Scotland v. Ireland

[wixfjord]

M1, you can't handle the truth that Murray was awful, he offered very little today - His decline has been shockingly quick.
Glasgow roughed him up and he folded today.

Jesus man stop, you're embarrassing yourself.

Above is your post addressing my post.
A bit of revisionism going on by you further up.
Straw man comes to mind.

What 'revisionism'? What are you talking about there?
Have you had a few drinks by any chance?

[All Blacks nil]

Disappointing to see Joe only able to trust 20 of his match day 23.
A pity that an opportunity to see both Tracey and Scannell play at test level against Canada was spurned. Obviously Cronin's potential impact from the bench was missing but unfortunately Joe couldn't back his third choice and now de facto second choice hooker. In such a tough game with long periods of multi phase play surely a fresh Scannell could have made an impact on that game.
Murray had an off day but Joe's long term reluctance to play Marmion has left him in a Munsteresque situation where he doesn't trust the backup. Give the guy game time and get him up to test level.
Keatly's non cap is perhaps more understandable when you consider Joe didn't select him in his original 40 man squad.
It's often said it is a 23 man game at pro level....unfortunately we turned up with 20

[paddyor]

Murray certainly did a lot of aimless kicking but guess what, thats what he is instructed to do. I don't think Ireland won a single catch from a box kick but kept doing it. The definition of madness. Marmion was left on the bench then and he is the kind of player you'd want in that situation. Once again the attacking game from Ireland comes up short. Its galling to see Scotland move swiftly across the pitch while Ireland have to resort to bashing it up the middle. People mention Irelands play evolving but theres no evidence of that.


The big danger going into the match was the lineout. That was the biggest area of concern and so it proved correct. If POM was playing Irelands lineout would have worked smoothly not to mention bring a bit more fire to the pack. They looked very casual out there in the first half. The backrow in general looked unbalanced.
....

That's complete nonsense. How is POM going to make Henderson catch an iffy throw? Glasgow played Munster not too long ago and IIRC the Munster lineout wasn't 100% in that game

[hugonaut]

Fair play to the Scots, who took their chances brilliantly in the first half and then defended like tigers. They also showed good composure to come back and take the lead in the last ten minutes and deserved their win.

To be honest, I don't think there's one big reason why we lost the game – just lots of little ones that added up.

It seems that our tendency towards a narrow defense has been figured out as our major weakness. I thought as the first half progressed that there were marked similarities with the defensive performance against Argentina in RWC15. Given that there has been quite a change in personnel and, even more obviously, a change in defense coach between those games, it's a little puzzling.

The lineout was scrappier than anybody would have liked. I think more of that is down to Iain Henderson being in the row in place of Donnacha Ryan [out injured], than it is CJ Stander being there in place of Peter O'Mahony. I don't think that Hendo was used at all as a jumper and to be honest, that sort of thing doesn't happen by accident. Stander was used three or four times, from my recollection. Ryan is an underrated lineout player – he has stolen more lineouts this season for Munster than O'Mahony [8 as compared to 6] but doesn't seem to get the same plaudits for it. I don't think Hendo's all-round performance was anywhere near good enough to keep him in the team if Ryan is available for selection against Italy.

The third Scottish try [the lineout one] was absolutely farcical from us, and particularly Tadhg Furlong. I don't think he'll ever make that mistake again, but this was a big enough match in its own right to make writing it off as a 'learning experience' a non-starter.

I felt that Jackson played too deep in the first half, a little in the comfort zone. He wasn't challenging the Scottish defense [and his own skillset] by pulling off passes close to the gainline, and he wasn't punishing the quick Scottish defensive line by kicking the ball over/behind them. If you're going to play deeper you need to really make the most of the extra second of observation it gives you. I don't think he did that today.

Murray had quite a poor game by his standards. Apologies for indulging in narratives, but it's difficult not to believe that the big deal that Munster made about Glasgow roughing him up – and then the player [unwisely] moaning about it himself the following week – had an affect on his performance.

John Ryan impressed when he came on, thought he showed a couple of incidences of outstanding strength. Good performance from Rob Kearney at fullback, probably the pick of the backs with Henshaw a close second. I think it'd be churlish to criticise any of the backrowers, who gave the team a huge amount of front foot ball - 60 carries for 140+metres.

I wasn't wholly surprised with this result; as I said before, I thought that this was the best team that Scotland have fielded in a long time, and I felt we didn't really get any breaks from Poite.

