor and Furlong had to play the waiting game
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Re: Ireland v Australia

Postby CiaranIrl » December 1st, 2016, 5:51 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:For the sake of accuracy, he was at the World Cup because of a stress fracture suffered by Marty Moore.


Yep. He got a chance because of injury, but he still didn't get selected to play in the match day squads - ahead of Ross or White. It wasn't Moore that prevented him from being unable to get ahead of White or Ross, it was because whatever he was or wasn't doing in training.

Dave Cahill wrote:I think that in 12-13 there was a lot expected of Furlong - remember in JRWC '12 he'd given Steven Kitshoff (who had already played Super Rugby) a good going over when the u20s beat the baby boks who went on to win the tournament. He might not be as good as he is now, but would have been one of most highly rated players in his position in his age group in the world.

But for whatever reason Joe Schmidt, and thus Leinster, had Marty Moore as Mike Rosses succcessor and Furlong had to play the waiting game


I think that Furlong age 20 was a different player to Furlong age 24 (in fact, he was 23 until 2 weeks ago), and that's perfectly normal. My understanding is that a lot of people expected and hoped that Furlong age 24 would become an outstanding player. Furlong is 1.5 years younger, and has generally gotten his chances at around the same age Marty Moore got his.
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Re: Ireland v Australia

Postby Oldschool » December 1st, 2016, 6:48 pm

CiaranIrl wrote:
Dave Cahill wrote:For the sake of accuracy, he was at the World Cup because of a stress fracture suffered by Marty Moore.


Yep. He got a chance because of injury, but he still didn't get selected to play in the match day squads - ahead of Ross or White. It wasn't Moore that prevented him from being unable to get ahead of White or Ross, it was because whatever he was or wasn't doing in training.

Dave Cahill wrote:I think that in 12-13 there was a lot expected of Furlong - remember in JRWC '12 he'd given Steven Kitshoff (who had already played Super Rugby) a good going over when the u20s beat the baby boks who went on to win the tournament. He might not be as good as he is now, but would have been one of most highly rated players in his position in his age group in the world.

But for whatever reason Joe Schmidt, and thus Leinster, had Marty Moore as Mike Rosses succcessor and Furlong had to play the waiting game


I think that Furlong age 20 was a different player to Furlong age 24 (in fact, he was 23 until 2 weeks ago), and that's perfectly normal. My understanding is that a lot of people expected and hoped that Furlong age 24 would become an outstanding player. Furlong is 1.5 years younger, and has generally gotten his chances at around the same age Marty Moore got his.

A lot of people did not want Furlong rushed and thus being crocked. TH is a tough position, it's man's work so to speak, Furlong was far too young to risk having a potentially golden career ruined before it had barely begun.
Joe Schmidt seems to want to handle Ringrose and Carberry in a similar fashion, allow them time to develop.
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Re: Ireland v Australia

Postby Fan with smartphone » December 1st, 2016, 8:43 pm

Yeah at 24 last month (many happy returns) he is more than a year and a half younger than Moore, who remains one of the best young tightheads around. Furlong also had a shoulder dislocation I think and has come through that. Franno is way off - it was clear from his 1st u20 World Cup that Furlong could be something. You could hardly have missed him. The second World Cup just put a big neon light on it. Matt O'Connor even saw it. Schmidt has handled him as Schmidt does - don't want the porridge too hot or cold but juuuuuust right. I'd have thought he is an example of textbook identification and progression!

The one I am surprised has been missed by the Irish system is Betts. I thought at the 6nations last year he looked the part and he backed it up at the World Cup. I think he is worth watching, but it seems he wasn't particularly rated.
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Re: Ireland v Australia

Postby scentofgunpowder » December 1st, 2016, 9:45 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:For the sake of accuracy, he was at the World Cup because of a stress fracture suffered by Marty Moore.

I think that in 12-13 there was a lot expected of Furlong - remember in JRWC '12 he'd given Steven Kitshoff (who had already played Super Rugby) a good going over when the u20s beat the baby boks who went on to win the tournament. He might not be as good as he is now, but would have been one of most highly rated players in his position in his age group in the world.

But for whatever reason Joe Schmidt, and thus Leinster, had Marty Moore as Mike Rosses succcessor and Furlong had to play the waiting game


Maybe I'm mistaken but I remember reading when Moore was breaking through that it was a surprise because everyone at Leinster thought Furlong was a bigger prospect, and it was a serious injury to Furlong that gave Moore his break
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Re: Ireland v Australia

Postby Fan with smartphone » December 1st, 2016, 10:03 pm

Ah moorahdze was always rated too. Here's a question, who is Ireland's youngest ever tighthead? I'm guessing Furlong was the youngest capped of the 3, but I can't imagine there are too many younger than furlong, Moore or Bealham.
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Re: Ireland v Australia

Postby neiliog93 » December 1st, 2016, 10:30 pm

Ben Betts was rated, there was a fair of gnashing of teeth in Munster when he was lost to Leicester. I think he as an individual felt he had a better chance over there (I would agree that big English clubs generally produce better tight-heads) and yes, I'd say English academies pay more than the 5-10k our guys are expected to survive on.
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