Scotland v. Ireland

[wixfjord]

I do not for one second believe that this will happen, I am also convinced that Zebo will be moved to wing to accommodate kearney.

With Trimble a doubt this wouldn't be remotely surprising.
Even with him available it's 50/50, particularly with Sexton out.

[Oldschoolsocks]

There's a fair amount of discussion about the back row, and one option that seems beyond many is playing possibility the form 8 in Europe at 8 for Ireland.

Surely it's time to give stander a run of games at 8? Especially when you have options like Henderson and pom at 6.

It is not a popular subject on here, but the dropping of Heaslip will happen sooner or later, and imo there is no better time than the first couple of games of this 6 nations.

Picking Jack Conan at 8 for our 6N opener would certainly ruffle some feathers

[munster#1]

You want the back row to be SOB, VDF and Stander?

I would have liked to see POM, VDF and Stander, but now I would like to see Henderson come in in place of POM.
This would provide better options in the line-out, and allow stander to play to his full potential, in his best position.

I do not for one second believe that this will happen, I am also convinced that Zebo will be moved to wing to accommodate kearney.

Surely with POM out you don't make two moves in the backrow. Hendo, VDF and Stander have never played together. Hendo rarely plays for Schmidt at 6, likewise Stander at 8. Up against a stellar Scottish backrow, that would be foolish.
Heaslip is also in good form, it makes much more sense to play Stander, VDF, Heaslip.
With Sexton out too, you don't drop your vice captain for an away game apropos of nothing.

Again, I don't believe that Joe will do it, he has his favourites, and is ultra conservative with his selections.

Saying that, I don't believe it would be that big of a disruption. Possibly less of one that moving stander out of position. A position where he plays week in, week out. Same goes for Henderson when fit.

It is also worth pointing out that, although this is an away game, it is against Scotland. With the provinces playing so well, and the amount of depth in the squad, I can not see Ireland being troubled.

It will be a hard fought first 20 -30 mins, but Ireland will win easy.

[wixfjord]

Saying that, I don't believe it would be that big of a disruption. Possibly less of one that moving stander out of position. A position where he plays week in, week out. Same goes for Henderson when fit.

You reckon that dropping your VC and moving two players into positions they rarely play for Ireland in a backrow that has never played together is less disruption than playing the backrow that played much of the AIs together? Is that right?

[munster#1]

Saying that, I don't believe it would be that big of a disruption. Possibly less of one that moving stander out of position. A position where he plays week in, week out. Same goes for Henderson when fit.

You reckon that dropping your VC and moving two players into positions they rarely play for Ireland in a backrow that has never played together is less disruption than playing the backrow that played much of the AIs together? Is that right?

If we were playing against France or England I would not be throwing Henderson in there, but this is Scotland, and Henderson is the type of player that any team would love to have.

You are doing both a massive disservice to be of the opinion that playing Henderson at 6 and stander at 8 would weaken the team.

You are putting to much value on the back row as a unit. A backrow is made up of 3 individuals, with 3 individual jobs. They are not like the back 3 or the half backs, they do not linkup too much in open play.
A back row should consist of your best players In their best positions. And when you have options you shouldn't move your beat player out of position to accommodate another.

Imo with Henderson/POM, vdf and stander you have a very balanced backrow, packed with ability and potential.

[suisse]

There's a fair amount of discussion about the back row, and one option that seems beyond many is playing possibility the form 8 in Europe at 8 for Ireland.

Surely it's time to give stander a run of games at 8? Especially when you have options like Henderson and pom at 6.

Why? Is the current backrow an area of weakness for Ireland?

The turnips have always had this weird obsession with Heaslip. They're never convinced by a player who has convinced the likes of Michael Cheika (Heineken Cup, Super 15 and a RWC Final appearance), Declan Kidney (one of only two men to lead Ireland to a GS) and Joe Schmidt (one of, if not 'the', best coaches who has ever worked in Ireland). Also, Sir Ian McGeechan who picked Heaslip for 3 tests in SA and Warren Gatland, who started Heaslip in 2 tests of the successful 2013 Tour. Then all his Leinster coaches too. He's only won 91 international caps, 219 for Leinster and 5 for the B&I Lions. Plus a bunch of medals as first choice #8. He's Ireland VC, as pointed out above, and he was a nominee for World Player of the Year, whether you like it or not.

But I suppose if there's a discussion in Limerick.....

