Ireland v. England

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Re: Ireland v. England

Postby Oldschool » March 19th, 2017, 12:13 pm

BlueStreak wrote:
Oldschool wrote:Well we knew with Tremenjous in the saddle the MOM was going to be.
A. A forward.
B. A Munster forward with the 'smart' money on CJ.
We were right except for one thing.
Tremenjous got the wrong man.
Ryan was beyond a shadow of doubt MOM.
He was very much a leader on the pitch and this helped Best.
His power in the scrum was proven beyond any doubt.
England packed Itoje and Lawes on Ireland's TH side and got nothing - That's a compliment to both Ryan and Furlong.
Ryan up against the cream of England and indeed world SRs and he came out on top.
Shame on you Tremenjous - An ex international SR and you couldn't even get that little detail right.


Yeah, but Donncha Ryan's not from Cork

I didn't know that but I'm not surprised. :lol:
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Re: Ireland v. England

Postby MunsterSugar » March 19th, 2017, 12:20 pm

Oldschool wrote:
BlueStreak wrote:
Oldschool wrote:Well we knew with Tremenjous in the saddle the MOM was going to be.
A. A forward.
B. A Munster forward with the 'smart' money on CJ.
We were right except for one thing.
Tremenjous got the wrong man.
Ryan was beyond a shadow of doubt MOM.
He was very much a leader on the pitch and this helped Best.
His power in the scrum was proven beyond any doubt.
England packed Itoje and Lawes on Ireland's TH side and got nothing - That's a compliment to both Ryan and Furlong.
Ryan up against the cream of England and indeed world SRs and he came out on top.
Shame on you Tremenjous - An ex international SR and you couldn't even get that little detail right.


Yeah, but Donncha Ryan's not from Cork

I didn't know that but I'm not surprised. :lol:


Ha think it was obvious as he's spoken about being a Tipp man many iMessage and playing his club rugby in Limerick.
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Re: Ireland v. England

Postby blockhead » March 19th, 2017, 12:30 pm

The Guardian's ratings: More rational than the Irish Papers 8s & 9s for everyone when we win.
Jared Payne, full-back, 6/10 Replaced Rob Kearney and made nervous start with a knock-on under high ball but surging run midway through second half helped get Ireland on the front foot.

Keith Earls, wing, 5/10 Would have hoped to add to his one try against England but knocked on under pressure. Was replaced at half-time amid injury concerns. Not his best game for his country.

Garry Ringrose, centre, 8/10 At the heart of everything that was good about Ireland’s first half – and there was a lot of it – and such a powerful runner throughout, always looking to stretch the gainline.
England pursuit of grand slam and record foiled by defiant Ireland
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Robbie Henshaw, centre, 7/10 Plays the accordion, fiddle, guitar and piano but his dancing feet need working on if he is to add an extra dimension to his midfield play. Solid and powerful as you would expect.

Simon Zebo, wing, 6/10 Was penalised for collapsing a maul as England got a foothold in the second half and was possibly Ireland’s quietest outside-back in a game that was never likely to be decided by moments of magic.

Johnny Sexton, fly-half, 8/10 All the pressure was on the No10 in absence of usual partner but it did not show as he controlled the game. Encapsulated the first half by winning a scrum with a choke on Farrell.

Kieran Marmion, scrum-half, 8/10 A nation held its breath over the injured Conor Murray but he played a marvellous game full of clever probing and passing. An intensely competitive player and a splendid day.

Jack McGrath, prop, 6/10 One of the best looseheads around and was rock solid here but gave away a particularly brainless penalty to allow Farrell to score and England to get back within four points.

Rory Best, hooker, capt, 8/10 Appeared to be off for good after an early head injury assessment but returned soon after and made his Lions credentials clear with a very solid all-round display. Outshone Hartley.

