Joe Schmidt 2017

Forum for the discussion of all International Rugby

Moderator: moderators

Re: Joe Schmidt 2017

Postby hugonaut » March 19th, 2017, 9:26 pm

wixfjord wrote:
munster#1 wrote:We will soon find out if it is the restrictive game plan that meant we didn't get to see Zebo play how he has been all season, or if as you say, he is unfit.


Hugo had an excellent post on this during the week. The 'Zebo being restricted' argument was firmly put to bed by it.


Cheers. It's in the U20s thread – a response to an article contrasting the play of the U20s vs the senior team.

Just to recap: examining Zebo's performances for Munster 2016-7, Ireland 2016-17 and Ireland during the 2017 Six Nations, on average Zebo gets more ball, passes more, runs more, makes more ground, more clean breaks, beats more defenders and offloads more often for Ireland than for Munster.

It's also worth taking into account that he has played 8 games [616 mins] for Ireland this season – 3 in November, 3 in February and 2 in March – and 10 games [697 mins] for Munster – 3 in October, 3 in December, 3 in January and 18 minutes against the Scarlets in September. He has essentially split his game time 44% to 56% between Ireland and Munster [in terms of games] and 47% to 53% [in terms of minutes].

So if somebody references how he has played 'all season', as a contrast between his try-scoring achievements for Munster and Ireland, it doesn't make much sense to me. He has played for both teams 'all season'. I think the difference between try-scoring is more reasonably explained by three factors: better defences at test level; a slightly different tactical emphasis; and simple chance. I don't know what weight you can ascribe to each.

As a contrast, Earls has only scored one try in the last two seasons for Munster [source: http://munsterrugby.ie/player?PlayGuid=KE263615 ] [22+1/1593 mins] and a whopping 10 in the same period for Ireland [source: http://www.irishrugby.ie/rugby/fixtures ... ef=dynamic ] [20+0/1461mins ]. In terms of a split between Ireland and Munster, that's 46.5% to 53.5% [games played] and 48% to 52% [minutes played] – strikingly similar to Zebo.

My only real conclusion is that there's a lot of chance involved in terms of try-scoring at test level. Zebo has been staggeringly productive at club level as a try-scorer, but far less so at test level. He has bagged 8 tries in 33 tests [29+4/2340 mins] which compares unfavourably in every regard – fewer tries, fewer tries/start, fewer tries/match, fewer tries/gametime – with Fergus McFadden's 10 tries in 32 tests [15+17/1430mins ].

I don't think that makes Ferg a better winger than Zebo [although to me it shows that the criticism aimed at the former from certain quarters is over the top]; I think it shows that there's a good bit of a] being in the right place at the right time; and b] taking chances when they're available to you. I can't recall Zebo fluffing many chances this season for Ireland, so the most likely scenario is that the chances haven't really come his way this season. They've gone Earls' way, and he has taken them.
User avatar
hugonaut
Rob Kearney
 
Posts: 4375
Joined: May 5th, 2009, 7:44 pm

Re: Joe Schmidt 2017

Postby ronk » March 19th, 2017, 9:52 pm

Worth reading again Hugo.

The minutes split figures are a bit of an eye opener at this point of the season, but I should have noticed before.

In the specific case of Zebo a possible explanation is overcompensating for his reputation (deserved or not) for being selfish in terms of scoring tries. He worked very very hard on rounding out his overall game to help break into the Irish team.
User avatar
ronk
Devin Toner
 
Posts: 8468
Joined: April 9th, 2009, 12:42 am

Re: Joe Schmidt 2017

Postby wixfjord » March 19th, 2017, 10:06 pm

munster#1 wrote:In all fairness Hugo is not really the barometer on many things rugby related.


What's that supposed to mean?
wixfjord
Girvan Dempsey
 
Posts: 2808
Joined: April 13th, 2009, 1:00 pm

Re: Joe Schmidt 2017

Postby Oldschoolsocks » March 19th, 2017, 10:24 pm

MunsterSugar wrote:
Oldschoolsocks wrote:Actually that's an interesting conversation, is Zebo unfit or being restricted?

I hope it's the latter, and he has a much stronger end of season than he had a 6N (barring Italy, he was excellent v Italy)

*** Edited by Mod - potentially libelous quote removed ***

*** Edited by Mod - response to previous comment ***
the irony being that ad-hominen and appeal to majority are the most often used defences of the apologist.
User avatar
Oldschoolsocks
Mullet
 
Posts: 1680
Joined: January 4th, 2015, 11:36 am
Location: Stepping out of the Supernova

Re: Joe Schmidt 2017

Postby MunsterSugar » March 19th, 2017, 10:40 pm

Oldschoolsocks wrote:
MunsterSugar wrote:
Oldschoolsocks wrote:Actually that's an interesting conversation, is Zebo unfit or being restricted?

