Italy v Ireland 2017

Forum for the discussion of all International Rugby

Moderator: moderators

Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby Fred Funk » February 6th, 2017, 1:56 pm

Onwards and hopefully upwards.
Maybe some subtle changes in the 15/23.
Donnacha Ryan for starters.
What about the back 3? Trimble TOH?
Defence needs work.
User avatar
Fred Funk
Mullet
 
Posts: 1260
Joined: March 7th, 2006, 10:54 am
Location: Ashtown

Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby tingman » February 6th, 2017, 2:21 pm

Not much we should change.....Ryan for Henderson the obvious one.....i expect a big response from us.....Italy were a shambles against Wales..
tingman
Beginner
 
Posts: 44
Joined: January 12th, 2017, 2:10 pm

Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby Golf Man » February 6th, 2017, 2:41 pm

On the assumption that POM and Sexton aren't fit

McGRath/Best/Furlong
Toner/Ryan
Stander/VDF/Heaslip
Murray/Jackson
Henshaw/Ringrose
Trimble/Zebo/Earls

Scannell/Kilcoyne/Ryan/Henderson/SOB/Marmion/Keatley/TOH

Looking at the 40 man squad we really should have had at least one other winger in there, especially after Conway got injured.

If Trimble in't available I'd nearly start TOH but it will be Kearney without doubt
Golf Man
Girvan Dempsey
 
Posts: 2033
Joined: November 2nd, 2010, 2:00 pm

Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby the spoofer » February 6th, 2017, 3:19 pm

Golf Man wrote:On the assumption that POM and Sexton aren't fit

McGRath/Best/Furlong
Toner/Ryan
Stander/VDF/Heaslip
Murray/Jackson
Henshaw/Ringrose
Trimble/Zebo/Earls

Scannell/Kilcoyne/Ryan/Henderson/SOB/Marmion/Keatley/TOH

Looking at the 40 man squad we really should have had at least one other winger in there, especially after Conway got injured.

If Trimble in't available I'd nearly start TOH but it will be Kearney without doubt


You obviously rate Kilcoyne more than I do. Great around the field but poor at his primary duty.
User avatar
the spoofer
Girvan Dempsey
 
Posts: 2163
Joined: February 17th, 2006, 6:35 pm
Location: Leinster West

Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby wixfjord » February 6th, 2017, 3:31 pm

Why would you drop Healy when he's coming into form?
Not a hope, unless Joe has had a serious change of heart on Kilcoyne.
wixfjord
Malcolm O'Kelly
 
Posts: 3118
Joined: April 13th, 2009, 1:00 pm

Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby Golf Man » February 6th, 2017, 4:31 pm

Munsters scrum has been very dominant this year and a key strength for us in Europe - Kilcoyne is part of that - he has about 70% of the playing time of the looseheads. Scannell and Ryan tend to stay on the field a bit longer as obviously Kilcoyne is used more in open play

Kilcoyne is not a great scrummager, but you simply can't ignore that he has been a key part of a successful scrum this year. From what I have seen this year he has offered far more than Healy around the pitch.

Suggesting Healy has to be kept on (he has been coming into form for a long time now) is exactly the kind of thing that we shouldn't be doing - he had little or no impact at the weekend - he seems to be one of those who will be in no matter the form - and thats a bad position to be in. Healy at his peak gets into probably every team in the world - Healy now - not so much. Why not change it?? Why not give a guy who has been in form a chance and give some of the established guys something to think about.
Golf Man
Girvan Dempsey
 
Posts: 2033
Joined: November 2nd, 2010, 2:00 pm

Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » February 6th, 2017, 4:34 pm

I don't really get why people mention Kilcoyne's scrummaging. It might not be a strength, but I really don't see it as a weakness either.
User avatar
LeRouxIsPHat
Shane Horgan
 
Posts: 10384
Joined: January 22nd, 2009, 8:49 pm

Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby All Blacks nil » February 6th, 2017, 5:13 pm

wixfjord wrote:Why would you drop Healy when he's coming into form?
Not a hope, unless Joe has had a serious change of heart on Kilcoyne.



I think Joe will have to have a serious change of heart about Healy first.
Don't see it happening.

When you get some decent carries out of your front five, it creates a little more space for the likes of Stander and SOB to carry. Apart from Furlong the rest of the starting front five carried for a total of 14 metres in 26 carries. Henderson made little impact and ended up practically hiding from the responsibility. His 2 metres in six carries was a poor return for a man selected for that ability. it isn't the 2 metres I'm worried about but more the fact that he wasn't looking for ball. No threat meant they could wait for CJ and SOB.
We need more ball carriers if we want to play bish bash bosh rugby.