Tadhg Furlong, prop, 8/10 Always looking to steal a yard, whether by fair means or foul, and added to his burgeoning reputation as one of the northern hemisphere’s most impressive scrummagers.

Donnacha Ryan, lock, 6/10 Not as prominent as his second-row partner but was an important part of Ireland’s powerful effort in the loose as they allowed England very little leeway for the first hour.

Iain Henderson, lock, 8/10 A tremendously powerful lunge to score the opening try and capitalise on Ireland’s strong start as England struggled to impose their game. His extra physicality justified his selection over Toner.

Peter O’Mahony, flanker, 7/10 A late call-up for the injured Jamie Heaslip and was Ireland’s go-to man in a smooth lineout that did not miss the giant Devin Toner. Showed up all over the pitch and was outstanding.

Sean O’Brien, flanker, 8/10 A constant presence with smooth hands allied to typically abrasive work at the breakdown. A key part of the Irish choke tackles that were rewarded with scrums.

CJ Stander, No8, 7/10 Standing in at No8 and was not as prominent as we are used to seeing but still played a part in Ireland’s early pressure. He will have better games, though we now hold him to a very high standard
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Re: Ireland v. England

Postby IanD » March 19th, 2017, 1:03 pm

jimbobjoe wrote:Some things in no particular order..

Marmion proved today he can do it at the top level.
Conway is a real option going forward.
Ringrose's best game in green?
Luke's box kick near the end was a thing of raw beauty.
Henderson could be a fixture from now.
Henshaw is a monster in the tackle.
Sexy is one of the greatest battlers I've ever seen.
Backrow selection headaches forever!

I've missed loads.. what else?


I am a bit miffed my contribution has been overlooked. I wore my green socks yesterday. Last weekend against Wales I accidentally wore my blue socks. Results speak for themselves.
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Re: Ireland v. England

Postby munster#1 » March 19th, 2017, 1:14 pm

IanD wrote:
jimbobjoe wrote:Some things in no particular order..

Marmion proved today he can do it at the top level.
Conway is a real option going forward.
Ringrose's best game in green?
Luke's box kick near the end was a thing of raw beauty.
Henderson could be a fixture from now.
Henshaw is a monster in the tackle.
Sexy is one of the greatest battlers I've ever seen.
Backrow selection headaches forever!

I've missed loads.. what else?


I am a bit miffed my contribution has been overlooked. I wore my green socks yesterday. Last weekend against Wales I accidentally wore my blue socks. Results speak for themselves.


It always amazes me just how superstitious people can get when it comes to sport. I have a friend that I he known since my teens that I will not go to a match with, as Munster always lose when we watch a match together.

On a side note, your profile pic interests me. I often see that flag, or a similar one anyway, on TV.
I always picture some child, who mammy lovingly made the flag for. Who's father proudly sits beside while he waves his flag.

For example, my eldest daughter has brought the same flag to every game she has been to, because she got it at her first game.

Do you know anything about this flag, or is it just a photo that you found/took?
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Re: Ireland v. England

Postby Peg Leg » March 19th, 2017, 2:08 pm

munster#1 wrote:
IanD wrote:
jimbobjoe wrote:Some things in no particular order..

Marmion proved today he can do it at the top level.
Conway is a real option going forward.
Ringrose's best game in green?
Luke's box kick near the end was a thing of raw beauty.
Henderson could be a fixture from now.
Henshaw is a monster in the tackle.
Sexy is one of the greatest battlers I've ever seen.
Backrow selection headaches forever!

I've missed loads.. what else?


I am a bit miffed my contribution has been overlooked. I wore my green socks yesterday. Last weekend against Wales I accidentally wore my blue socks. Results speak for themselves.


It always amazes me just how superstitious people can get when it comes to sport. I have a friend that I he known since my teens that I will not go to a match with, as Munster always lose when we watch a match together.

On a side note, your profile pic interests me. I often see that flag, or a similar one anyway, on TV.
I always picture some child, who mammy lovingly made the flag for. Who's father proudly sits beside while he waves his flag.

