Scotland v. Ireland

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Re: Scotland v. Ireland

Postby kermischocolate » February 5th, 2017, 10:28 pm

munster#1 wrote:A massive consequence of yesterday's defeat, apart from oldschool's sanity, may well be some players losing out on lions spots.

There are a small number of players who would be considered as nailed on to travel, but for players who are close, or even outside bets could well suffer.

The bulk of the squad will most likely come from Wales and whoever wins the 6 nations if it's not Wales, with the other 2 nations filling the numbers.

Another loss would most likely see Ireland lucky to see 5 or 6 lads travel, whereas a championship victory would probably see close double that number travel.


Given the attitude Hogg in particular came back from the last Lions tour with I'd be quite happy if very few Glasgow players went. As for everyone else I just think the Lions tour in it's current format is well past it's sell by date. The players get flogged enough for the rest of the year- I'd rather they had a good rest. We all know it will be Wales plus a few extras anyway. Nothing to do with the best players from 4 nations in each position.
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Re: Scotland v. Ireland

Postby suisse » February 5th, 2017, 10:33 pm

munster#1 wrote:Another loss would most likely see Ireland lucky to see 5 or 6 lads travel, whereas a championship victory would probably see close double that number travel.


Conor Murray, Simon Zebo, Robbie Henshaw, CJ Stander, Jack McGrath, Tadgh Furlong and Rory Best are definitely on the plane. That's 7 even if the season is a disaster.

Johnny Sexton will be selected (unfortunately) if fit and the likes of Iain Henderson, Peter O'Mahony, Jamie Heaslip and Rob Kearney (his reputation is better in the UK than Ireland) are in contention to some degree, helped by a championship and injuries elsewhere. I'm not sure about Devin Toner, Cian Healy and Sean O'Brien. I would be surprised if they go.
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Re: Scotland v. Ireland

Postby munster#1 » February 5th, 2017, 10:44 pm

suisse wrote:
munster#1 wrote:Another loss would most likely see Ireland lucky to see 5 or 6 lads travel, whereas a championship victory would probably see close double that number travel.


Conor Murray, Simon Zebo, Robbie Henshaw, CJ Stander, Jack McGrath, Tadgh Furlong and Rory Best are definitely on the plane. That's 7 even if the season is a disaster.

Johnny Sexton will be selected (unfortunately) if fit and the likes of Iain Henderson, Peter O'Mahony, Jamie Heaslip and Rob Kearney (his reputation is better in the UK than Ireland) are in contention to some degree, helped by a championship and injuries elsewhere. I'm not sure about Devin Toner, Cian Healy and Sean O'Brien. I would be surprised if they go.


I would not have Zebo or Henshaw as being nailed on. They both play in positions of relative health in the other nations, and Henshaw lacks versatility at international level.

I would have stander as a certainty imo, but again, there are a shed load of quality back row players around, and if the Irish pack get out played again, they may struggle to get players on the plane.
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Re: Scotland v. Ireland

Postby suisse » February 5th, 2017, 10:51 pm

munster#1 wrote:
suisse wrote:
munster#1 wrote:Another loss would most likely see Ireland lucky to see 5 or 6 lads travel, whereas a championship victory would probably see close double that number travel.


Conor Murray, Simon Zebo, Robbie Henshaw, CJ Stander, Jack McGrath, Tadgh Furlong and Rory Best are definitely on the plane. That's 7 even if the season is a disaster.

Johnny Sexton will be selected (unfortunately) if fit and the likes of Iain Henderson, Peter O'Mahony, Jamie Heaslip and Rob Kearney (his reputation is better in the UK than Ireland) are in contention to some degree, helped by a championship and injuries elsewhere. I'm not sure about Devin Toner, Cian Healy and Sean O'Brien. I would be surprised if they go.


I would not have Zebo or Henshaw as being nailed on. They both play in positions of relative health in the other nations, and Henshaw lacks versatility at international level.

I would have stander as a certainty imo, but again, there are a shed load of quality back row players around, and if the Irish pack get out played again, they may struggle to get players on the plane.


