Italy v Ireland 2017

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Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby Laighin Break » February 15th, 2017, 4:12 pm

Golf Man wrote:
wixfjord wrote:
the spoofer wrote:
It's amazing the number of people who must watch a lot of rugby and include TOH in teams. Coaches at the top level who are serious about winning do not pick flakey full backs.


You know I'm happy someone else said that, because I thought I was going mad! Really don't get the TOH love in.

He is absolutely nowhere near Kearney or even Zebo's level as a test FB. - he has a total of 117 minutes as a test player, with 80 of those against Canada - not sure you can really make a statement based on his experience

Positionally dodgy, tends to lose the ball in contact a lot and at Pro12 level relies on his speed a lot to get himself out of difficult situations, an option that won't be open at test level. - while I think you are overegging it a bit, there are possible concerns about ball retention in particular (don't think there is really an issue positionally) - a lot to do with the way Connacht play imo, using his speed in a negative light is a novel way of making your point. We are crying out for speed in the back 3, and he has it in spades

Sure, he's only 25 and needs experience if he's going to crack on, but people were speaking as if he would usurp Kearney and Zebo even with both fit! - a 25 year old, in form, a real leader in the Connacht team that won the Pro 12 last year - he 100% has to be in consideration. The fact that you don't mention his capability in attack is a bit mental - a lot of our issues lately have been with not taking chances, being a bit predictable, not converting opportunities etc - TOH is a good fit to a problem lik e that



If you want a full back who presents the ball well (every single time), is generally in the right place (although some times does the wrong things), but is the most limited option attacking wise by far - then kearney is your man - so much for Leinstertainment though. Personally I'd love to see Zebo backed at full back - in the same way that Ringrose is being backed at 13, but can understand keeping him on the wing as well.

The concept of an inform fast and attacking full back being promoted over a safer ageing option really shouldn't surprise anyone


I'd have to disagree with your first point. I'm always worried when Kearney gets the ball in the backfield and decides to "attack". He has a tendency to run straight into the first tackler instead of going for space. There was a while there where he gave away a good few penalties doing this as he was then isolated.
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Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby wixfjord » February 15th, 2017, 4:17 pm

fourthirtythree wrote:
wixfjord wrote:
the spoofer wrote:
It's amazing the number of people who must watch a lot of rugby and include TOH in teams. Coaches at the top level who are serious about winning do not pick flakey full backs.


You know I'm happy someone else said that, because I thought I was going mad! Really don't get the TOH love in.

He is absolutely nowhere near Kearney or even Zebo's level as a test FB. Positionally dodgy, tends to lose the ball in contact a lot and at Pro12 level relies on his speed a lot to get himself out of difficult situations, an option that won't be open at test level.

Sure, he's only 25 and needs experience if he's going to crack on, but people were speaking as if he would usurp Kearney and Zebo even with both fit!


I think we are a bit skewed in our rating of him having seen him be poor in the RDS.

And also Gilroy: grand for Italy, I'm afraid I wouldn't trust him against France. We're short of people and Trimble is a player who has delivered for Schmidt if not the most eye catching player. So I see Earls, Trimble, Zebo as the most likely. Gilroy to the bench I suspect as he was next cab off the rank last week and didn't exactly harm his chances (though I saw a quote from Schmidt talking about his positioning etc.).

We are not going to beat the French wingers with power and pace, it has to be with nous.


He was pretty poor against Toulouse too, but I'm not basing this on one or two games either. I'm definitely suffering from some subconscious bias towards Kearney, but for me TOH's failings mean he'll find it tough to break into a Schmidt side.
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Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby wixfjord » February 15th, 2017, 4:20 pm

Golf Man wrote:
wixfjord wrote:
the spoofer wrote:
It's amazing the number of people who must watch a lot of rugby and include TOH in teams. Coaches at the top level who are serious about winning do not pick flakey full backs.


You know I'm happy someone else said that, because I thought I was going mad! Really don't get the TOH love in.