For example, my eldest daughter has brought the same flag to every game she has been to, because she got it at her first game.

Do you know anything about this flag, or is it just a photo that you found/took?

IanD is this flag
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Re: Ireland v. England

Postby IanD » March 19th, 2017, 2:26 pm

munster#1 wrote:
On a side note, your profile pic interests me. I often see that flag, or a similar one anyway, on TV.
I always picture some child, who mammy lovingly made the flag for. Who's father proudly sits beside while he waves his flag.

For example, my eldest daughter has brought the same flag to every game she has been to, because she got it at her first game.

Do you know anything about this flag, or is it just a photo that you found/took?


The photo is of me flying my flag. I don't know who took it, it was pointed out to me on Twitter.

I got it made by a seamstress as my mum said it was too big for her kitchen table.

I have had a few kids fly it but it is quite heavy/awarkard (It is 3.10m by 1.80m on a 4.5m pole) so really needs an adult.

As an aside my Ireland flag is 2.15m by 3.15m and I had it on Friday night on a 6m pole.

I need the bigger pole for a new project. Damm i have said too much.....
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Re: Ireland v. England

Postby LeinsterLeader » March 19th, 2017, 2:51 pm

Okay, as someone who's been really looking forward to seeing Payne at 15 (I've long thought he was the best Ireland Full-back available), I don't see the "Excellent" or even "Very Good" votes that some posters having given him for yesterday. Apart from one brilliant run (and lets be honest, he should have been stopped at the gain line) he did okay but if I'm honest I couldn't say he was honestly better than Kearney. If anything with the amount of aerial ball we knocked on (okay it never really cost us but again that was more luck than design) it did highlight, to me anyway, what we missed from RK where teams either don't kick much high ball because he's there or else he gobbles it up. So basically what I'm saying in relation to JP is did I miss something in relation to his performance (i'm open to that possibility, I've never played Full back)? Or is there some confirmation bias going on here in relation to RK?

Remember too, I'm only talking about the reaction to yesterdays performance. To be honest I didn't think JP looked fit. At one stage in the first half he made a run and he was breathing through his a*rse for 5 minutes. However he recovered well and did last until the end, so fair play.
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Re: Ireland v. England

Postby fourthirtythree » March 19th, 2017, 3:11 pm

A more adaptable, better prepared team, like say Wales, would have targeted Payne to great effect yesterday.

Edit. I saw the Grauniad ratings Blockhead. I don't think there's any doubt they under rate Ryan and O'Mahony but other than that they are about right.
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Re: Ireland v. England

Postby All Blacks nil » March 19th, 2017, 3:17 pm

LeinsterLeader wrote:Okay, as someone who's been really looking forward to seeing Payne at 15 (I've long thought he was the best Ireland Full-back available), I don't see the "Excellent" or even "Very Good" votes that some posters having given him for yesterday. Apart from one brilliant run (and lets be honest, he should have been stopped at the gain line) he did okay but if I'm honest I couldn't say he was honestly better than Kearney. If anything with the amount of aerial ball we knocked on (okay it never really cost us but again that was more luck than design) it did highlight, to me anyway, what we missed from RK where teams either don't kick much high ball because he's there or else he gobbles it up. So basically what I'm saying in relation to JP is did I miss something in relation to his performance (i'm open to that possibility, I've never played Full back)? Or is there some confirmation bias going on here in relation to RK?

Remember too, I'm only talking about the reaction to yesterdays performance. To be honest I didn't think JP looked fit. At one stage in the first half he made a run and he was breathing through his a*rse for 5 minutes. However he recovered well and did last until the end, so fair play.