Also if you want to dominate the lineout you pick lineout forwards.
As was well flagged by Murray Kinsella during the week a high percentage of our scores originate from the lineout. I'm sure the Scots had their own homework done and didn't just chance upon a random article on the 42.ie. Stop the lineout, and Ireland are looking at scraps.
Last edited by All Blacks nil on February 6th, 2017, 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
All Blacks nil
Mullet
 
Posts: 1920
Joined: December 15th, 2013, 11:52 pm

Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby paddyor » February 6th, 2017, 5:24 pm

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:I don't really get why people mention Kilcoyne's scrummaging. It might not be a strength, but I really don't see it as a weakness either.

He has a repuation with refs for scrum resets and yellow cards. Thats the problem.
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014
Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
paddyor
Girvan Dempsey
 
Posts: 2974
Joined: November 17th, 2012, 12:48 am

Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby neiliog93 » February 6th, 2017, 8:41 pm

I don't think Kilcoyne coming in would do much damage, but I don't see how much better he'd be than Healy for 20 minutes off the bench. He really has a tendency to scrum in at an angle, which you only sometimes get away with. Good ball carrier though. Bit of a 'meh' call either, so knowing Joe, it's probably not gonna happen.

If Trimble is fit he should come back in, he'd tighten up our shaky wide defence. Despite the hatred towards him, Kearney was our best outside back against Scotland, so it would be Earls or Zebo to lose out.

Donnacha Ryan should come back in for Henderson. Will help with the line out and nuts and bolts forward play, which was lacking against Scotland.

From what we've heard, neither POM nor Sexton will be available, but should be ok for France. In all honesty VDF's worst period of form in the last two years has come in the last couple of months and SOB made a couple of good breaks vs Scotland and needs game time to fully get his mojo back, so I'd start him again.

1.J.McGrath 2.Best 3.Furlong

4.D.Ryan 5.Toner

6.Stander 8.Heaslip 7.SOB

9.Murray 10.Jackson 12.Henshaw 13.Ringrose 14.Zebo

11.Trimble 15.R.Kearney

16.N.Scannell 17.Healy 18.J.Ryan 19.Henderson/Dillane 20.VDF 21.Marmion 22.Keatley 23.Bowe/Earls
"This is breathless stuff.....it's on again. Contepomi out to Hickie,D'Arcy,Hickie.......................HICKIE FOR THE CORNER! THAT IS AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
User avatar
neiliog93
Malcolm O'Kelly
 
Posts: 3199
Joined: April 12th, 2008, 11:42 am

Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby simonokeeffe » February 6th, 2017, 10:16 pm

Parrisse a doubt for Italy apparently with a kneck injury, though reading between the lines the papers are exaggerating it a little
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
User avatar
simonokeeffe
Leo Cullen
 
Posts: 16132
Joined: July 21st, 2011, 3:04 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby Fred Funk » February 6th, 2017, 11:28 pm

simonokeeffe wrote:Parrisse a doubt for Italy apparently with a kneck injury, though reading between the lines the papers are exaggerating it a little


He was as usual by far their best player, without him they will be a shambles.
User avatar
Fred Funk
Mullet
 
Posts: 1260
Joined: March 7th, 2006, 10:54 am
Location: Ashtown

Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby kermischocolate » February 6th, 2017, 11:52 pm

Fred Funk wrote:
simonokeeffe wrote:Parrisse a doubt for Italy apparently with a kneck injury, though reading between the lines the papers are exaggerating it a little


He was as usual by far their best player, without him they will be a shambles.


I'm sure I've seen a stat somewhere that Italy have won more games without Parisse than with him.
Not that I'm expecting them to win on saturday, obviously.
User avatar
kermischocolate
Enlightened
 
Posts: 986
Joined: May 17th, 2009, 2:56 am
Location: Glasgow

Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby Xanthippe » February 7th, 2017, 3:04 am

kermischocolate wrote:
I'm sure I've seen a stat somewhere that Italy have won more games without Parisse than with him.
Not that I'm expecting them to win on saturday, obviously.


Here's a piece I did on Parisse back in 2013 when he was on 93 caps. He has 122 now so if I get a chance I'll update the tables later.


Xanthippe wrote:
Parisse has played 93 games for Italy - they are broken down below by country

Image

Italy have played 26 games without Parisse and those results, by country played are detailed below

Image

#LiveLifeLoveLeinster

#BeSeenBeHeardBeBlueBELIEVE



I'm a Book Mark and damn proud of it. Storm 1:08 forever
User avatar
Xanthippe
Malcolm O'Kelly
 
Posts: 3378
Joined: September 5th, 2008, 6:48 pm

Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby Golf Man » February 7th, 2017, 9:13 am

Is it not suggestive of a problem if a coach has to have a serious change of heart on a sub, in order to make a change? Healy should be providing big impact - he simply hasn't been doing it, and no player should be so comfortable that if he isn't performing that he is retained. Obviously Healy has huge credit in the bank - but lets be honest he is not the player he was. I've no problem with him playing (and it could just as easily be Buckley getting a shot, rather than Kilcoyne) but he should not be in the position of being nailed on - its a bad environment when players are that guaranteed their spots - not like we haven't seen evidence of this before.

