Italy v Ireland 2017

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Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby Ruckedtobits » February 15th, 2017, 9:49 am

Total surmise, but the more I think about Gilroy's selection, the more convinced I become that it was a once-off for the Italy match, designed to use his speed and elusiveness in the last quarter against an Italian team expected to be on the ropes by that point.

His defensive abilities, as demonstrated against Italy twice, are nowhere close to what's needed against any of the big and quick French back three or substitute Huget.

Trimble fills the needs for the more orthodox role Joe wants from his wingers with big exphasis on physicality, which even Earls provides when necessary. Sweetnam is getting there and Adeloluken has many of the requirements as does Dave Kearney. It's probably too early for any suggestion of his return, particularly having missed all the camps through November and January.

Tiarnon O'Halloran might however finally come into the frame. His form has been excellent. He can initiate counter-attacks. He is a good tackler. He is dependable under the high ball. He is a very accurate kick chaser - both elements and, he has been in camp.

Zebo gives Ireland his best from winger, not full-back. Earls is taking his try-scoring chances with regularity. Trimble has physicality and a great presence defensively for Ireland and nobody enjoys marking him. Those three, plus O'Halloran, would provide the elements than we need from our back three against the threats, and opportunities, presented by the French.
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Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby fourthirtythree » February 15th, 2017, 10:03 am

Golf Man wrote:Gilroy has played plenty at full back

The exciting selection is actually Zebo/TOH/Earls with Gilroy on the bench

Not a hope that will be what is selected though




Good. Because we would be hammered by France. Absolutely hosed.
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Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby Golf Man » February 15th, 2017, 12:38 pm

Ruckedtobits wrote:Total surmise, but the more I think about Gilroy's selection, the more convinced I become that it was a once-off for the Italy match, designed to use his speed and elusiveness in the last quarter against an Italian team expected to be on the ropes by that point.

His defensive abilities, as demonstrated against Italy twice, are nowhere close to what's needed against any of the big and quick French back three or substitute Huget.

Trimble fills the needs for the more orthodox role Joe wants from his wingers with big exphasis on physicality, which even Earls provides when necessary. Sweetnam is getting there and Adeloluken has many of the requirements as does Dave Kearney. It's probably too early for any suggestion of his return, particularly having missed all the camps through November and January.

Tiarnon O'Halloran might however finally come into the frame. His form has been excellent. He can initiate counter-attacks. He is a good tackler. He is dependable under the high ball. He is a very accurate kick chaser - both elements and, he has been in camp.

Zebo gives Ireland his best from winger, not full-back. Earls is taking his try-scoring chances with regularity. Trimble has physicality and a great presence defensively for Ireland and nobody enjoys marking him. Those three, plus O'Halloran, would provide the elements than we need from our back three against the threats, and opportunities, presented by the French.


personally i think that Gilroy got the nod as full back was essentially covered by Zebo, so a winger was more required on the bench (he doesn't seem to have looked at the option of Ringrose covering wing and having someone like Marshall on the bench to cover 12 and 13). If Zebo moves to fb then O Halloran is more likley on the bench because their won't be a full back replacement on the pitch. Not sure if you are suggesting TOH starting with what you've said about Zebo. I can see him on the bench, but defionitely can't see hims starting - with one of Earls/Trimble/Zebo on the bench
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Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby Golf Man » February 15th, 2017, 12:48 pm

fourthirtythree wrote:
Golf Man wrote:Gilroy has played plenty at full back

The exciting selection is actually Zebo/TOH/Earls with Gilroy on the bench

Not a hope that will be what is selected though




Good. Because we would be hammered by France. Absolutely hosed.


Any more than Zebo/Kearney/Earls?, or Trimble/Zebo/Earls - Appreciate that TOH hasn't played at this level, but its not a leap at this point in time to suggest that TOH is as solid defensively as Kearney at 15.

If Kearney is out then the only options are Zebo or TOH at full back, with Trimble, Zebo, Earls, Gilroy in realistic contention for the 4 spots in the 23 (assuming Conway isn't an option)

Common sense and experience will tell you that Schmidt will want a backup 15 available - thats probably TOH or possibly Gilroy. At least 3 of those 4 are going to be in the 23, with Trimble probably coming in for the other. You might have some concerns defensively (Gilroy is who I would be really concerned with) but ypou would be confident in your attack

I wouldn't rule it out just yet and would definitely be exciting to see
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Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby Oldschool » February 15th, 2017, 1:28 pm

Golf Man wrote:
fourthirtythree wrote:
Golf Man wrote:Gilroy has played plenty at full back

The exciting selection is actually Zebo/TOH/Earls with Gilroy on the bench

Not a hope that will be what is selected though




Good. Because we would be hammered by France. Absolutely hosed.