I hope it's the latter, and he has a much stronger end of season than he had a 6N (barring Italy, he was excellent v Italy)

*** Edited by mod ***

*** Edited by mod (response to potentially libelous comment) ***

*** Edited by mod ***
Last edited by limecat on March 20th, 2017, 10:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Potentially libelous comment removed
*** Edited by mod - WUM ***
MunsterSugar
Knowledgeable
 
Posts: 275
Joined: February 20th, 2017, 11:14 am

Re: Joe Schmidt 2017

Postby wixfjord » March 19th, 2017, 10:42 pm

MunsterSugar wrote:*** Edited by Mod ***


Can you please stop?
wixfjord
Girvan Dempsey
 
Posts: 2808
Joined: April 13th, 2009, 1:00 pm

Re: Joe Schmidt 2017

Postby simonokeeffe » March 19th, 2017, 10:44 pm

Oldschoolsocks wrote:
MunsterSugar wrote:
Oldschoolsocks wrote:Actually that's an interesting conversation, is Zebo unfit or being restricted?

I hope it's the latter, and he has a much stronger end of season than he had a 6N (barring Italy, he was excellent v Italy)

*** Edited by Mod ***

*** Edited by Mod ***


dont feed the bears OSS
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
User avatar
simonokeeffe
Leo Cullen
 
Posts: 15735
Joined: July 21st, 2011, 3:04 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Joe Schmidt 2017

Postby paddyor » March 19th, 2017, 11:00 pm

Its true about luck. I think we'd 1 lineout on the right side of the pitch in an attacking position. Youre heavily reliant on where the opposition screw up by giving up a penalty or onock on for an atacking platform. Zebo was quiet yesterday but we did a lot of our attacking from left to right, just didnt get a lot of chances.

Whats also true is that excepting Italy, the defenses hes faced for Ireland are a step up on anything this season for Munster. Youre only really gonna get the ball in space 2 or 3 times in space at this level. Maybe more if there's a mistake, you have to make them count.
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014
Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
paddyor
Girvan Dempsey
 
Posts: 2716
Joined: November 17th, 2012, 12:48 am

Re: Joe Schmidt 2017

Postby MunsterSugar » March 19th, 2017, 11:14 pm

simonokeeffe wrote:
Oldschoolsocks wrote:
MunsterSugar wrote:*** Edited by mod ***

*** edited by mod (response to potentially libelous comment ***


dont feed the bears OSS

*** Edited by mod ***
Last edited by limecat on March 20th, 2017, 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Potentially libelous comment removed
*** Edited by mod - WUM ***
MunsterSugar
Knowledgeable
 
Posts: 275
Joined: February 20th, 2017, 11:14 am

Re: Joe Schmidt 2017

Postby ronk » March 19th, 2017, 11:35 pm

paddyor wrote:Its true about luck. I think we'd 1 lineout on the right side of the pitch in an attacking position. Youre heavily reliant on where the opposition screw up by giving up a penalty or onock on for an atacking platform. Zebo was quiet yesterday but we did a lot of our attacking from left to right, just didnt get a lot of chances.

Whats also true is that excepting Italy, the defenses hes faced for Ireland are a step up on anything this season for Munster. Youre only really gonna get the ball in space 2 or 3 times in space at this level. Maybe more if there's a mistake, you have to make them count.


Differences at this level are very small in general. Look are the Kinsella analysis of the Scotland game to see how minor imprecisions under pressure added up to missed opportunities.
User avatar
ronk
Devin Toner
 
Posts: 8468
Joined: April 9th, 2009, 12:42 am

Re: Joe Schmidt 2017

Postby jimbobjoe » March 20th, 2017, 12:28 am

MunsterSugar wrote:
simonokeeffe wrote:
Oldschoolsocks wrote:*** Edited by Mod ***


dont feed the bears OSS

*** Edited by Mod ***


Proof?
I'll die before I surrender, Tim.
User avatar
jimbobjoe
Enlightened
 
Posts: 809
Joined: September 16th, 2009, 9:23 pm

Re: Joe Schmidt 2017

Postby dropkick » March 20th, 2017, 12:49 am

MunsterSugar wrote:*** Edited by Mod ***



If you want to be taken seriously you have to be able to debate with people. *** Edited by Mod - response to quoted post ***
User avatar
dropkick
Mullet
 