Heaslip will eventually lose his place. But I don't see why that has to be now. Is he out of form for club and country? Did you see Ireland v NZ twice? The back row that started the game in Dublin was absolutely sensational. 6, 7 and 8. Why does it need to be changed?

[Peg Leg]

Heaslip (the form 8 in Europe) needs to pack in Rugby and set up a firm as a negotiations guru.

[matt]

Whatever about Twist just copying and paste his post from another forum and getting caught out on it...
M1 is Stander your latest promo boy from Munster? Heaslip had been unbelievably good at international level for the last 12 months - maybe the Italy match but we don't do rotation in the 6nations in the opening game, only when we can't win the tournament

What does the province he play for have to do with it?

There is no doubt that stander is probably the best Irish player at the moment, and is probably also the best 8 in Europe, and up there with the best in the world.

Ireland don't have too many players of this calibre, and surely when we do have a player like this, he should play in his best position.

The best & most established back row for Ireland is SOB/VDF, CJS, JH. We will need all against an improving Scotland.

The best no 8's in Europe are Billy Vunipolo, Jamie Heaslip, Toby Faletau, followed by Sergio Parisse, Jack Conan, & CJ Stander.

[Oldschool]

Saying that, I don't believe it would be that big of a disruption. Possibly less of one that moving stander out of position. A position where he plays week in, week out. Same goes for Henderson when fit.

You reckon that dropping your VC and moving two players into positions they rarely play for Ireland in a backrow that has never played together is less disruption than playing the backrow that played much of the AIs together? Is that right?

Of course he doesn't, he's just an oul' wum.
Joe can walk on water and he knows it.
His problem is that Joe walks mostly on the Liffey and less so on the Shannon and it's little tributary the Lee.

[Xanthippe]

Can someone who has played rugby please tell me if losing the toe nail on your big toe is likely to make playing uncomfortable or is it likely to make playing impossible?

[Morf]

Can someone who has played rugby please tell me if losing the toe nail on your big toe is likely to make playing uncomfortable or is it likely to make playing impossible?

Cleaned up, bit of anti-septic and a dressing just in case - he'll be grand.

[hugonaut]

Cat amongst the pigeons but anyone else think it's a little wrong that a player of POM's ability will likely loose out to Stander? Putting it out for debate, maybe it needs its own thread.

I don't think there's anything much wrong with it at all. It's just playing by the regulations.

In my opinion, refusing to pick nationalised players who are clearly performing better than their competitors would be like refusing to kick the ball anywhere on the pitch and trying to run and pass your way out of danger all the time: intentionally handicapping yourself so you could claim the moral high ground. If/when the regulations change to a five year period – which I would have no problem with – than we should change ... but not before.

In any case, Stander is playing so much better than O'Mahony that it's not even a contest. Bar the occasional lineout steal, O'Mahony's form is really not very impressive at all. He's coming back from a whole year out of the game and two serious surgeries, and he's still looking to find something like his best form. Progress is probably slower than he would have hoped, but you can't honestly say that's wholly unexpected. Coming back from ACL surgery is a tricky business, and he had a third shoulder surgery over that period to contend with as well.

Obviously he's a really important figure in Munster and a good provincial captain. People in Munster [both on the pitch and in the stands] seem to really identify with him, which certainly has a value, but one that is more or less intangible. I think there's an observable tendency to make a big deal of sort of ordinary things that he does and attribute importance to them because it's him doing them. Peter O'Mahony celebrates CJ Stander try brilliantly! etc.

But to be frank, there seems to be some sort of mass delusion about a supposed 'barnstorming return to form' [to quote Gerry Thornley]. He's not playing that well at the moment and isn't all that effective – except in the lineout, as mentioned above. I can't recall lineouts ever being this important when Locky McLaughlin was king of the skies!

Every time I watch Munster I try to keep an eye on O'Mahony to see if I'm missing something that he's doing and I see more or less the same thing: ordinary carrying, good bits-and-pieces of handling, excellent line-out play, few mistakes, okay tackling and a decent but not noticeably impressive workrate ... what's the big deal?

I went and did a short exercise using the Scrum.com statistical headings for the games he has started for Munster this season and compared them to Jack Conan's, who has split time between Nos 6 & 8 this season. Just a simple exercise, compiling totals and finding an average/game [in bold]; the average is an adjusted average, based on one decimal place and rounded to the nearest integer. For example, O'Mahony has averaged 1.9 passes/game, so that is rounded to 2, likewise the average of 6.2 metres run is rounded to 6.

