Ireland v. England

[paddyor]

The selection of McFadden optimises what is wrong with the current coaching ticket. The conservative nature of everything Ireland are doing right now is what is holding Ireland back.

The worst thing is that we all know that Joe can coach a style of rugby that any rugby fan would relish. The current crop of players is littered with players who are capable of playing a much better brand of rugby than we are currently playing, but we look set to see yet another game of kick chase.

I don't what to see Joe given the boot, but failure to beat England can only be seen as a massive failure if he picks what he believes is the best 23 and Ireland still lose.

Surely its the basic errors that are holding us back? If you cant eliminate them then youve shag all chance of developing a more elaborate style of play.

What you often see with teams that have poor systems in place, is that they fail with the basics, just look at Munster and Leinster last season.

When a team has solid systems in place, the basics tend to look after themselves. Just look at Munster this season, or Leinster under Joe, and again this season.

Confidence is nurtured in a team with solid and effective systems, confidence lends itself to making the basics, basic.

In 2014 and 2015 we didn't see Ireland make these errors, as the team fully believed in their systems, which allowed them to excel with the basics, and result in a remarkably low error count in nearly every game.
Teams have found us out over the last 2 years, and have found ways of forcing errors in our limited offensive system.
They have shut down our game, by shutting down our backrow, and targeting our once solid set piece.
This means that Ireland are panicking, and making poor decisions, such as SOB's pass to nobody, Henshaw joining a maul upfront of the ball, Sexton's attempt at a clearance kick that lead to Wales's last try, or even the poor attempt to set up a rolling maul from the 22.

Thats tripe. Guardiolas barca didnt become great passers because of systems.

Oh amd Munster were gash last year because theyd 2 unit coaches who were clearly put of there depth (mod, walsh), You get the basics right and go from there. Crawl then walk, walk then run etc.

Sextom didnt panick. He had to do something, similar to tye last peno vs Scotland.

[munster#1]

So what you are saying is that Joe has not coached his team how to pass, or catch a ball correctly?
Do you believe that that is something that players in an international camp spend hours on?
Surely Joe should be picking a squad that already has the basics and then laying his system on top of that?

At this level, the basics definitely do look after themselves when the system works. If you generally can't perform the basics, then you have no place playing international level.
Are these same players making the same number of basic errors with their provinces? Were they making these errors in 2014 or 2015?
I do not believe that either SOB or Sexton would have made these poor decisions a couple of years ago.

If you believe that the basics are lacking in these players, then a serious light needs to be shone over Joe's selection policy.

This squad is playing the same game plan for a number of years now, so your walk before they run comment is very ignorant.

[All Blacks nil]

Q

Sextom didnt panick. He had to do something, similar to tye last peno vs Scotland.

[/quote]

TO PANIC -
Sudden uncontrollable fear or anxiety, often causing wildly unthinking behaviour..



I think Johnnny panicked. It was immaterial at the end of the day although 3 guys earned a cap they wouldn't have got otherwise

[paddyor]

So what you are saying is that Joe has not coached his team how to pass, or catch a ball correctly?
Do you believe that that is something that players in an international camp spend hours on?
Surely Joe should be picking a squad that already has the basics and then laying his system on top of that?

At this level, the basics definitely do look after themselves when the system works. If you generally can't perform the basics, then you have no place playing international level.
Are these same players making the same number of basic errors with their provinces? Were they making these errors in 2014 or 2015?
I do not believe that either SOB or Sexton would have made these poor decisions a couple of years ago.

If you believe that the basics are lacking in these players, then a serious light needs to be shone over Joe's selection policy.

This squad is playing the same game plan for a number of years now, so your walk before they run comment is very ignorant.

It's not really his job to teach them passing, hooking lineout throwing etc. It's his job to pick the best players available to Ireland and get them playing. I think he generally picks the best players but some of basics aren't that good. See Hayden Triggs limber up to a ruck as stand in scrum half.

Actually both SOB and Sexton have made a lot of basic errors for Ireland in the past, what stood out on Friday was the number of basic and mostly unforced errors. I think we still struggle with the favorites tag and don't handle the pressure that well. Some credit has to go to the Welsh. Even with a talented 2nd playmaker like Owen Farrell, England needed a brainfart and Alex Cuthbert to beat them and their cussed defense.