Posts: 1148
Joined: January 2nd, 2007, 1:27 am
Location: Cork

Re: Joe Schmidt 2017

Postby MunsterSugar » March 20th, 2017, 12:50 am

Over in "Decisive Factor thread" and even after explained still no apology.
*** Edited by mod - WUM ***
MunsterSugar
Knowledgeable
 
Posts: 275
Joined: February 20th, 2017, 11:14 am

Re: Joe Schmidt 2017

Postby janeymac08 » March 20th, 2017, 2:00 am

hugonaut wrote:My only real conclusion is that there's a lot of chance involved in terms of try-scoring at test level. Zebo has been staggeringly productive at club level as a try-scorer, but far less so at test level. He has bagged 8 tries in 33 tests [29+4/2340 mins] which compares unfavourably in every regard – fewer tries, fewer tries/start, fewer tries/match, fewer tries/gametime – with Fergus McFadden's 10 tries in 32 tests [15+17/1430mins ].

I don't think that makes Ferg a better winger than Zebo [although to me it shows that the criticism aimed at the former from certain quarters is over the top]; I think it shows that there's a good bit of a] being in the right place at the right time; and b] taking chances when they're available to you. I can't recall Zebo fluffing many chances this season for Ireland, so the most likely scenario is that the chances haven't really come his way this season. They've gone Earls' way, and he has taken them.


Zebo plays fullback for Munster, not wing. Earls has been playing on the left wing this season for Munster, so maybe thats has something to do with scoring opportunities.
User avatar
janeymac08
Mullet
 
Posts: 1574
Joined: August 4th, 2008, 10:32 pm
Location: D6

Re: Joe Schmidt 2017

Postby simonokeeffe » March 21st, 2017, 10:41 pm

spotted elsewhere but Ireland have given first caps to 19 players since the world cup
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
User avatar
simonokeeffe
Leo Cullen
 
Posts: 15735
Joined: July 21st, 2011, 3:04 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Joe Schmidt 2017

Postby ronk » March 21st, 2017, 10:55 pm

simonokeeffe wrote:spotted elsewhere but Ireland have given first caps to 19 players since the world cup


20 but I'd include the 3 guys who were capped in the warmups. Conway got his debut now too.
User avatar
ronk
Devin Toner
 
Posts: 8468
Joined: April 9th, 2009, 12:42 am

Re: Joe Schmidt 2017

Postby simonokeeffe » March 22nd, 2017, 4:09 pm

ronk wrote:
simonokeeffe wrote:spotted elsewhere but Ireland have given first caps to 19 players since the world cup


20 but I'd include the 3 guys who were capped in the warmups. Conway got his debut now too.


damn bbc graphics department

wales are on 3
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
User avatar
simonokeeffe
Leo Cullen
 
Posts: 15735
Joined: July 21st, 2011, 3:04 am
Location: Dublin

Re: Joe Schmidt 2017

Postby blockhead » April 5th, 2017, 12:06 pm

Ronan O’Gara is set to join former teammates Girvan Dempsey and Felix Jones as part of an extended coaching team on Ireland’s summer tour to the US and Japan.

Couldn't be bothered opening up a summer tour thread.
You know I'm going to lose,
And gambling's for fools,
But that's the way I like it baby, I don't want to live FOREVER!
User avatar
blockhead
Malcolm O'Kelly
 
Posts: 3733
Joined: December 14th, 2011, 2:20 pm
Location: Bastardstown, Co. Wexford

Re: Joe Schmidt 2017

Postby Dave Cahill » April 5th, 2017, 12:18 pm

Looks like the Joe Schmidt Summer School for Aspiring Coaches Who Can't Read Good And Wanna Learn To Do Other Stuff Good Too is open for business
I have Bumbleflex
User avatar
Dave Cahill
Gordon D'Arcy
 
Posts: 20368
Joined: January 24th, 2006, 4:32 pm
Location: None of your damn business

Re: Joe Schmidt 2017

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » April 5th, 2017, 12:30 pm

That's a lot of new blood considering we'll only be down one coach. I really like that though, Ireland need some new voices in attack and hopefully they can add something and won't just be keeping quiet and observing Joe. Good to see ROG being brought in from outside the system, wouldn't have expected that.
User avatar
LeRouxIsPHat
Shane Horgan
 
Posts: 10089
Joined: January 22nd, 2009, 8:49 pm

PreviousNext

Return to International Rugby

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Trendiction-Bot [Bot] and 2 guests