He is absolutely nowhere near Kearney or even Zebo's level as a test FB. - he has a total of 117 minutes as a test player, with 80 of those against Canada - not sure you can really make a statement based on his experience

Positionally dodgy, tends to lose the ball in contact a lot and at Pro12 level relies on his speed a lot to get himself out of difficult situations, an option that won't be open at test level. - while I think you are overegging it a bit, there are possible concerns about ball retention in particular (don't think there is really an issue positionally) - a lot to do with the way Connacht play imo, using his speed in a negative light is a novel way of making your point. We are crying out for speed in the back 3, and he has it in spades

Sure, he's only 25 and needs experience if he's going to crack on, but people were speaking as if he would usurp Kearney and Zebo even with both fit! - a 25 year old, in form, a real leader in the Connacht team that won the Pro 12 last year - he 100% has to be in consideration. The fact that you don't mention his capability in attack is a bit mental - a lot of our issues lately have been with not taking chances, being a bit predictable, not converting opportunities etc - TOH is a good fit to a problem lik e that



If you want a full back who presents the ball well (every single time), is generally in the right place (although some times does the wrong things), but is the most limited option attacking wise by far - then kearney is your man - so much for Leinstertainment though. Personally I'd love to see Zebo backed at full back - in the same way that Ringrose is being backed at 13, but can understand keeping him on the wing as well.

The concept of an inform fast and attacking full back being promoted over a safer ageing option really shouldn't surprise anyone


I'm not 'using his speeed' in a negative light, you've chosen to try make a strawman argument out of what I actually said.

But ironically, what you've accused me of doing (ignoring his good bits) is exactly what then actually do below :lol:
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Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby wixfjord » February 15th, 2017, 4:24 pm

Laighin Break wrote:
I'd have to disagree with your first point. I'm always worried when Kearney gets the ball in the backfield and decides to "attack". He has a tendency to run straight into the first tackler instead of going for space. There was a while there where he gave away a good few penalties doing this as he was then isolated.


This type of comment really amuses me.
Kearney is never going to break the line and run in a try, indeed it's fairly rate that any FB does that at test level these days, but if you watch, what he does well is being positionally in the right place first to catch the ball on the full, then identifying where he needs to attack to give us the best chance of a quick recycle, and more often than not we get quick ball and can play away. Our attack, rightly or wrongly, is based on structure and all the cogs doing their jobs well when it's operating at 100%, so ironically, I think this is one of the things that keeps him in the team, rather than it being this perceived negative.
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Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby the spoofer » February 15th, 2017, 4:32 pm

Golf Man wrote:
fourthirtythree wrote:
wixfjord wrote:You know I'm happy someone else said that, because I thought I was going mad! Really don't get the TOH love in.

He is absolutely nowhere near Kearney or even Zebo's level as a test FB. Positionally dodgy, tends to lose the ball in contact a lot and at Pro12 level relies on his speed a lot to get himself out of difficult situations, an option that won't be open at test level.

Sure, he's only 25 and needs experience if he's going to crack on, but people were speaking as if he would usurp Kearney and Zebo even with both fit!


I think we are a bit skewed in our rating of him having seen him be poor in the RDS.

And also Gilroy: grand for Italy, I'm afraid I wouldn't trust him against France. We're short of people and Trimble is a player who has delivered for Schmidt if not the most eye catching player. So I see Earls, Trimble, Zebo as the most likely. Gilroy to the bench I suspect as he was next cab off the rank last week and didn't exactly harm his chances (though I saw a quote from Schmidt talking about his positioning etc.).

We are not going to beat the French wingers with power and pace, it has to be with nous.


I reckon it will be TOH because he will want someone covering full back, and although Gilroy could do that, I don't think he'd be trusted to do that more so than cover the wing tbh. Once again we need to convert our possession to points - if we manage to get the posession - and you are right we need a bit more nous to do taht - but we really need the pace as well (whatever about teh power)


I don't. We had a full back with a history of back problems and who has had to cry off on match day with back spasms last week and yet TOH was playing in Cardiff. He would have been in Rome if Joe rated him. If Sexton doesn't make it then it will be Zebo FB, Trimble wing, Carbery bench and Marshall bench.
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Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby Laighin Break » February 15th, 2017, 4:44 pm

wixfjord wrote:
Laighin Break wrote:
I'd have to disagree with your first point. I'm always worried when Kearney gets the ball in the backfield and decides to "attack". He has a tendency to run straight into the first tackler instead of going for space. There was a while there where he gave away a good few penalties doing this as he was then isolated.