The squad has evolved massively over the past year alone and the tactics too have changed since the RWC(locks backrow, centres), so no it's not at all.

We're getting away from the original argument though which is that you think the systems failed and I think the players did. Go back to the Scotland game and all 3 tries appear to be the result of player error. Even against Wales, the first try was Jackson shooting out of the line

[Golf Man]

Not sure about any claims re lack of basic abilities - the squad have worked with Schmidt for 3.5 years and have of them have worked with him for a couple of years before that. Basic ability wasn't a problem a couple of years ago and isn't really a problem when they play for their provinces. Its a bit of a cop out to use this excuse imo.

Players aren't looking as good for Ireland as they do for their provinces - Zebo being a very good example of this - that has to be on the coaching

Not that it can't be overturned but he needs to address it

On McFadden it doesn't surprise and it'll probably have no impact but it seems like another missed oippourtinuty - Ringrose was around squads for a good whiole before being introduced. He shoudl have had 1 or 2 younger backs doing teh same thing this 6N.

The rest of the year is the important part for Schmidt now - if he continues to go back to the old favourites its only going to go downhill

[munster#1]

So what you are saying is that Joe has not coached his team how to pass, or catch a ball correctly?
Do you believe that that is something that players in an international camp spend hours on?
Surely Joe should be picking a squad that already has the basics and then laying his system on top of that?

At this level, the basics definitely do look after themselves when the system works. If you generally can't perform the basics, then you have no place playing international level.
Are these same players making the same number of basic errors with their provinces? Were they making these errors in 2014 or 2015?
I do not believe that either SOB or Sexton would have made these poor decisions a couple of years ago.

If you believe that the basics are lacking in these players, then a serious light needs to be shone over Joe's selection policy.

This squad is playing the same game plan for a number of years now, so your walk before they run comment is very ignorant.

It's not really his job to teach them passing, hooking lineout throwing etc. It's his job to pick the best players available to Ireland and get them playing. I think he generally picks the best players but some of basics aren't that good. See Hayden Triggs limber up to a ruck as stand in scrum half.

Actually both SOB and Sexton have made a lot of basic errors for Ireland in the past, what stood out on Friday was the number of basic and mostly unforced errors. I think we still struggle with the favorites tag and don't handle the pressure that well. Some credit has to go to the Welsh. Even with a talented 2nd playmaker like Owen Farrell, England needed a brainfart and Alex Cuthbert to beat them and their cussed defense.

The squad has evolved massively over the past year alone and the tactics too have changed since the RWC(locks backrow, centres), so no it's not at all.

We're getting away from the original argument though which is that you think the systems failed and I think the players did. Go back to the Scotland game and all 3 tries appear to be the result of player error. Even against Wales, the first try was Jackson shooting out of the line

We are both in agreement that there are issues with the coaching if the team at present.
Your opinion lends itself to the belief that Joe is either selecting players with poor basic skills, or is not coaching the basics correctly.

That's may be true, but imo this is not the case.
This group of players have been around a long time now, with many of them having a large amount of caps. Granted some of the bench options are relatively new at this level, but they haven't been given enough game time to make mistakes.

On the tries v Scotland, to say that our narrow defensive system wasn't at fault is, imo completely wrong. And the shooter system, is something that Joe has used since his days at Leinster.

Both Scotland and Wales used a hard press defensive system, and doubled teamed our limited ball carrying options, which forced errors. This limited our attacking options, and isolated players, causing players to make poor decisions.
Again, for me to say that this is down to Joe not coaching the basics is wrong, it was a system failure, and a lack of a plan B.

When any team tries to manufacture a rolling maul from nothing, on the 22, is like saying that we have no ideas. It is admitting that the system isn't working. It is essentially being in panic mode.

We are of a similar opinion, but at opposite ends, and I doubt either of us will stray from that.

[olaf the fat]

Not sure about any claims re lack of basic abilities - the squad have worked with Schmidt for 3.5 years and have of them have worked with him for a couple of years before that. Basic ability wasn't a problem a couple of years ago and isn't really a problem when they play for their provinces. Its a bit of a cop out to use this excuse imo.