Any more than Zebo/Kearney/Earls?, or Trimble/Zebo/Earls - Appreciate that TOH hasn't played at this level, but its not a leap at this point in time to suggest that TOH is as solid defensively as Kearney at 15.

If Kearney is out then the only options are Zebo or TOH at full back, with Trimble, Zebo, Earls, Gilroy in realistic contention for the 4 spots in the 23 (assuming Conway isn't an option)

Common sense and experience will tell you that Schmidt will want a backup 15 available - thats probably TOH or possibly Gilroy. At least 3 of those 4 are going to be in the 23, with Trimble probably coming in for the other. You might have some concerns defensively (Gilroy is who I would be really concerned with) but ypou would be confident in your attack

I wouldn't rule it out just yet and would definitely be exciting to see

Stop pretending Earls doesn't have defensive issues.
It's the main reason he's now considered only a winger.
Your analysis in terms of BT personal is probably correct.
Zebo Trimble and Earls the likely starters with TOH on the bench.
I doubt DK will come into contention but without a doubt Joe rates him highly and he also seems to have the knack of being able to hit the ground running.
Equally as interesting will be Joe's BR.
He could easily go with Stander VDF and Heaslip and spring Henderson from the bench but it's more likely SOB will start with VDF on the bench.
Joe will have analysed France at this stage and that will influence his selection to an extent.
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Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby paddyor » February 15th, 2017, 1:42 pm

Ruckedtobits wrote:Total surmise, but the more I think about Gilroy's selection, the more convinced I become that it was a once-off for the Italy match, designed to use his speed and elusiveness in the last quarter against an Italian team expected to be on the ropes by that point.

His defensive abilities, as demonstrated against Italy twice, are nowhere close to what's needed against any of the big and quick French back three or substitute Huget.

Trimble fills the needs for the more orthodox role Joe wants from his wingers with big exphasis on physicality, which even Earls provides when necessary. Sweetnam is getting there and Adeloluken has many of the requirements as does Dave Kearney. It's probably too early for any suggestion of his return, particularly having missed all the camps through November and January.

Tiarnon O'Halloran might however finally come into the frame. His form has been excellent. He can initiate counter-attacks. He is a good tackler. He is dependable under the high ball. He is a very accurate kick chaser - both elements and, he has been in camp.

Zebo gives Ireland his best from winger, not full-back. Earls is taking his try-scoring chances with regularity. Trimble has physicality and a great presence defensively for Ireland and nobody enjoys marking him. Those three, plus O'Halloran, would provide the elements than we need from our back three against the threats, and opportunities, presented by the French.

I thought that was missing against Scotland too. Bowe had little impact on the game. We'd a few half chances there we didn't score. If you batter any team with as many carrys as we did holes will appear, far more pronounced vs Italy but happened against Scotland too.
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Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby Laighin Break » February 15th, 2017, 1:49 pm

Oldschool wrote:Stop pretending Earls doesn't have defensive issues.
It's the main reason he's now considered only a winger.
Your analysis in terms of BT personal is probably correct.
Zebo Trimble and Earls the likely starters with TOH on the bench.
I doubt DK will come into contention but without a doubt Joe rates him highly and he also seems to have the knack of being able to hit the ground running.
Equally as interesting will be Joe's BR.
He could easily go with Stander VDF and Heaslip and spring Henderson from the bench but it's more likely SOB will start with VDF on the bench.
Joe will have analysed France at this stage and that will influence his selection to an extent.


I'd say, thanks to his performance against them in the World Cup, there isn't a chance that SOB won't be starting this game. I'd say he'll almost be first name down.
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Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby suisse » February 15th, 2017, 1:50 pm

simonokeeffe wrote:If anyone was playing Cummiskey bingo on MNR a dig at Stander and plug of Blackrock College made it in the first two sentences on how to improve Italian rugby


I listened to it this morning. I've tended to move away from Newstalk for their rugby content recently but decided to go back on. He wasn't acting really sour this time though, sniping like a brat just as he was when BOD when beside him. The part that annoys me is the snort he always does... "this guy (snort, chuckle) is gonna be the best in the world, ya know what I mean."