O'Mahony
11 starts/1 try
K/P/R: 1/23/67 [0/2/6]
MR: 69 [6]
CB: 0 [0]
DB: 3 [0]
Offloads: 1 [0]
Turnovers Conceded: 8 [1]
Tackles Made: 70 [6]
Tackles Missed: 4 [0]
Lineouts Stolen: 6 [1]

Pro12/OPTA Stats [O'Mahony]: http://www.pro12rugby.com/player/?PlayGuid=PO196534

Conan
8 starts/5 tries
K/P/R: 4/39/101 [1/5/13]
MR: 439 [55]
CB: 14 [2]
DB: 35 [4]
Offloads: 11 [1]
Turnovers Conceded: 6 [1]
Tackles Made: 98 [12]
Tackles Missed: 3 [0]
Lineouts Stolen: 2 [0]

Pro12/OPTA Stats [Conan]: http://www.pro12rugby.com/player/?PlayGuid=JC661063

Conan beats him in 10 of 11 statistical categories, both in totals and averages - more kicks, passes, carries, more tackles made/fewer missed, fewer turnovers conceded – and whips him in an absolute rake of them: 14 clean breaks to none, 35 defenders beaten to 3, 11 offloads to 1, 5 tries to 1, 439 metres run to 69m ... the only thing that O'Mahony trumps him in is lineouts stolen, 6 to 2.

Basically, any observation of these two players show that one guy is in great form, and the other is in middling form. To be honest, I could have used Jack O'Donoghue or Dan Leavy or Sean Reidy or Josh van der Flier as comparisons. They are all proving a lot more productive for their respective provincial teams than O'Mahony is this season, and in practically all aspects of the game [again, bar the lineout, where POM is head and shoulders above any of them]. However, Conan is the real stand-out and I'd say he's making his presence felt in training. Personally speaking, I think we're deep in the backrow, and O'Mahony's absence isn't going to cause many issues.

[offshorerules]

Interesting post but I would argue that O'Mahony does bring excellent leadership on the pitch and he is an old head at this point in time. Personally I'm a big fan of both players and other than indulging the trivia nerd in me comparisons like this have little merit unless it was a comparison of one match where they played against each other in the same positions and in an evenly fought contest. Just my opinion though man.

[Oldschool]

Jesus H Christ.
We don't have problems in our BR or SR or FR.
Where we do have problems is in our backs.
Sexton gone and Trimble probably, Bowe out of form and Carberry injured.
We're on a knife edge, how about discussing those issues instead of the usual "Heaslip is in decline" shyte
The discussion is not should RK be FB or Zebo be at FB.
With Payne out too RK has to start.
That means Zebo on one wing and ANOther on the other.

[Golf Man]

While I wouldn't be suggesting that Heaslip should be dropped at this point in time, its not above discussion. Any of our backrow options are strong, but the concept of say

Henderson/VDF/Stander with Dillane and SOB on the bench is about as expolosive as it gets

That said I would prefer Henderson to play lock solely - we have options in the back row, while we aren't too bad in the second row, it nowhere near the depth in the backrow

On Heaslip in general - he went through a phase where he was poor imo, but has been outstanding in the last 12/18 months - absolutely should be on the team atm. If POM gets back to the kind of form he had v France in the WC - then there is an arguement to be had - none of th options at 6 have produced that level of performance and he dos offer a big plus at lineout

On POM generally - a lot of the comment on him is similiar to comments that used be made about Heaslip => POM is probably the most intelligent backrow option we have - hugely adpatable and while he may not have these huge stats, heis not used to do that - POM on form has more influence on a game than any of the other backrowers

[Laighin Break]

There's a fair amount of discussion about the back row, and one option that seems beyond many is playing possibility the form 8 in Europe at 8 for Ireland.

Surely it's time to give stander a run of games at 8? Especially when you have options like Henderson and pom at 6.

It is not a popular subject on here, but the dropping of Heaslip will happen sooner or later, and imo there is no better time than the first couple of games of this 6 nations.

I think playing the World Player of the Year nominee at no.8 (where he played when picking up the nomination), and the Irish Player of the Year at 6 (where he played when picking up the award) is probably a better shout actually.
Usually I can't stand Toland, but he had an interesting article a few months back comparing Stander's stats to Jamie's. Stander just carries pretty much every time - it can be quite predictable, which is why I assume he never impresses against Leinster (Conan completely outshine him in Thomond Park), whereas Jamie passes a lot more (which seems to be a negative thing for a no.8 to do from a Munster POV) but when he does actually carry, he makes more metres per carry on average.