Players aren't looking as good for Ireland as they do for their provinces - Zebo being a very good example of this - that has to be on the coaching

Not that it can't be overturned but he needs to address it

On McFadden it doesn't surprise and it'll probably have no impact but it seems like another missed oippourtinuty - Ringrose was around squads for a good whiole before being introduced. He shoudl have had 1 or 2 younger backs doing teh same thing this 6N.

The rest of the year is the important part for Schmidt now - if he continues to go back to the old favourites its only going to go downhill

I would not read that much into bringing Ferg back to the squad because A) Most likely he is not there for selection B) for training he already knows the ropes C) Does not take a young player from either Leinster or Munster when they could be working for the up coming QF's.

For this 6Ns Wales were written off before the game by many here - based on a poor first game in Italy - Wales are often slow starters in the 6N and the temporary coach was still bedding in. They should of taken England. While Scotland have had a good competition - there best in a long long time.

We are not taking our opportunities to score, and shipped 3 trys in both our big away games. Both A and D not where it should be, but we were in position to win both those games. So you are on the nail when you say Joe has something to address. It may be disappointing, but we are far from bad.

*Joe's big issue was not subbing a clearly injured Murray much earlier. He could not pass which put us under pressure, but with only 14 on the pitch he had now where to hid and could of been really injured trying one arm tackles on the likes of North.

[outcast eddie]

There's not a lot of optimism on here about Saturday's game, just the usual parochial bickering...

We had bad luck on Friday, nothing went our way, injuries, bounce of the ball, ref decisions, etc. it was not Ireland's day. That's not to take away from Wales' achievement but it was just one of those times when we were swimming against the tide.

We are due some luck but we also need some motivation and this is not easy to come by when the Championship has slipped from our grasp. One of the commentators on TV said how the prospect of a few thousand England fans celebrating a grand slam on Saturday night in Dublin is an unpalatable prospect; I would suggest that it is the stuff of nightmares for Ireland fans.

Joe has a rule of only positivity from midweek, I hope it spreads onto this forum and into the fans' mindset soon.

[Raydollard]

McFadden is replacing Tommy Bowe ffs. He is there to cover only and is an improvement in that case. Byrne should be on the team that plays.

[paddyor]

So what you are saying is that Joe has not coached his team how to pass, or catch a ball correctly?
Do you believe that that is something that players in an international camp spend hours on?
Surely Joe should be picking a squad that already has the basics and then laying his system on top of that?

At this level, the basics definitely do look after themselves when the system works. If you generally can't perform the basics, then you have no place playing international level.
Are these same players making the same number of basic errors with their provinces? Were they making these errors in 2014 or 2015?
I do not believe that either SOB or Sexton would have made these poor decisions a couple of years ago.

If you believe that the basics are lacking in these players, then a serious light needs to be shone over Joe's selection policy.

This squad is playing the same game plan for a number of years now, so your walk before they run comment is very ignorant.

It's not really his job to teach them passing, hooking lineout throwing etc. It's his job to pick the best players available to Ireland and get them playing. I think he generally picks the best players but some of basics aren't that good. See Hayden Triggs limber up to a ruck as stand in scrum half.

Actually both SOB and Sexton have made a lot of basic errors for Ireland in the past, what stood out on Friday was the number of basic and mostly unforced errors. I think we still struggle with the favorites tag and don't handle the pressure that well. Some credit has to go to the Welsh. Even with a talented 2nd playmaker like Owen Farrell, England needed a brainfart and Alex Cuthbert to beat them and their cussed defense.

The squad has evolved massively over the past year alone and the tactics too have changed since the RWC(locks backrow, centres), so no it's not at all.

We're getting away from the original argument though which is that you think the systems failed and I think the players did. Go back to the Scotland game and all 3 tries appear to be the result of player error. Even against Wales, the first try was Jackson shooting out of the line

We are both in agreement that there are issues with the coaching if the team at present.
Your opinion lends itself to the belief that Joe is either selecting players with poor basic skills, or is not coaching the basics correctly.