You seem to have forgotten his 1/2 break, getting his hands beyond the tackle and putting Earls towards the corner (Earls knocked on in two man tackle a couple of metres short) during the advantage played for Johnny's first kicked penalty. It is also worth noting his 4/0 tackle count. Although not called upon too often as Ireland dominated possession he was as he has been at centre previously, decisive in the tackle. Although an obviously small sample it compares well with RK's championship stats of 9/5 or 5/5 in the previous two games.
What have the Roman's ever done for us!!!!

At times he was breathing heavily but those times were after long periods of play involving plenty of running. If you looked at everyone else at the end of those passages of play they too were breathing hard or as you so eloquently put it "breathing through their arse"
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Re: Ireland v. England

Postby simonokeeffe » March 19th, 2017, 3:23 pm

LeinsterLeader wrote:Okay, as someone who's been really looking forward to seeing Payne at 15 (I've long thought he was the best Ireland Full-back available), I don't see the "Excellent" or even "Very Good" votes that some posters having given him for yesterday. Apart from one brilliant run (and lets be honest, he should have been stopped at the gain line) he did okay but if I'm honest I couldn't say he was honestly better than Kearney. If anything with the amount of aerial ball we knocked on (okay it never really cost us but again that was more luck than design) it did highlight, to me anyway, what we missed from RK where teams either don't kick much high ball because he's there or else he gobbles it up. So basically what I'm saying in relation to JP is did I miss something in relation to his performance (i'm open to that possibility, I've never played Full back)? Or is there some confirmation bias going on here in relation to RK?

Remember too, I'm only talking about the reaction to yesterdays performance. To be honest I didn't think JP looked fit. At one stage in the first half he made a run and he was breathing through his a*rse for 5 minutes. However he recovered well and did last until the end, so fair play.


Payne didnt look (international) match fit but he dogged it out

@Hugo maybe this is an easy narrative or 2 + 2 =5 but Henshaw and by extension Ringrose have performed significantly better since Sexton came back
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Re: Ireland v. England

Postby All Blacks nil » March 19th, 2017, 3:37 pm

Both scrumhalfs did well yesterday and showed that they are quite capable of playing at this level.

Interesting to see the unanimous praise for Luke's super territorial kick towards the end of the game when compared to the reaction to A similar kick by Conor Murray v NZ in 2013 after 77m50s which put the All Blacks back in their 22.
Murray was roundly condemned for "kicking the ball away" whereas now Luke is being feted for executing something similar. Ireland actually regained the ball in that NZ match, when Cruden gambled on a chip kick just outside his 22, before Jack Mc was penalised for off his feet quite a few phases later.
The difference?
To me none,
Two fantastic territorial kicks that put the try needing opposition back in their 22.
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Re: Ireland v. England

Postby MunsterSugar » March 19th, 2017, 3:46 pm

Just on Payne. Factor in his injury and fact he's only back
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Re: Ireland v. England

Postby LeinsterLeader » March 19th, 2017, 3:47 pm

All Blacks nil wrote:
LeinsterLeader wrote:Okay, as someone who's been really looking forward to seeing Payne at 15 (I've long thought he was the best Ireland Full-back available), I don't see the "Excellent" or even "Very Good" votes that some posters having given him for yesterday. Apart from one brilliant run (and lets be honest, he should have been stopped at the gain line) he did okay but if I'm honest I couldn't say he was honestly better than Kearney. If anything with the amount of aerial ball we knocked on (okay it never really cost us but again that was more luck than design) it did highlight, to me anyway, what we missed from RK where teams either don't kick much high ball because he's there or else he gobbles it up. So basically what I'm saying in relation to JP is did I miss something in relation to his performance (i'm open to that possibility, I've never played Full back)? Or is there some confirmation bias going on here in relation to RK?

Remember too, I'm only talking about the reaction to yesterdays performance. To be honest I didn't think JP looked fit. At one stage in the first half he made a run and he was breathing through his a*rse for 5 minutes. However he recovered well and did last until the end, so fair play.