With all those guys, reading what the Brits are saying, it isn't hard to connect the dots. I would say all 7 there are definitely going.
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Re: Scotland v. Ireland

Postby munster#1 » February 5th, 2017, 11:19 pm

suisse wrote:
munster#1 wrote:
suisse wrote:Conor Murray, Simon Zebo, Robbie Henshaw, CJ Stander, Jack McGrath, Tadgh Furlong and Rory Best are definitely on the plane. That's 7 even if the season is a disaster.

Johnny Sexton will be selected (unfortunately) if fit and the likes of Iain Henderson, Peter O'Mahony, Jamie Heaslip and Rob Kearney (his reputation is better in the UK than Ireland) are in contention to some degree, helped by a championship and injuries elsewhere. I'm not sure about Devin Toner, Cian Healy and Sean O'Brien. I would be surprised if they go.


I would not have Zebo or Henshaw as being nailed on. They both play in positions of relative health in the other nations, and Henshaw lacks versatility at international level.

I would have stander as a certainty imo, but again, there are a shed load of quality back row players around, and if the Irish pack get out played again, they may struggle to get players on the plane.


With all those guys, reading what the Brits are saying, it isn't hard to connect the dots. I would say all 7 there are definitely going.


In sport there is no such thing as "definitely".
Also, what these Brit's you talk of write is completely irrelevant, as the squad will be picked by a Kiwi.

I hope you are right, and we do see a large number of Irish players get this recognition, but imo the number of players picked from each nation apart form Wales will be largely based on how well that nation perform.
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Re: Scotland v. Ireland

Postby fourthirtythree » February 6th, 2017, 9:53 am

That's what Gatland said and I see no reason to disbelieve him. He even went so far as to say that last time round the England Wales match, which Wales won, was a selection match for quite a few positions.

If he were picking today England would dominate the squad. It's up to the Irish players to take their spots if they want them.
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Re: Scotland v. Ireland

Postby Golf Man » February 6th, 2017, 11:07 am

Will be interesting to see if there is any actual fallout from this result - rather than very poor performances, the team looked ill prepared, uninterested, sloppy (maybe a bit overconfident) Thats pretty much worse imo - anyone can have a bad game, but if the attitude is wrong then you are in trouble

Front Row - some of the comments on Best are laughable - he had a poor game, and I think he let his captaincy be affected by his own performance. IMO should have given Scannell 10/15 minutes but he is nailed on. Starting props the same. Ryan was I thought the pick of the bench (not that he was amazing our anything). Healy is not the player that he was - if we are not getting impact from Healy (and we certainly didn't) then Kilcoyne who has been in great form needs to be given a chance - Healy certainly certainly should not be as nailed on as he appears to be

Second Row - it appears a possibility that Ryan was fit - he travelled to Scotland etc. Quite simply a bad call from Schmidt if that is the case - dropping the form second row and including Dillane who hasn't played in weeks and didn't look fit as impact. Toner was poor - a lot of the lineout failure is on him, but that said we have low options in the lineout in the team selected

Backrow - individually great players and none of them had a bad game per se, but they are all kind of similar and don't appear top have the necessary nous. I would have POM in a shot, even more convinced of that now. If not available then pick VDF or possibly even Conan - they are all good options and no harm putting a rocket up some arses

Half backs - Murray and Jackson were like a lot of the others - a bit meh - but absolutely start them again

Centres - Ringrose looked out of his depth, but recovered well in the second half - not sure if this narrow defence is employed when we have a lighter/less experienced 13 rather than Payne. He should stick with him - but if Payne was fit I think Ringrose would be gone (bit like McCloskey last year)

Back 3 - Again mixing good and bad (its mad the amount of players that are being described in both our best and worst players lists). Kearney had some decent breaks but made some awful errors aswell - he has been a great servant but the decision needs to be mad e- selecting him is not a decision for now or for the future. Zebo didn't look anything like as threatening as he has for Munster - obv different position and gameplan, but its unsettling that a back playing in a pragmatic Munster team looks more dangerous than in a Joe Schmidt team. Earls finished the try well but was caught out defensively like the rest of the backs