This type of comment really amuses me.
Kearney is never going to break the line and run in a try, indeed it's fairly rate that any FB does that at test level these days, but if you watch, what he does well is being positionally in the right place first to catch the ball on the full, then identifying where he needs to attack to give us the best chance of a quick recycle, and more often than not we get quick ball and can play away. Our attack, rightly or wrongly, is based on structure and all the cogs doing their jobs well when it's operating at 100%, so ironically, I think this is one of the things that keeps him in the team, rather than it being this perceived negative.


It did not suggest that he should be running in tries, but it actually is quite common for test FBs to attack space rather than run straight into the first player.
When the opposition's chase is good, it can easily give away a kickable penalty.
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Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby wixfjord » February 15th, 2017, 4:55 pm

Laighin Break wrote:
wixfjord wrote:
Laighin Break wrote:
I'd have to disagree with your first point. I'm always worried when Kearney gets the ball in the backfield and decides to "attack". He has a tendency to run straight into the first tackler instead of going for space. There was a while there where he gave away a good few penalties doing this as he was then isolated.


This type of comment really amuses me.
Kearney is never going to break the line and run in a try, indeed it's fairly rate that any FB does that at test level these days, but if you watch, what he does well is being positionally in the right place first to catch the ball on the full, then identifying where he needs to attack to give us the best chance of a quick recycle, and more often than not we get quick ball and can play away. Our attack, rightly or wrongly, is based on structure and all the cogs doing their jobs well when it's operating at 100%, so ironically, I think this is one of the things that keeps him in the team, rather than it being this perceived negative.


It did not suggest that he should be running in tries, but it actually is quite common for test FBs to attack space rather than run straight into the first player.
When the opposition's chase is good, it can easily give away a kickable penalty.


Oh I'm not disagreeing there, and I think TOH and Zebo would and will definitely do that more than RK, but that's not to say it's right or it's what Schmidt wants in his 15. In fact running at 'space' probably results in more pens because you're by definition running away from your support (obviously this is caveated by saying if you're Ben Smith or Folau it's a different story :wink: ). As I say, if you watch RK what he tries to do is to run as fast as he can towards a cluster of retreating Irish forwards rather than away from them. This often gives the same effect as the other tactic, but is safer and allows us to hold the ball.

TOH has a very different approach in a very different Connacht set-up, and this may be one of the reasons why Schmidt doesn't seem to fancy him as much as a 15.

What I'm saying is, what many see as a negative can actually be pre-planned and is seen by the coaching team as a positive.
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Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby Laighin Break » February 16th, 2017, 8:45 am

wixfjord wrote:
Laighin Break wrote:[quote="wixfjord]
This type of comment really amuses me.
Kearney is never going to break the line and run in a try, indeed it's fairly rate that any FB does that at test level these days, but if you watch, what he does well is being positionally in the right place first to catch the ball on the full, then identifying where he needs to attack to give us the best chance of a quick recycle, and more often than not we get quick ball and can play away. Our attack, rightly or wrongly, is based on structure and all the cogs doing their jobs well when it's operating at 100%, so ironically, I think this is one of the things that keeps him in the team, rather than it being this perceived negative.[/quote]

It did not suggest that he should be running in tries, but it actually is quite common for test FBs to attack space rather than run straight into the first player.
When the opposition's chase is good, it can easily give away a kickable penalty.[/quote]

Oh I'm not disagreeing there, and I think TOH and Zebo would and will definitely do that more than RK, but that's not to say it's right or it's what Schmidt wants in his 15. In fact running at 'space' probably results in more pens because you're by definition running away from your support (obviously this is caveated by saying if you're Ben Smith or Folau it's a different story :wink: ). As I say, if you watch RK what he tries to do is to run as fast as he can towards a cluster of retreating Irish forwards rather than away from them. This often gives the same effect as the other tactic, but is safer and allows us to hold the ball.