The Schmidt review sessions surely should be supplemented by consequences if guys aren't performing their roles
Golf Man
Girvan Dempsey
 
Posts: 2033
Joined: November 2nd, 2010, 2:00 pm

Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby munster#1 » February 7th, 2017, 9:58 am

A big issue with Joe and his crew, is often it's harder to get out of his squad than in it.
It is usually fairly easy to guess the team/squad he will pick. He has his team set in stone, and when they are fit they play.

Which is why Ireland found themselves in a position last weekend where we had 3 unused subs, despite the fact that the players on the field were running out of steam. Joe obviously didn't believe that they were better than an exhausted first choice player.

Over the last few months we have all read articles about the current depth available in Irish rugby, but that is meaningless unless that depth in used.

This is Italy, and we will most likely cruise to victory over an Italy team minus their beat player and following a quick turn around from a high attrition game against Wales. But yet we will see no obvious rotation in our starting team, and unlikely to see many changes to the squad.

To develop a squad you have to give players meaningful minutes.
User avatar
munster#1
Malcolm O'Kelly
 
Posts: 3927
Joined: June 18th, 2009, 3:47 pm

Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby Laighin Break » February 7th, 2017, 10:42 am

simonokeeffe wrote:Parrisse a doubt for Italy apparently with a kneck injury, though reading between the lines the papers are exaggerating it a little


Ah the old silent 'k' in neck :lol:
Laighin Break
Knowledgeable
 
Posts: 461
Joined: May 3rd, 2012, 9:35 am
Location: Scandinavia

Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby Golf Man » February 7th, 2017, 10:55 am

munster#1 wrote:A big issue with Joe and his crew, is often it's harder to get out of his squad than in it.
It is usually fairly easy to guess the team/squad he will pick. He has his team set in stone, and when they are fit they play.

Which is why Ireland found themselves in a position last weekend where we had 3 unused subs, despite the fact that the players on the field were running out of steam. Joe obviously didn't believe that they were better than an exhausted first choice player.

Over the last few months we have all read articles about the current depth available in Irish rugby, but that is meaningless unless that depth in used.

This is Italy, and we will most likely cruise to victory over an Italy team minus their beat player and following a quick turn around from a high attrition game against Wales. But yet we will see no obvious rotation in our starting team, and unlikely to see many changes to the squad.

To develop a squad you have to give players meaningful minutes.


Much the same happened with Kidney in fairness - and then he started a raft of changes too late. Someone made a good point on Best, although that said it is asking a lot for a hooker to go 80 minutes. I really thpought that Marmion should have been brought on - Murray has a huge workload in every game and if it isn't quite clicking, as it wasn't last week then he should have brought on the fresh option. Instead he brought on Bowe who didn't have an impact and I think that was pretty foreseeable tbh

It does appear that McGrath/Best/Toner/SOB/Heaslip/Murray/Sexton/Henshaw/Kearney will start no matter what - majority of them its not really an issue, but not all of them (I'm not including Furlong and Stander at this point in this list). I don't think any of the others are completely nailed down (although not far off) and thats what annoys me about his continued refusal to look at other options as the LH bench option - Healy at this point in time is simpoly not in teh same category as some of the others listed wrt importance to the team, available alternatives etc -> he dropped Bealham for Ryan - I don't think Bealham did anything particularly to deserve to be dropped but its good to see - as you say that is actualkly developing depth - not just claiming we have it. Woudl be no harm at all to do the same elsewhere - good players tend to respond well to this (Heaslip when Stander came into the team is a prime example - his Irish appearances have been on a different level since Stander came onto the team)
Golf Man
Girvan Dempsey
 
Posts: 2033
Joined: November 2nd, 2010, 2:00 pm

Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby Hornet » February 7th, 2017, 11:04 am

Laighin Break wrote:
simonokeeffe wrote:Parrisse a doubt for Italy apparently with a kneck injury, though reading between the lines the papers are exaggerating it a little


Ah the old silent 'k' in neck :lol:


I read it as keck injury! He should be alright once he's changed them! :lol:
"The one thing we learn from History, is that we never learn from History".
Hornet
Mullet
 
Posts: 1848
Joined: January 21st, 2007, 8:48 pm
Location: 32,000 feet over Liverpool

Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby suisse » February 7th, 2017, 11:11 am

munster#1 wrote:Over the last few months we have all read articles about the current depth available in Irish rugby, but that is meaningless unless that depth in used.


I don't think it is Joe's fault that the media are continually talking about depth. We've always had this same problem; in two or three positions, we have no back up and are left preying for miracles recoveries (BOD in 07). Hayes, ROG, BOD were all without a replacement. Then Mike Ross. Now Best and Conor Murray.
User avatar
suisse
Rob Kearney
 
Posts: 4660
Joined: April 2nd, 2007, 12:23 am
Location: Seoul, South Korea

Next

Return to International Rugby

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: AhrefsBot [Bot], SemrushBot [Bot] and 3 guests