Bench - Marmions and Scannell should have got gametime without a doubt. Dillane and Healy were non events. VDF little impact. Ryan decent. Bowe - again decision needs to be made

Coaching Staff - conservatism in selection needs to be looked at - TOH, Ryan, Kilcoyne, VDF, Byrne, Conan are real form players and not making squad/23/15. Conservatism in approach - our attack is as ever looking blunt and negative. I don't believe that Earls and Zebo are slow but as above they seemed to be playing at a slower pace than they have recently with Munster - thats on them but also on teh coaches. We seem to be a team that when it clicks are very difficult to beat but can't react if figured out. There was real. lack of leadership - Best didn't captain well imo, and the likes of Toner, Heaslip, Murray, Henshaw and Kearney didn't step up. Lineout and defence specifically were an issue - completely avoidable and really the key factors in us losing. Our coaches were comprehensively outplayed at the weekend - that needs to be addressed
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Re: Scotland v. Ireland

Postby Logorrhea » February 6th, 2017, 11:24 am

Our front five were simply outplayed. That was the main problem for me. If they turned up the half backs would have been better, however ...........

Murray's was meh. We all saw the level he can achieve in Chicago but he hasn't been anywhere near that since really. Our best scrumhalf by a mile but frustratingly inconsistent.

Jackson was very meh, though he improved in the second half. He didn't seem to know how to manage Scotland's defense until the coaches corrected it at half-time. Not good enough really.
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Re: Scotland v. Ireland

Postby Golf Man » February 6th, 2017, 12:22 pm

Logorrhea wrote:Our front five were simply outplayed. That was the main problem for me. If they turned up the half backs would have been better, however ...........

Murray's was meh. We all saw the level he can achieve in Chicago but he hasn't been anywhere near that since really. Our best scrumhalf by a mile but frustratingly inconsistent.

Jackson was very meh, though he improved in the second half. He didn't seem to know how to manage Scotland's defense until the coaches corrected it at half-time. Not good enough really.


Think you are giving the backrow a bit of a pass there - individually they were all ok, but as a unit they were outplayed - kind of sums up the entire team tbh

Your expectations are unrealistic (although understandable) - he really isn't inconsistent - but expecting him to achive a consistent level in line with with Chicago performance is unrealistic (did POC acheive Croke Park 2007 v England standard all the time, was BOD always as good as he was v France in 2000 - no) - that said talking about Murray in teh same vein as those two (and I think he is every bit as important now as they were) says a lot, and also says that he really isn't our problem

Our backline under Schmidt has never been dangerous - its always been efficient, and been supported by a pack more often than not on top. We have seen a couple of times of our inability to convert chances and inability to adjust when a pack gets on top of us - they are the big issues imo. England will look at that performance with glee - they'll be confident that they can take our lineout on, they'll challenge the scrum and physically attempt to bully us, knowing taht we haven't the ability/gameplan to win on less possession.

A lot was made of the lineout before and after the game - all it shows to me is that we are overly reliant on it - we are a little bit like Gatlands Wales in one sense - there is a Plan A, which when it works is incredibly good, but if it doesn't we don't have options - thats the main thing that needs to be addressed imo - and its not like its the first time this has happened.
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Re: Scotland v. Ireland

Postby brenno » February 6th, 2017, 12:33 pm

As far as I'm concerned the fewer Irish who go on the Lions tour the better. All we'll get is players coming back at best exhausted and at worst crocked. Our priority has to be the Irish team and building a panel to do better at RWC 2019 than we have in the past and overloading key players with a tour mainly aimed at filling the NZRU's empty coffers and is a relic from history should not be an option. Tired players and those with an injury record (Sexton, SOB, POM) should stay home and recover, send a young group of players to Japan for the summer tour to develop and we'll be in an altogether position for the next couple of seasons and RWC.
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Re: Scotland v. Ireland

Postby suisse » February 6th, 2017, 12:37 pm

Golf Man wrote:Will be interesting to see if there is any actual fallout from this result - rather than very poor performances, the team looked ill prepared, uninterested, sloppy (maybe a bit overconfident) Thats pretty much worse imo - anyone can have a bad game, but if the attitude is wrong then you are in trouble


I really don't agree with a lot of that. Before the game, I would have said that in order for Scotland to win this game, they would need to do exceptional homework on Ireland (and clearly they did, especially on our defense plus working in pairs on CJ and SOB), and then devise a game-plan to attack the areas we're weak in and then, after all that execute it perfectly. They did. In the first half, especially. It was an amazing achievement.