You seem to have forgotten his 1/2 break, getting his hands beyond the tackle and putting Earls towards the corner (Earls knocked on in two man tackle a couple of metres short) during the advantage played for Johnny's first kicked penalty. It is also worth noting his 4/0 tackle count. Although not called upon too often as Ireland dominated possession he was as he has been at centre previously, decisive in the tackle. Although an obviously small sample it compares well with RK's championship stats of 9/5 or 5/5 in the previous two games.
What have the Roman's ever done for us!!!!

At times he was breathing heavily but those times were after long periods of play involving plenty of running. If you looked at everyone else at the end of those passages of play they too were breathing hard or as you so eloquently put it "breathing through their arse"


Fair enough, I'm not trying to get into a player V player analysis here. My point was that a number of posters on here have described his performance as 'Very Good' and 'Excellent' and even taking into account the points you've raised I think the best you good say was it was "good".

Let me put it this way ABN (and lets's both put our provincial rivalry aside for a minute on this), swap that performance yesterday by JP and put RK in his place. Do you really think the same people would have described that as "Excellent". Be honest now?
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Re: Ireland v. England

Postby LeinsterLeader » March 19th, 2017, 3:50 pm

MunsterSugar wrote:Just on Payne. Factor in his injury and fact he's only back

Absolutely, I have done and I am.

My point was (purely on yesterdays game) was that I didn't see an excellent performance. He was good in the areas he's normally good. He was poor under the high ball. I think he's an excellent full back. Just not yesterday!
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Re: Ireland v. England

Postby fourthirtythree » March 19th, 2017, 3:58 pm

But LL, Kearney is always Ireland's worst player - no matter how he plays - therefore his replacement has to be better. No matter how he plays.

We got away with Payne who couldn't cover the field. Wales would have killed us yesterday.
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Re: Ireland v. England

Postby paddyor » March 19th, 2017, 4:00 pm

All Blacks nil wrote:
LeinsterLeader wrote:Okay, as someone who's been really looking forward to seeing Payne at 15 (I've long thought he was the best Ireland Full-back available), I don't see the "Excellent" or even "Very Good" votes that some posters having given him for yesterday. Apart from one brilliant run (and lets be honest, he should have been stopped at the gain line) he did okay but if I'm honest I couldn't say he was honestly better than Kearney. If anything with the amount of aerial ball we knocked on (okay it never really cost us but again that was more luck than design) it did highlight, to me anyway, what we missed from RK where teams either don't kick much high ball because he's there or else he gobbles it up. So basically what I'm saying in relation to JP is did I miss something in relation to his performance (i'm open to that possibility, I've never played Full back)? Or is there some confirmation bias going on here in relation to RK?

Remember too, I'm only talking about the reaction to yesterdays performance. To be honest I didn't think JP looked fit. At one stage in the first half he made a run and he was breathing through his a*rse for 5 minutes. However he recovered well and did last until the end, so fair play.




You seem to have forgotten his 1/2 break, getting his hands beyond the tackle and putting Earls towards the corner (Earls knocked on in two man tackle a couple of metres short) during the advantage played for Johnny's first kicked penalty. It is also worth noting his 4/0 tackle count. Although not called upon too often as Ireland dominated possession he was as he has been at centre previously, decisive in the tackle. Although an obviously small sample it compares well with RK's championship stats of 9/5 or 5/5 in the previous two games.
What have the Roman's ever done for us!!!!