[Laighin Break]

I can't believe the stuff being said about Stander. He's moved his life here, served the requisite time and even learned Amhrán na bhFhiann!

I wonder if he takes citizenship will that be enough for some people?

He's an immigrant doing a brilliant job and contributing to his new local community. What more can he do? If he has no right to play ahead of an Irish-born player then how does a Polish plumber have a right to be hired for a job when an Irish-born plumber isn't??


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Richardt Strauss learned Amhrán na bhFiann, but don't think that stopped the moans from down south.
Anyway, nothing bad has been said about Stander, but your analogy is quite ridiculous - a Polish plumber is not representing Ireland when hired to fix a sink. Stander was hired by Munster - no issues there. It's the representation of our country that some people may have issue wiyh, but not really on this forum.

[outcast eddie]

I can't believe the stuff being said about Stander. He's moved his life here, served the requisite time and even learned Amhrán na bhFhiann!

I wonder if he takes citizenship will that be enough for some people?

He's an immigrant doing a brilliant job and contributing to his new local community. What more can he do? If he has no right to play ahead of an Irish-born player then how does a Polish plumber have a right to be hired for a job when an Irish-born plumber isn't??


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Richardt Strauss learned Amhrán na bhFiann, but don't think that stopped the moans from down south.
Anyway, nothing bad has been said about Stander, but your analogy is quite ridiculous - a Polish plumber is not representing Ireland when hired to fix a sink. Stander was hired by Munster - no issues there. It's the representation of our country that some people may have issue wiyh, but not really on this forum.

When renewing my passport in Beijing last Summer I got to meet the senior Irish diplomat in the consulate who turned out to be an Eastern European lady (although I didn't query whether she knew the song). Representing Ireland is not the preserve of those born in Ireland in more areas than sport.

[Laighin Break]

No doubt for me that Henderson and Dillane look like the future lock pairing alright but while Ryan is coming to the end of his career you'lh have to think you'll get another few years out of Dev.

We have a Ryan of our own that may have a say in that!

[Golf Man]

There's a fair amount of discussion about the back row, and one option that seems beyond many is playing possibility the form 8 in Europe at 8 for Ireland.

Surely it's time to give stander a run of games at 8? Especially when you have options like Henderson and pom at 6.

It is not a popular subject on here, but the dropping of Heaslip will happen sooner or later, and imo there is no better time than the first couple of games of this 6 nations.

I think playing the World Player of the Year nominee at no.8 (where he played when picking up the nomination), and the Irish Player of the Year at 6 (where he played when picking up the award) is probably a better shout actually.
Usually I can't stand Toland, but he had an interesting article a few months back comparing Stander's stats to Jamie's. Stander just carries pretty much every time - it can be quite predictable, which is why I assume he never impresses against Leinster (Conan completely outshine him in Thomond Park), whereas Jamie passes a lot more (which seems to be a negative thing for a no.8 to do from a Munster POV) but when he does actually carry, he makes more metres per carry on average.

Never saw that article from Toland - but stats don't back that claim up at all

1. Conan at Thomond was outstanding, but to say that he completely outshone Stander is patently incorrect - Conan had 1 kick, 7 passes, 16 carries and made 38m. Stander had 1 kick, 7 passes, 20 carries and made 23m. Conan did have substantially more tackles (18 to but that was a function of teh game (all the leinster starting pack made more than 10 tackles, none of Munsters did)

2. In the European Cup this year the stats for Heaslip and Stander are
Stander Heaslip
Passes 28 30
Carries 100 73
Metres 270 147
Metres/carry 2.7 2
Tackles 49 39

3. When they play together for Ireland Heaslip does pass more, but Stander carries more - metres /carry for Ireland are pretty much identical from what I looked (Heaslip 1.21, Stander 1.15)

4. Stander passes pretty much more than any forward in Munster - and Munster forwards pass pretty much the same amount as Leinster forwards (albeit presumably tighter)

There is absolutely an argument that Stander moving to 8 would strengthen Ireland (allowing a lienout No.6) and certainly that it wouldn't weaken us. We would lose leadership (although would gain if POM played 6). That said I think Heaslip has been excellent for Ireland in the last year - I think that is related to Standers arrival in the team - and that is excellent to see. With all our options in the backrow they are actually the two demanding selction - and at the moment you have to pick both imo