TOH has a very different approach in a very different Connacht set-up, and this may be one of the reasons why Schmidt doesn't seem to fancy him as much as a 15.

What I'm saying is, what many see as a negative can actually be pre-planned and is seen by the coaching team as a positive.[/quote]



I see your point as to why he would run towards where his forwards are, but I don't get why he doesn't even try to run to the side of the tackler instead of straight into him.
Also, I'd imagine the other lads could learn to do something similar easily enough.
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Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby paddyor » February 16th, 2017, 2:54 pm

wixfjord wrote:
Laighin Break wrote:
I'd have to disagree with your first point. I'm always worried when Kearney gets the ball in the backfield and decides to "attack". He has a tendency to run straight into the first tackler instead of going for space. There was a while there where he gave away a good few penalties doing this as he was then isolated.


This type of comment really amuses me.
Kearney is never going to break the line and run in a try, indeed it's fairly rate that any FB does that at test level these days, but if you watch, what he does well is being positionally in the right place first to catch the ball on the full, then identifying where he needs to attack to give us the best chance of a quick recycle, and more often than not we get quick ball and can play away. Our attack, rightly or wrongly, is based on structure and all the cogs doing their jobs well when it's operating at 100%, so ironically, I think this is one of the things that keeps him in the team, rather than it being this perceived negative.

When Zebo got his chance at 15, there was a lot of running it down dead ends away from the support and then passing it before contact ( putting the recipent in trouble quite often). Fans seem to like this. Of course since he's started playing there more regularly he's realized its not always on and often the best course of action is usually the simplest.
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Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby dropkick » February 16th, 2017, 5:40 pm

The safety first option of a fullback looking to recycle the ball every time he gets it is an opposition coaches dream.
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Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby paddyor » February 16th, 2017, 6:37 pm

dropkick wrote:The safety first option of a fullback looking to recycle the ball every time he gets it is an opposition coaches dream.

You think players susceptible to either getting isolated or getting their team mates isolated (often in there own half) aren't targeted either? Far more to take advantage of there.

cf Willie Le Roux against Ireland 2014 AIs.

I've no problem with a countering threat at 15 but it's not always on. And I would argue it's not most of the time. You're basically waiting for them to screw up with a stray kick or turnover.
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Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby Golf Man » February 17th, 2017, 11:08 am

dropkick wrote:The safety first option of a fullback looking to recycle the ball every time he gets it is an opposition coaches dream.


Completely agree and that is a big issue with Kearney - he never looks to break, and I'm not sure he has the capability to do it in any case - makes life easier for the defence. Nobody is suggesting that you want the full back looking for the big p[lay every time, but you do want someone who can identify when its on and has the ability to act on it - Hogg is a good example I think - he isn't quite as maverick as he used to be and as often as not he recycles the ball - a lot lkot harder to defend against when he has the potential to break

Tbh I'm as concerned about Kearneys attacking in general rather than specifically on kick returns - we know he is not the fastest but he has been making bad decisions - the pass to Zebo v Scotland was highlighted and it was awful, but there are other examples form the first couple of games of bad passing, bad decisions (particularly on failing to draw the man before passing). He is capable of hitting good lines and he is obviously a string runner, but he just doesn't do it enough - he is still obviously a class player but no way should he be in nailed on territory

I'm not sure that having Gilroy on the bench over TOH says a whole lot tbh -> Zebo is the obvious second choice full back and I think he offered plenty of cover.

As regards the comment re fans seeming to like players running down dead ends - not sure why there is a need for a narky comment - I think most fans would agree that we have a bit of an issue regarding a cutting edge - there is enough evidence that we do have issues from time to time of turning possession into tries - suggesting taht selecting players who are more likley to turn possession into points isn't exactly groundbreaking. Suggesting it when the players other attributes (defence and stability) are no worse than the incumbent seems like common sense
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Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby Ruckedtobits » February 17th, 2017, 2:26 pm

I think you need to review Rob Kearney's yardage and line breaks in first two 6N games before co.plaining about his counter attack he has made more yards that Brown or Halpenny and is 2nd best FB to Hogg in line breaks in 6N thusfar.