That's may be true, but imo this is not the case.
This group of players have been around a long time now, with many of them having a large amount of caps. Granted some of the bench options are relatively new at this level, but they haven't been given enough game time to make mistakes.

On the tries v Scotland, to say that our narrow defensive system wasn't at fault is, imo completely wrong. And the shooter system, is something that Joe has used since his days at Leinster.

Both Scotland and Wales used a hard press defensive system, and doubled teamed our limited ball carrying options, which forced errors. This limited our attacking options, and isolated players, causing players to make poor decisions.
Again, for me to say that this is down to Joe not coaching the basics is wrong, it was a system failure, and a lack of a plan B.

When any team tries to manufacture a rolling maul from nothing, on the 22, is like saying that we have no ideas. It is admitting that the system isn't working. It is essentially being in panic mode.

We are of a similar opinion, but at opposite ends, and I doubt either of us will stray from that.

No, the tries against Scotland were player error. Having 6 players defending the shortside against 2 players isnt part of any system. Also having 3 players pushing up to tackle a single carrier (and only one of them makeing the tackle) isnt part of the plan.

[All Blacks nil]

No, the tries against Scotland were player error. Having 6 players defending the shortside against 2 players isnt part of any system. Also having 3 players pushing up to tackle a single carrier (and only one of them makeing the tackle) isnt part of the plan.

Maybe Joe should introduce players who do follow his plan.

Unfortunately he is limited in his choice because "the plan" is so complex that it takes a few seasons for guys to get a grasp of it. Sounds like the wrong plan to me.

I haven't looked at the stats but I'm guessing with our oneoutmanship (new word) we lead the stats for rucks. Change the plan, out your runners/carriers in space and see what happens

[munster#1]

We'll have to agree to disagree, on this one. for me we have continuously seen Ireland getting beaten out wide due to defending narrow.
Perhaps the intent is not to defend so narrow. But if that is the case, then Joe has a lot to answer for, when he constantly picks the same players who are not capable / willing to play his defensive system.

Ireland over the last couple of seasons, for me anyway, have defended narrow, stacking the area close to the breakdown, which does lend itself to being caught out wide.

I hope you are wrong, because if you are right, then the situation is a lot worst than I think. And Joe probably isn't the man for the job, and Ireland have a lot of poor players playing for them.

[Oldschool]

What Joe should do.
Select POM at 7. Bench SOB.
England don't kick that much.
Select Payne at 15.
Carberry as 23.
Leave RK out.
If Dillane was fit (he isn't)
Select Dillane as 19.
Henderson as 20
Leave SOB out.

[simonokeeffe]

What Joe should do.
Select POM at 7. Bench SOB.
England don't kick that much.
Select Payne at 15.
Carberry as 23.
Leave RK out.
If Dillane was fit (he isn't)
Select Dillane as 19.
Henderson as 20
Leave SOB out.

Six two bench split with no Jackson and presumably Ringrose covering wing?

[Oldschool]

What Joe should do.
Select POM at 7. Bench SOB.
England don't kick that much.
Select Payne at 15.
Carberry as 23.
Leave RK out.
If Dillane was fit (he isn't)
Select Dillane as 19.
Henderson as 20
Leave SOB out.

Six two bench split with no Jackson and presumably Ringrose covering wing?

Stay with Jackson on bench.
Carbery to cover back three or open to other alternatives.
Carberry looks like he can cover any back position and be a real threat as well.
And he knows the systems.

[paddyor]

We'll have to agree to disagree, on this one. for me we have continuously seen Ireland getting beaten out wide due to defending narrow.
Perhaps the intent is not to defend so narrow. But if that is the case, then Joe has a lot to answer for, when he constantly picks the same players who are not capable / willing to play his defensive system.

Ireland over the last couple of seasons, for me anyway, have defended narrow, stacking the area close to the breakdown, which does lend itself to being caught out wide.

I hope you are wrong, because if you are right, then the situation is a lot worst than I think. And Joe probably isn't the man for the job, and Ireland have a lot of poor players playing for them.

Its happened on occassion whem weve had to rejigg the centres sinve Farrell was appointed.

[Cor. Ind.]