[hugonaut]

Disappointing to see Joe only able to trust 20 of his match day 23.
A pity that an opportunity to see both Tracey and Scannell play at test level against Canada was spurned. Obviously Cronin's potential impact from the bench was missing but unfortunately Joe couldn't back his third choice and now de facto second choice hooker. In such a tough game with long periods of multi phase play surely a fresh Scannell could have made an impact on that game.
Murray had an off day but Joe's long term reluctance to play Marmion has left him in a Munsteresque situation where he doesn't trust the backup. Certainly Duncan Williams could have done no worse than Marmion today.
Keatly's non cap is perhaps more understandable when you consider Joe didn't select him in his original 40 man squad.
It's often said it is a 23 man game at pro level....unfortunately we turned up with 20

Jesus wept. Think of the untrammelled heights Irish rugby could have reached if only it wasn't held back by that Blue Joe.

[All Blacks nil]

Disappointing to see Joe only able to trust 20 of his match day 23.
A pity that an opportunity to see both Tracey and Scannell play at test level against Canada was spurned. Obviously Cronin's potential impact from the bench was missing but unfortunately Joe couldn't back his third choice and now de facto second choice hooker. In such a tough game with long periods of multi phase play surely a fresh Scannell could have made an impact on that game.
Murray had an off day but Joe's long term reluctance to play Marmion has left him in a Munsteresque situation where he doesn't trust the backup. Certainly Duncan Williams could have done no worse than Marmion today.
Keatly's non cap is perhaps more understandable when you consider Joe didn't select him in his original 40 man squad.
It's often said it is a 23 man game at pro level....unfortunately we turned up with 20

Jesus wept. Think of the untrammelled heights Irish rugby could have reached if only it wasn't held back by that Blue Joe.

When will you get over the fact that Joe no longer coaches Leinster.
After all the preparation I was surprised to see three players left on the bench. I would love to see Rory Best's printouts after the match and see was he going and hitting as hard in the last 20 minutes of a game peppered with multiple multi phase periods of play.
Murray had an off day and if ever he needed to be replaced today was the day. Not a mention of Munster or Leinster but Ireland

[kermischocolate]

Ireland simply showed a total lack of respect and didn't take Scotland seriously. They assumed they'd rock up, steamroller over them and win at a canter. Would Ireland have turned down 2 kickable penalties against NZ/ Eng/ France etc early in the first half? I doubt it- they would get points on the board first and foremost.
By the time they realised they might actually have to work to win the game they got into a winning position but somehow Scotland got over their nightmarish wobble and have discovered how to win a game.

Here's hoping they do it again against France.

[CiaranIrl]

Ireland simply showed a total lack of respect and didn't take Scotland seriously. They assumed they'd rock up, steamroller over them and win at a canter. Would Ireland have turned down 2 kickable penalties against NZ/ Eng/ France etc early in the first half? I doubt it- they would get points on the board first and foremost.
By the time they realised they might actually have to work to win the game they got into a winning position but somehow Scotland got over their nightmarish wobble and have discovered how to win a game.

Here's hoping they do it again against France.

In fairness, that's exactly what we did against New Zealand. It's not about turning down points, it's about retaining possession as long as possible to wear a team down.

[Oldschool]

Ireland simply showed a total lack of respect and didn't take Scotland seriously. They assumed they'd rock up, steamroller over them and win at a canter. Would Ireland have turned down 2 kickable penalties against NZ/ Eng/ France etc early in the first half? I doubt it- they would get points on the board first and foremost.
By the time they realised they might actually have to work to win the game they got into a winning position but somehow Scotland got over their nightmarish wobble and have discovered how to win a game.

Here's hoping they do it again against France.

In fairness, that's exactly what we did against New Zealand. It's not about turning down points, it's about retaining possession as long as possible to wear a team down.

That sums it up in one line really.

[Oldschool]

Ireland simply showed a total lack of respect and didn't take Scotland seriously. They assumed they'd rock up, steamroller over them and win at a canter. Would Ireland have turned down 2 kickable penalties against NZ/ Eng/ France etc early in the first half? I doubt it- they would get points on the board first and foremost.
By the time they realised they might actually have to work to win the game they got into a winning position but somehow Scotland got over their nightmarish wobble and have discovered how to win a game.

Here's hoping they do it again against France.

Our lack of respect was for our own possession would be more accurate.

[dropkick]

Murray certainly did a lot of aimless kicking but guess what, thats what he is instructed to do. I don't think Ireland won a single catch from a box kick but kept doing it. The definition of madness. Marmion was left on the bench then and he is the kind of player you'd want in that situation. Once again the attacking game from Ireland comes up short. Its galling to see Scotland move swiftly across the pitch while Ireland have to resort to bashing it up the middle. People mention Irelands play evolving but theres no evidence of that.


The big danger going into the match was the lineout. That was the biggest area of concern and so it proved correct. If POM was playing Irelands lineout would have worked smoothly not to mention bring a bit more fire to the pack. They looked very casual out there in the first half. The backrow in general looked unbalanced.
....