There is a perception he doesn't play well from the back with ball in hand which has never been shared by any coach he has had.
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Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby Ruckedtobits » February 17th, 2017, 2:27 pm

Ruckedtobits wrote:I think you need to review Rob Kearney's yardage and line breaks in first two 6N games before complaining about his counter attack he has made more yards that Brown or Halpenny and is 2nd best FB to Hogg in line breaks in 6N thusfar.

There is a perception he doesn't play well from the back with ball in hand which has never been shared by any coach he has had.
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Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby Laighin Break » February 17th, 2017, 2:28 pm

2 games isn't large enough sample size
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Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby paddyor » February 17th, 2017, 2:57 pm

Golf Man wrote:
dropkick wrote:The safety first option of a fullback looking to recycle the ball every time he gets it is an opposition coaches dream.


Completely agree and that is a big issue with Kearney - he never looks to break, and I'm not sure he has the capability to do it in any case - makes life easier for the defence. Nobody is suggesting that you want the full back looking for the big p[lay every time, but you do want someone who can identify when its on and has the ability to act on it - Hogg is a good example I think - he isn't quite as maverick as he used to be and as often as not he recycles the ball - a lot lkot harder to defend against when he has the potential to break

Tbh I'm as concerned about Kearneys attacking in general rather than specifically on kick returns - we know he is not the fastest but he has been making bad decisions - the pass to Zebo v Scotland was highlighted and it was awful, but there are other examples form the first couple of games of bad passing, bad decisions (particularly on failing to draw the man before passing). He is capable of hitting good lines and he is obviously a string runner, but he just doesn't do it enough - he is still obviously a class player but no way should he be in nailed on territory

I'm not sure that having Gilroy on the bench over TOH says a whole lot tbh -> Zebo is the obvious second choice full back and I think he offered plenty of cover.

As regards the comment re fans seeming to like players running down dead ends - not sure why there is a need for a narky comment - I think most fans would agree that we have a bit of an issue regarding a cutting edge - there is enough evidence that we do have issues from time to time of turning possession into tries - suggesting taht selecting players who are more likley to turn possession into points isn't exactly groundbreaking. Suggesting it when the players other attributes (defence and stability) are no worse than the incumbent seems like common sense

It was condescending not narky. Anyway it went over your head.

And yes some fans think a dillane henderson partnership in the 2nd row is/was the way to go despite neither of them calling a lineout .

Its a nonsense claim really. For the life of me i cant remember anyone salivating at the prospect of playing against halfpenny.
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Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby Golf Man » February 17th, 2017, 4:59 pm

paddyor wrote:It was condescending not narky. Anyway it went over your head.

And yes some fans think a dillane henderson partnership in the 2nd row is/was the way to go despite neither of them calling a lineout .

Its a nonsense claim really. For the life of me i cant remember anyone salivating at the prospect of playing against halfpenny.


So just some petty sniping either way - fair enough

Dillane/Henderson - not sure there is a comparison to be had there

Halfpenny - as threatening in attack these days as Kearney - much much better in defence however

Funny to see Leinster fans talking this way - you have a 34 year old full back at the moment, who is about as good a FB as I've seen - who oozes class in attack and defence, and you are dismissing people for suggesting that Ireland shoudl be looking for something similar
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Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby paddyor » February 17th, 2017, 6:15 pm

Golf Man wrote:
paddyor wrote:It was condescending not narky. Anyway it went over your head.

And yes some fans think a dillane henderson partnership in the 2nd row is/was the way to go despite neither of them calling a lineout .

Its a nonsense claim really. For the life of me i cant remember anyone salivating at the prospect of playing against halfpenny.


So just some petty sniping either way - fair enough

Dillane/Henderson - not sure there is a comparison to be had there

Halfpenny - as threatening in attack these days as Kearney - much much better in defence however

Funny to see Leinster fans talking this way - you have a 34 year old full back at the moment, who is about as good a FB as I've seen - who oozes class in attack and defence, and you are dismissing people for suggesting that Ireland shoudl be looking for something similar

Where exactly are you off to with those goalposts? Just having a bit of a wander?

It's mostly just me btw but if you think it's funny then knock yourself out.
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