Did Cummiskey really say on the radio last week that he asked Toland in Murrayfield if it was legal for Scotland to have a centre in the line out? I thought I heard him say that.
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Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby simonokeeffe » February 15th, 2017, 1:51 pm

Gilroy's biggest weaknesses are his positioning and kicking, so I dont like the ide aof him playing there for Ireland, have seen him play there for Ulster and it wasnt pretty defensively
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
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Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby Golf Man » February 15th, 2017, 1:54 pm

Oldschool wrote:

Stop pretending Earls doesn't have defensive issues.
It's the main reason he's now considered only a winger.
Your analysis in terms of BT personal is probably correct.
Zebo Trimble and Earls the likely starters with TOH on the bench.
I doubt DK will come into contention but without a doubt Joe rates him highly and he also seems to have the knack of being able to hit the ground running.
Equally as interesting will be Joe's BR.
He could easily go with Stander VDF and Heaslip and spring Henderson from the bench but it's more likely SOB will start with VDF on the bench.
Joe will have analysed France at this stage and that will influence his selection to an extent.


I literally made no reference to Earls defence - good or bad - you are losing it old bean - its not the reason he is proimarily a winger by the way - he is simply better out there - he is our best finisher still imo and both Ireland and Munster have always got teh best out of him when he was out wide

Trimble is probably now our best defensive back 3 player, even though he is prone to mistakes from time to time - of the others (Zebo, Earls, Gilroy, TOH, Kearney, Conway, Bowe) - would have thought Earls rates fairly highly on that list tbh

DK shouldn't be within an asses roar - I know you are trolling but still there are still some things shouldn't be said

Wouldn't be at all surprised to see POM on the bench v France - bit like SOB he has form v them
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Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby Oldschool » February 15th, 2017, 2:40 pm

Golf Man wrote:
Oldschool wrote:

Stop pretending Earls doesn't have defensive issues.
It's the main reason he's now considered only a winger.
Your analysis in terms of BT personal is probably correct.
Zebo Trimble and Earls the likely starters with TOH on the bench.
I doubt DK will come into contention but without a doubt Joe rates him highly and he also seems to have the knack of being able to hit the ground running.
Equally as interesting will be Joe's BR.
He could easily go with Stander VDF and Heaslip and spring Henderson from the bench but it's more likely SOB will start with VDF on the bench.
Joe will have analysed France at this stage and that will influence his selection to an extent.


I literally made no reference to Earls defence - good or bad - you are losing it old bean - its not the reason he is proimarily a winger by the way - he is simply better out there - he is our best finisher still imo and both Ireland and Munster have always got teh best out of him when he was out wide

Trimble is probably now our best defensive back 3 player, even though he is prone to mistakes from time to time - of the others (Zebo, Earls, Gilroy, TOH, Kearney, Conway, Bowe) - would have thought Earls rates fairly highly on that list tbh

DK shouldn't be within an asses roar - I know you are trolling but still there are still some things shouldn't be said

Wouldn't be at all surprised to see POM on the bench v France - bit like SOB he has form v them

You said you were worried about Gilroy's and thus implied you'd no concerns re Earls'.
You again in the above post implied there's nothing to choose between Earls' defence compared to a long list.
If you believe that then good for you.
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Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby the spoofer » February 15th, 2017, 3:28 pm

fourthirtythree wrote:
Golf Man wrote:Gilroy has played plenty at full back

The exciting selection is actually Zebo/TOH/Earls with Gilroy on the bench

Not a hope that will be what is selected though




Good. Because we would be hammered by France. Absolutely hosed.


It's amazing the number of people who must watch a lot of rugby and include TOH in teams. Coaches at the top level who are serious about winning do not pick flakey full backs.
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Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby wixfjord » February 15th, 2017, 3:34 pm

the spoofer wrote:
It's amazing the number of people who must watch a lot of rugby and include TOH in teams. Coaches at the top level who are serious about winning do not pick flakey full backs.


You know I'm happy someone else said that, because I thought I was going mad! Really don't get the TOH love in.

He is absolutely nowhere near Kearney or even Zebo's level as a test FB. Positionally dodgy, tends to lose the ball in contact a lot and at Pro12 level relies on his speed a lot to get himself out of difficult situations, an option that won't be open at test level.

Sure, he's only 25 and needs experience if he's going to crack on, but people were speaking as if he would usurp Kearney and Zebo even with both fit!
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Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby Oldschool » February 15th, 2017, 3:38 pm

wixfjord wrote:
the spoofer wrote:
It's amazing the number of people who must watch a lot of rugby and include TOH in teams. Coaches at the top level who are serious about winning do not pick flakey full backs.


You know I'm happy someone else said that, because I thought I was going mad! Really don't get the TOH love in.