That's complete nonsense. How is POM going to make Henderson catch an iffy throw? Glasgow played Munster not too long ago and IIRC the Munster lineout wasn't 100% in that game

[munster#1]

Ireland simply showed a total lack of respect and didn't take Scotland seriously. They assumed they'd rock up, steamroller over them and win at a canter. Would Ireland have turned down 2 kickable penalties against NZ/ Eng/ France etc early in the first half? I doubt it- they would get points on the board first and foremost.
By the time they realised they might actually have to work to win the game they got into a winning position but somehow Scotland got over their nightmarish wobble and have discovered how to win a game.

Here's hoping they do it again against France.

Our lack of respect was for our own possession would be more accurate.

First correct thing you've said all day. Far too many dropped balls, forward passes, passes to opposition players, not protecting the ball at the breakdown and line-out errors. Our pack really let us down in that regards.

[ronk]

Fair play to Scotland, they were completely prepared for us and we didn't have an answer for their defensive line speed especially in the first half. It broke our rhythm.

It helped that they were able to use a trick move for one score.

[Oldschool]

Ireland simply showed a total lack of respect and didn't take Scotland seriously. They assumed they'd rock up, steamroller over them and win at a canter. Would Ireland have turned down 2 kickable penalties against NZ/ Eng/ France etc early in the first half? I doubt it- they would get points on the board first and foremost.
By the time they realised they might actually have to work to win the game they got into a winning position but somehow Scotland got over their nightmarish wobble and have discovered how to win a game.

Here's hoping they do it again against France.

Our lack of respect was for our own possession would be more accurate.

First correct thing you've said all day. Far too many dropped balls, forward passes, passes to opposition players, not protecting the ball at the breakdown and line-out errors. Our pack really let us down in that regards.

As I'm on a role.
Then when we did get the ball to our scrum half he showed even less respect for the ball than the rest of the team.

[matt]

This defeat was self inflicted. Could not understand when we had their scrum in such trouble that we went for lineout/maul near their line in first half with all the execution risk that entails.

Communication in defence for all 3 trys very poor.

[RAILWAY1]

Decision making was a major factor in this loss and whether this came from the coaching staff or the leaders on the pitch or a combination of both it must be addressed if we are to have any real success this season.
1 Who decided to go for a line out from a 5 metre penalty when the Scottish scrum was in total disarray (captain or coaching staff)
2 why not use our other subs late in the game when Scotland was tiring, maybe the fresh legs of Marmion and Scannell might have opened the defence and got us a win and bonus point.

Unlike some posters I do not wish to pick out individuals for criticism as no I believe every player on that pitch today gave everything he had but alas it wasn't enough on the day and to start singling out players ends up being very provincial which is unfair to the players.

[Oldschool]

Considering Stabder and SOB were in the BR, Heaslip had to do a lot of carrying.
Perhaps not starting JVDF was a mistake.
Henderson had a quiet game too, you'd wonder if he has the engine fot SR

[munster#1]

Considering Stabder and SOB were in the BR, Heaslip had to do a lot of carrying.
Perhaps not starting JVDF was a mistake.
Henderson had a quiet game too, you'd wonder if he has the engine fot SR

I agree that we should have started vdf, not for the reason you mentioned, but because he is the form player, and is better at the breakdown.
SOB was definitely picked for his ball carrying, but he appeared to be a few steps off the pace.

It is not unusual that your number 8 would do most of the carrying, by their nature a number 8 is generally the man with the most carries.

[Oldschool]

Considering Stabder and SOB were in the BR, Heaslip had to do a lot of carrying.
Perhaps not starting JVDF was a mistake.
Henderson had a quiet game too, you'd wonder if he has the engine fot SR

I agree that we should have started vdf, not for the reason you mentioned, but because he is the form player, and is better at the breakdown.
SOB was definitely picked for his ball carrying, but he appeared to be a few steps off the pace.

It is not unusual that your number 8 would do most of the carrying, by their nature a number 8 is generally the man with the most carries.

Stander VDF and Heaslip would be a better balance.
As regards No. 8.
That is certainly the case in Munster but Joe's teams don't necessarily play it that way.

[TerenureJim]

Considering Stabder and SOB were in the BR, Heaslip had to do a lot of carrying.
Perhaps not starting JVDF was a mistake.
Henderson had a quiet game too, you'd wonder if he has the engine fot SR

Henderson is a few seasons off being ready for the row at this level, watch back most games he's had in an Irish shirt in the row and he's usually kinda missing and/or blowing hard

Best needs to chat to the ref more about the hindmost foot at ruck, often yesterday Murray was barely hands on the ball and the Scottish players were clearly about a meter forward, that's not line speed that's taking advantage of a ref not policing a key rule of the game also why are they called assistant referees if they don't flag and "assist" the referee in clear offsides.

We gifted them two tries through particularly lazy/unaware defence which is unacceptable. We got back into the game but then Murray let us down with wayward kicking towards the end gifting them possession needlessly.

Scotland full value for their win but we are to a man a better squad and will recover, just a bloody shame a great GS opportunity has gone missing.