But we were still winning the game with 8 minutes to go. I would agree that we were probably over-confident, especially after the third try when we threw high risk passes instead of looking to close out the game. But I don't, for a second, think we were uninterested and I doubt a Schmidt team ever goes into a game like this unprepared.

I haven't actually watched the game back since seeing it live, but the moment PJ got possession after Laidlw's winning penalty, we looked shot. Everything was rushed and chaotic. It started with the restart. Best should have had his men under the posts as Laidlaw kicked and told them we had 5 mins to work a position to win the game. Nothing we did after that made sense. And we never looked like winning. We really f%~ked up. And the price to pay is a heavy won. Whatever about the championship, Ireland really can't afford a 3 wins from 5 season.
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Re: Scotland v. Ireland

Postby Hippo » February 6th, 2017, 12:44 pm

Logorrhea wrote:Our front five were simply outplayed. That was the main problem for me.


But they weren't really, especially in the scrum and the loose. The lineout was a much greater problem. I thought Henderson (particularly) had a poor outing and obviously some of Best's darts were a bit sluggish, but the other 3 had decent enough games. I would have liked to see Scannell get a run.

The one-off runner tactic didn't work at all - Stander was very successfully targeted - and Jackson consistently in the first half took the ball far too deep to be any kind of threat. Not only that, the alignment outside him was particularly deep as well with the result that the second receiver was sometimes taking the ball what seemed like 20m behind the gain line; Scotland were well ahead of the hindmost foot for most of the game in any event but inviting them on like that really didn't help us gain any momentum, and we seemed too nervous to kick and give Hogg a chance to run back at us. You'd have to assume that the one-out runner idea was the coaches', but surely the players have the ability/freedom to adapt when it's clearly not working? They didn't, and that early failure cost us the match.

There were so many individual errors throughout the team that you'd have to hope we can't possibly repeat them on such a scale again in the championship. That embarrassing lineout try will live long in the memory though :evil:

I realise I have just criticised 3 Ulster players and absolved 3 Leinster players :oops: - it really wasn't meant to be like that!
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Re: Scotland v. Ireland

Postby OTT » February 6th, 2017, 12:53 pm

Golf Man wrote:.

A lot was made of the lineout before and after the game - all it shows to me is that we are overly reliant on it - we are a little bit like Gatlands Wales in one sense - there is a Plan A, which when it works is incredibly good, but if it doesn't we don't have options - thats the main thing that needs to be addressed imo - and its not like its the first time this has happened.


I don't think that is true. We scored three tries with a cr@p lineout and should have had a couple more and had numerous linebreaks.

We were flat at the start, couldn't deal with the Scots hitting us behind the gainline (the officiating in general of the offside line is one of my serious grievances with rugby, we introduce new laws biannually but never officiate this part of the game which is usually clear and obvious to everyone bar the ref and the touch judge who is in a prime position, fair play to Scots for playing the ref though). Our defence was really soft which was massively disappointing and leaked some easy scores. Once we got motoring in the second half we got ahead and we blew it then when the Scots were out on their feet. All that despite the lineout being rubbish. It is unacceptable at this level for the lineout to be so bad but we definitely had enough weapons to win in spite of that. I just can't believe how flat we were at the start the intensity was way off which usually might happen after three or four games in a tournament through wear and tear. Scotland ad infinitum play the game offside and flop over the ball why did we not expect this?

We were punished for being off our game and it is what makes the 6 nations a great tournament. England and Wales were no great shakes themselves we can still win a championship starting in Rome on Saturday. Onwards and upwards.
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Re: Scotland v. Ireland

Postby olaf the fat » February 6th, 2017, 1:42 pm

Games like that are what make the 6Ns great. Yes, we should have seen out the last 10 minutes out to win - but Scotland were good at what they did. The failure to take advantage of such a strong scrum is maddening.