He is absolutely nowhere near Kearney or even Zebo's level as a test FB. Positionally dodgy, tends to lose the ball in contact a lot and at Pro12 level relies on his speed a lot to get himself out of difficult situations, an option that won't be open at test level.

Sure, he's only 25 and needs experience if he's going to crack on, but people were speaking as if he would usurp Kearney and Zebo even with both fit!

The "people" you're referring to are Munster posters.
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Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby Golf Man » February 15th, 2017, 3:41 pm

Oldschool wrote:
Golf Man wrote:
Oldschool wrote:

Stop pretending Earls doesn't have defensive issues.
It's the main reason he's now considered only a winger.
Your analysis in terms of BT personal is probably correct.
Zebo Trimble and Earls the likely starters with TOH on the bench.
I doubt DK will come into contention but without a doubt Joe rates him highly and he also seems to have the knack of being able to hit the ground running.
Equally as interesting will be Joe's BR.
He could easily go with Stander VDF and Heaslip and spring Henderson from the bench but it's more likely SOB will start with VDF on the bench.
Joe will have analysed France at this stage and that will influence his selection to an extent.


I literally made no reference to Earls defence - good or bad - you are losing it old bean - its not the reason he is proimarily a winger by the way - he is simply better out there - he is our best finisher still imo and both Ireland and Munster have always got teh best out of him when he was out wide

Trimble is probably now our best defensive back 3 player, even though he is prone to mistakes from time to time - of the others (Zebo, Earls, Gilroy, TOH, Kearney, Conway, Bowe) - would have thought Earls rates fairly highly on that list tbh

DK shouldn't be within an asses roar - I know you are trolling but still there are still some things shouldn't be said

Wouldn't be at all surprised to see POM on the bench v France - bit like SOB he has form v them

You said you were worried about Gilroy's and thus implied you'd no concerns re Earls'.
You again in the above post implied there's nothing to choose between Earls' defence compared to a long list.
If you believe that then good for you.


I implied nothing - you took issue, where there was no issue to be taken. Look at the list O I gave again - the back 3 options in the squad - who do you think Earls is more of a defenive liability than? Not saying that he is a colossus in defence, but he is not a weakness either

Bowe - his former self of course, but Bowe now???
Zebo - if anything he got more flak than Earls - he has improved immensely but I still would talk Earls defensively over him
Gilroy - no contest
TOH/Conway - on the face of it both are pretty good defensively, but entirely untested at this level - would be concerned about Conway in particular
Kearney - one of the best positionally, the worst tackler of them all though

You presumably think that Earls defence is a worse than the guys on this list - not a hope in hell - just another example of you making everything a bunfight
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Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby fourthirtythree » February 15th, 2017, 3:59 pm

wixfjord wrote:
the spoofer wrote:
It's amazing the number of people who must watch a lot of rugby and include TOH in teams. Coaches at the top level who are serious about winning do not pick flakey full backs.


You know I'm happy someone else said that, because I thought I was going mad! Really don't get the TOH love in.

He is absolutely nowhere near Kearney or even Zebo's level as a test FB. Positionally dodgy, tends to lose the ball in contact a lot and at Pro12 level relies on his speed a lot to get himself out of difficult situations, an option that won't be open at test level.

Sure, he's only 25 and needs experience if he's going to crack on, but people were speaking as if he would usurp Kearney and Zebo even with both fit!


I think we are a bit skewed in our rating of him having seen him be poor in the RDS.

And also Gilroy: grand for Italy, I'm afraid I wouldn't trust him against France. We're short of people and Trimble is a player who has delivered for Schmidt if not the most eye catching player. So I see Earls, Trimble, Zebo as the most likely. Gilroy to the bench I suspect as he was next cab off the rank last week and didn't exactly harm his chances (though I saw a quote from Schmidt talking about his positioning etc.).

We are not going to beat the French wingers with power and pace, it has to be with nous.
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Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby wixfjord » February 15th, 2017, 4:04 pm

Oldschool wrote:
wixfjord wrote:
the spoofer wrote:
It's amazing the number of people who must watch a lot of rugby and include TOH in teams. Coaches at the top level who are serious about winning do not pick flakey full backs.


You know I'm happy someone else said that, because I thought I was going mad! Really don't get the TOH love in.

He is absolutely nowhere near Kearney or even Zebo's level as a test FB. Positionally dodgy, tends to lose the ball in contact a lot and at Pro12 level relies on his speed a lot to get himself out of difficult situations, an option that won't be open at test level.