At times he was breathing heavily but those times were after long periods of play involving plenty of running. If you looked at everyone else at the end of those passages of play they too were breathing hard or as you so eloquently put it "breathing through their arse"

There was nothing in his forward pass to Earls that Kearney couldn't have done tbh. I was happy to see him get the start yesterday but he didn't really justify the hype tbh. Did nothing Kearney could do, but in part I think that had a lot to do with the conditions

EDIT: Of all the replacements yesterday (Marmion included) he was the least convincing.
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Re: Ireland v. England

Postby LeinsterLeader » March 19th, 2017, 4:06 pm

paddyor wrote:
All Blacks nil wrote:
LeinsterLeader wrote:Okay, as someone who's been really looking forward to seeing Payne at 15 (I've long thought he was the best Ireland Full-back available), I don't see the "Excellent" or even "Very Good" votes that some posters having given him for yesterday. Apart from one brilliant run (and lets be honest, he should have been stopped at the gain line) he did okay but if I'm honest I couldn't say he was honestly better than Kearney. If anything with the amount of aerial ball we knocked on (okay it never really cost us but again that was more luck than design) it did highlight, to me anyway, what we missed from RK where teams either don't kick much high ball because he's there or else he gobbles it up. So basically what I'm saying in relation to JP is did I miss something in relation to his performance (i'm open to that possibility, I've never played Full back)? Or is there some confirmation bias going on here in relation to RK?

Remember too, I'm only talking about the reaction to yesterdays performance. To be honest I didn't think JP looked fit. At one stage in the first half he made a run and he was breathing through his a*rse for 5 minutes. However he recovered well and did last until the end, so fair play.




You seem to have forgotten his 1/2 break, getting his hands beyond the tackle and putting Earls towards the corner (Earls knocked on in two man tackle a couple of metres short) during the advantage played for Johnny's first kicked penalty. It is also worth noting his 4/0 tackle count. Although not called upon too often as Ireland dominated possession he was as he has been at centre previously, decisive in the tackle. Although an obviously small sample it compares well with RK's championship stats of 9/5 or 5/5 in the previous two games.
What have the Roman's ever done for us!!!!

At times he was breathing heavily but those times were after long periods of play involving plenty of running. If you looked at everyone else at the end of those passages of play they too were breathing hard or as you so eloquently put it "breathing through their arse"

There was nothing in his forward pass to Earls that Kearney couldn't have done tbh. I was happy to see him get the start yesterday but he didn't really justify the hype tbh. Did nothing Kearney could do, but in part I think that had a lot to do with the conditions

I think that's true in relation to the conditions and as has been said I don't think he was 100% so I'm sure he'll be better the next times out. It just bugs me when people see things that weren't there in relation to players just because they're in such a hurry to have another player out of the team.
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Re: Ireland v. England

Postby All Blacks nil » March 19th, 2017, 4:12 pm

No, but reaction to a win is always skewed compared to the reaction to a loss.
Payne wasn't assured in the air but apart from two as you say unpunished mistakes he was defensible solid, positionally excellent and offensively creative and dangerous..
I like my last line of defence to be just that, a line of defence. I have confidence in Payne as a defender.Joe has always trumpeted his defensive presence.
Have you confidence in RK (2017) as your last line of defence? If so fair enough but 9/5 is a poor tally for any full back. How does it stack up against his Six Nations contemporaries. With the exception of 1/2p I guess not tooo well..
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Re: Ireland v. England

Postby LeinsterLeader » March 19th, 2017, 4:19 pm

All Blacks nil wrote:No, but reaction to a win is always skewed compared to the reaction to a loss.
Payne wasn't assured in the air but apart from two as you say unpunished mistakes he was defensible solid, positionally excellent and offensively creative and dangerous..
I like my last line of defence to be just that, a line of defence. I have confidence in Payne as a defender.Joe has always trumpeted his defensive presence.
Have you confidence in RK (2017) as your last line of defence? If so fair enough but 9/5 is a poor tally for any full back. How does it stack up against his Six Nations contemporaries. With the exception of 1/2p I guess not tooo well..

You seem to want to get into a player comparison for both players. That's not what I'm about here (I have a lot of respect for both players). If going forward JP is our starting Full-Back that's fine by me I think he's brilliant. My question was, would that performance yesterday have been called "Excellent" if it was Rob Kearney and you answered that with your first word. You could have left it there! :D
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