There's some sense of schadenfreude in reading posts by the same sort of folk who ridiculed "Kidenme's" provincial and overly conservative selection policies, now twisting themselves into pretzels to justify Joe's utterly bizarre selection of McFadden and retention of serial under-performers like SOB, Bowe and Kearney.

To hear Joe say people are wrong to question Bowe's inclusion, since they haven't seen him ripping it up in training, simply reflects a coach completely out of touch with reality. Bowe is one of the greatest wingers Ireland has ever produced. A powerful 6'3 unit with real pace and a sidestep, who always seemed to find the try line. Those days are long by gone though, as demonstrated this season in Bordeaux when Mads did him with a mere swivel and left him for dead ambling over the line. I'm sure it was noted here at the time...

Ire V Eng will always be the apex of the 6N, and yet a part of me wonders does a big performance & victory just paper over the cracks of two poor championships and that debacle against the Pumas in the RWC.

[simonokeeffe]

What Joe should do.
Select POM at 7. Bench SOB.
England don't kick that much.
Select Payne at 15.
Carberry as 23.
Leave RK out.
If Dillane was fit (he isn't)
Select Dillane as 19.
Henderson as 20
Leave SOB out.

Six two bench split with no Jackson and presumably Ringrose covering wing?

Stay with Jackson on bench.
Carbery to cover back three or open to other alternatives.
Carberry looks like he can cover any back position and be a real threat as well.
And he knows the systems.

Get ya
Need some 7 cover for POM from somewhere though

[neilinboston]

Six two bench split with no Jackson and presumably Ringrose covering wing?

Stay with Jackson on bench.
Carbery to cover back three or open to other alternatives.
Carberry looks like he can cover any back position and be a real threat as well.
And he knows the systems.

Get ya
Need some 7 cover for POM from somewhere though

Carberry

[Golf Man]

Not sure about any claims re lack of basic abilities - the squad have worked with Schmidt for 3.5 years and have of them have worked with him for a couple of years before that. Basic ability wasn't a problem a couple of years ago and isn't really a problem when they play for their provinces. Its a bit of a cop out to use this excuse imo.

Players aren't looking as good for Ireland as they do for their provinces - Zebo being a very good example of this - that has to be on the coaching

Not that it can't be overturned but he needs to address it

On McFadden it doesn't surprise and it'll probably have no impact but it seems like another missed oippourtinuty - Ringrose was around squads for a good whiole before being introduced. He shoudl have had 1 or 2 younger backs doing teh same thing this 6N.

The rest of the year is the important part for Schmidt now - if he continues to go back to the old favourites its only going to go downhill

I would not read that much into bringing Ferg back to the squad because A) Most likely he is not there for selection B) for training he already knows the ropes C) Does not take a young player from either Leinster or Munster when they could be working for the up coming QF's.

For this 6Ns Wales were written off before the game by many here - based on a poor first game in Italy - Wales are often slow starters in the 6N and the temporary coach was still bedding in. They should of taken England. While Scotland have had a good competition - there best in a long long time.

We are not taking our opportunities to score, and shipped 3 trys in both our big away games. Both A and D not where it should be, but we were in position to win both those games. So you are on the nail when you say Joe has something to address. It may be disappointing, but we are far from bad.

*Joe's big issue was not subbing a clearly injured Murray much earlier. He could not pass which put us under pressure, but with only 14 on the pitch he had now where to hid and could of been really injured trying one arm tackles on the likes of North.

Bowe came from outside the squad to the match day 23 - nothing to say that he won't do the same with McFadden, and if selection so far is anything to go on its as likely - He has gone the old reliable route for the 23 jersey in 3 of the games. We could see him retain Kearney and Ringrose and have Payne on the bench, or if Ringrose is dropped he will amost certainly go to 23. I'm assuming that Kearney if dropped wouldn't go to 23, but I wouldn't rule that out. I reckon McFadden is already ahead of Conway and TOH and is probably ahead of Gilroy as well in Schmidts mind

I'd like to see 13 Ringrose 15 Payne 23 Zebo/Gilroy I reckon we'll see 13 Payne 15 Kearney 23 Ringrose (with McFadden next in line)