Sure, he's only 25 and needs experience if he's going to crack on, but people were speaking as if he would usurp Kearney and Zebo even with both fit!

The "people" you're referring to are Munster posters.


No, they're not. Enough of your petty nonsense please.
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Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby Golf Man » February 15th, 2017, 4:06 pm

wixfjord wrote:
the spoofer wrote:
It's amazing the number of people who must watch a lot of rugby and include TOH in teams. Coaches at the top level who are serious about winning do not pick flakey full backs.


You know I'm happy someone else said that, because I thought I was going mad! Really don't get the TOH love in.

He is absolutely nowhere near Kearney or even Zebo's level as a test FB. - he has a total of 117 minutes as a test player, with 80 of those against Canada - not sure you can really make a statement based on his experience

Positionally dodgy, tends to lose the ball in contact a lot and at Pro12 level relies on his speed a lot to get himself out of difficult situations, an option that won't be open at test level. - while I think you are overegging it a bit, there are possible concerns about ball retention in particular (don't think there is really an issue positionally) - a lot to do with the way Connacht play imo, using his speed in a negative light is a novel way of making your point. We are crying out for speed in the back 3, and he has it in spades

Sure, he's only 25 and needs experience if he's going to crack on, but people were speaking as if he would usurp Kearney and Zebo even with both fit! - a 25 year old, in form, a real leader in the Connacht team that won the Pro 12 last year - he 100% has to be in consideration. The fact that you don't mention his capability in attack is a bit mental - a lot of our issues lately have been with not taking chances, being a bit predictable, not converting opportunities etc - TOH is a good fit to a problem lik e that



If you want a full back who presents the ball well (every single time), is generally in the right place (although some times does the wrong things), but is the most limited option attacking wise by far - then kearney is your man - so much for Leinstertainment though. Personally I'd love to see Zebo backed at full back - in the same way that Ringrose is being backed at 13, but can understand keeping him on the wing as well.

The concept of an inform fast and attacking full back being promoted over a safer ageing option really shouldn't surprise anyone
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Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby Laighin Break » February 15th, 2017, 4:09 pm

wixfjord wrote:
the spoofer wrote:
It's amazing the number of people who must watch a lot of rugby and include TOH in teams. Coaches at the top level who are serious about winning do not pick flakey full backs.


You know I'm happy someone else said that, because I thought I was going mad! Really don't get the TOH love in.

He is absolutely nowhere near Kearney or even Zebo's level as a test FB. Positionally dodgy, tends to lose the ball in contact a lot and at Pro12 level relies on his speed a lot to get himself out of difficult situations, an option that won't be open at test level.

Sure, he's only 25 and needs experience if he's going to crack on, but people were speaking as if he would usurp Kearney and Zebo even with both fit!


Well obviosuly he isn't near their level as a test FB, he only has 3 caps at test level! He's not going to get to that level by not playing international rugby.
Carbery was hardly at 'test level' when he was thrown in against NZ.
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Re: Italy v Ireland 2017

Postby Golf Man » February 15th, 2017, 4:10 pm

fourthirtythree wrote:
wixfjord wrote:
the spoofer wrote:
It's amazing the number of people who must watch a lot of rugby and include TOH in teams. Coaches at the top level who are serious about winning do not pick flakey full backs.


You know I'm happy someone else said that, because I thought I was going mad! Really don't get the TOH love in.

He is absolutely nowhere near Kearney or even Zebo's level as a test FB. Positionally dodgy, tends to lose the ball in contact a lot and at Pro12 level relies on his speed a lot to get himself out of difficult situations, an option that won't be open at test level.

Sure, he's only 25 and needs experience if he's going to crack on, but people were speaking as if he would usurp Kearney and Zebo even with both fit!


I think we are a bit skewed in our rating of him having seen him be poor in the RDS.

And also Gilroy: grand for Italy, I'm afraid I wouldn't trust him against France. We're short of people and Trimble is a player who has delivered for Schmidt if not the most eye catching player. So I see Earls, Trimble, Zebo as the most likely. Gilroy to the bench I suspect as he was next cab off the rank last week and didn't exactly harm his chances (though I saw a quote from Schmidt talking about his positioning etc.).

We are not going to beat the French wingers with power and pace, it has to be with nous.


I reckon it will be TOH because he will want someone covering full back, and although Gilroy could do that, I don't think he'd be trusted to do that more so than cover the wing tbh. Once again we need to convert our possession to points - if we manage to get the posession - and you are right we need a bit more nous to do taht - but we really need the pace as well (whatever about teh power)
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