The real luck was that nobody else got a bonus point win.
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Re: Scotland v. Ireland

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » February 6th, 2017, 2:26 pm

I still can't get over how bad our attack was. It reminded me of Ireland under Kidney towards the end or Leinster under MOC. It was almost like we were holding something back or just didnt trust Jackson to run the attack that we usually play. You knew exactly who was getting the ball and there was just no variety or options on the ball. It changed a bit in the second half but one moment stood out for me. We put Zebo away at the back of a lineout and there were loads of options that time and it worked, but it was actually a bit of a fluke because the execution was poor and we were lucky to make the half break. It was just off all day.

Don't agree with the calls for Best to come off. We got back into the game, improved the lineout, and took the lead. Given how the game had gone I wouldn't have been taking off our captain for a debutante. I'm a big fan of Scannell but Scotland would have been all over his throws and that's very tricky for a guy making his international debut with a pack full of guys from other provinces. We didn't close it out but Id still prefer to keep our captain on.

I'd start Ryan next week and bring Kilcoyne onto the bench. Not sure if I'd make any changes in the backs but that's because I'm not sure if any of the injured guys will be fit.
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Re: Scotland v. Ireland

Postby Oldschoolsocks » February 6th, 2017, 2:35 pm

+1 LRIP


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the irony being that ad-hominen and appeal to majority are the most often used defences of the apologist.
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Re: Scotland v. Ireland

Postby Golf Man » February 6th, 2017, 2:44 pm

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:I still can't get over how bad our attack was. It reminded me of Ireland under Kidney towards the end or Leinster under MOC. It was almost like we were holding something back or just didnt trust Jackson to run the attack that we usually play. You knew exactly who was getting the ball and there was just no variety or options on the ball. It changed a bit in the second half but one moment stood out for me. We put Zebo away at the back of a lineout and there were loads of options that time and it worked, but it was actually a bit of a fluke because the execution was poor and we were lucky to make the half break. It was just off all day.

Don't agree with the calls for Best to come off. We got back into the game, improved the lineout, and took the lead. Given how the game had gone I wouldn't have been taking off our captain for a debutante. I'm a big fan of Scannell but Scotland would have been all over his throws and that's very tricky for a guy making his international debut with a pack full of guys from other provinces. We didn't close it out but Id still prefer to keep our captain on.

I'd start Ryan next week and bring Kilcoyne onto the bench. Not sure if I'd make any changes in the backs but that's because I'm not sure if any of the injured guys will be fit.


Thats a pretty good point re Best tbh

I'd start VDF ahead of SOB for this one (assuming POM is out)

Very limited options in the back 3 - TOH won't be trusted by Schmidt, TRimble likley not available - taht leaves Bowe and Gilroy :cry:
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Re: Scotland v. Ireland

Postby wixfjord » February 6th, 2017, 2:47 pm

Surprised to see people wanting VDF to start, he was ineffective when he came on and SOB played well.
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Re: Scotland v. Ireland

Postby wixfjord » February 6th, 2017, 2:49 pm

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:I still can't get over how bad our attack was. It reminded me of Ireland under Kidney towards the end or Leinster under MOC. It was almost like we were holding something back or just didnt trust Jackson to run the attack that we usually play. You knew exactly who was getting the ball and there was just no variety or options on the ball. It changed a bit in the second half but one moment stood out for me. We put Zebo away at the back of a lineout and there were loads of options that time and it worked, but it was actually a bit of a fluke because the execution was poor and we were lucky to make the half break. It was just off all day.

.


Could not get over how deep Jackson was, particularly in first 20. Coupled with Scotland's aggression/offsidedness that meant we were relying on straight carries from SOB/Stander to make ground a lot.
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Re: Scotland v. Ireland

Postby Golf Man » February 6th, 2017, 4:33 pm

wixfjord wrote:Surprised to see people wanting VDF to start, he was ineffective when he came on and SOB played well.


I think VDF is a better starter than sub - his impact is in the volume of work he gets through rather than the big impact that someone like SOB or Stander would have.
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