Joe Schmidt 2017

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Re: Joe Schmidt 2017

Postby MunsterSugar » March 16th, 2017, 10:15 am

curates_egg wrote:
MunsterSugar wrote:
paddyor wrote:[quote="MunsterSugar"]I'm back :)

Fair question but is Schmidt's post RWC record vs Tier 1 teams a bit overhyped?
Like ok take out NZ win and like rest is average really

We've "declined" all the way in the rankings from 8th to 4th in the past 12 months. Is that what you mean?

Does ranking cover the record vs tier 1 teams. 1 win over New Zealand was great. I'm not discounting it but are we making mistake of just living off that or kicking on?
And would you agree so as you say a 4th place team in World should be expecting to at least finish 2nd once out of 2 years in 6Nations or make a Semi Final of a World Cup if not meeting a team ranked above you?
Also lets bot forget while we won against the worst SA team in a long time 1/3, England beat Aus down there in all their tests and didn't make too big a deal of it. My point being the mentality of a top 4 team is you expect to win at least 90% of games. As you can agree our record is below and Schmidts overall record is 65%. Loose vs England and guess who's record is better. Eddie O'Sullivans. And Eddie played more tier 1 teams. That's stats


You're back and still not making sense. As you note in your last line, he is our most successful coach. He's won two championships and beaten the All Blacks, and still has the highest win ratio.
You may want to wish that away for whatever reason - just like the rest of the country would like Munster to stop droning on about having beaten the ABs before I was born (and I am now definitely middle aged) - but, even if we lose on Saturday and he momentarily goes below Eddie's (another great Ireland coach) win ratio, he will still be our most successful coach.

Now a separate question is whether he is still the right coach going forward, which is a legitimate question. If you want to engage in a meaningful debate about that - and have people take you seriously - you would be better off putting your provincial dislike of Schmidt and his achievements aside and engaging in an analysis the current situation.[/quote]
Serious question!
Where did I say he wasn't our most successful coach?
And where did I use any provincal bias?
Not sure where I said I'd provincial dislike byt again can you point out where I'm so wrong?

I'd happily respond if you showed that?
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Re: Joe Schmidt 2017

Postby Peg Leg » March 16th, 2017, 11:37 am

I like Joe, but like every other coach in his position, his task is to deliver in the 6N and fock everything else. Experimentation is done somewhere else, prepare for the next 6N is the goal from the last week in March to the first week in February. The plan of owning the ball and be less sh!t than the other team is letting us down. Mainly due in what seems to be an apparent player mis-trust of other player positioning in defence and a refusal to do anything that could isolate you from your pack in attack.
To top it off, our resourcing of rucks appears to operate on a wait and see basis, which is more cure than prevention. You need more heft in the ruck if it looks like there's a chance of losing the ball... result, too many in the ruck, less receivers, slow ball. The Murray decision is the one that stings most, Marmion is not worse than a one armed man.

This period for me painted the picture as to where Joe's head is at, in technicolour: The big game guys with the most experience are the ones who will get us out of this.
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Re: Joe Schmidt 2017

Postby MunsterSugar » March 16th, 2017, 11:47 am

Peg Leg that's my point.
I'm not discounting what Joe has done. But it's an ever moving game. My issue is we aren't trusting the larger panel. A change is needed in backrow for balance. Be it Leavy or O'Mahony.
At hooker Best was very poor last week and vs Scotland yet all Scannell was trusted for in 1 min vs Wales. Furlong was gassed as it's hard for any prop to go 80 these days yet Ryan played 1 minute.
To play Schmidt ball you need top function set piece. Outside scrum we don't have that at moment
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Re: Joe Schmidt 2017

Postby Peg Leg » March 16th, 2017, 11:58 am

MunsterSugar wrote:Peg Leg that's my point.


Ok, you can have it back but mam wants to wash and iron it first, I just wanted to borrow it for a while.
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Re: Joe Schmidt 2017

Postby Oldschool » March 19th, 2017, 10:40 am

It's always easier to be critical when the team has won.
Selecting injured players Joe is a bad, bad policy.
It's also unfair to the players in question and to the team in general.
Imagine Joe. You're in the team and you know one if your team matesvis carrying an injury - do you not think that might be in the back of your mind, maybe cause some hesitation at a vital moment.
Payne couldn't come off yesterday because Earls was injured - was that fair?
Stop this madness now Joe - If the last year has proven anything it has proven that we have the depth - It's up to you to show some trust.
Were you really that surprised by the hugely positive contributions from all the new/newish caps in the last year.
No failures is impressive and for sure you deserve credit too.
Trust, Joe, is a two way street.
In Joe we trust.
Now you must show trust too!
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Re: Joe Schmidt 2017

Postby munster#1 » March 19th, 2017, 12:44 pm

For me Joe is without doubt a top coach, and we are lucky to have him. But that does not mean that he hasn't made a number of issues.

His selection policy is completely wrong imo. Ireland right now, like Ireland in the past, have a fairly set starting 15.
In this six nations, the only selection surprise was Toner being dropped.

This creates a poor culture, it removes completion for jerseys, which makes players comfortable.
It has to also effect the players that are on the outside looking in.

Gilroy is a great example of this. Gets called in for the Italy game, scores a second half hat trick, and isn't seen again.
What does this tell Gilroy, and every other player in the extended squad?

Marmion showed not only do we have options at scrum half, but we have team capable of playing with ball in hand.
Losing Murray forced the game to be played more from 10, and allowed players to play heads up rugby, rather than playing kick chase from 9.

We, like all teams require a strong set piece, to do this we need 3 lineout options. We need either pom or Henderson to play at 6.
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Re: Joe Schmidt 2017

Postby fourthirtythree » March 19th, 2017, 1:08 pm

I agree with your last two sentences but I can't get behind Gilroy. Conway had a pretty poor game yesterday - he looked a bit like he froze and lacked confidence - which was a surprise. I don't think it was in any way mad to select him ahead of Gilroy. It just didn't work out that well and he may now be behind Gilroy again. He was on the bench primarily as full back cover as Payne was not fit.

For me that was the selection policy that was troubling this six nations - playing unfit players. Yesterday Earls, Payne, perhaps Zebo. Against Wales the crazy keeping Murray on with one arm rather than playing Marmion..
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Re: Joe Schmidt 2017

Postby MunsterSugar » March 19th, 2017, 1:13 pm

fourthirtythree wrote:I agree with your last two sentences but I can't get behind Gilroy. Conway had a pretty poor game yesterday - he looked a bit like he froze and lacked confidence - which was a surprise. I don't think it was in any way mad to select him ahead of Gilroy. It just didn't work out that well and he may now be behind Gilroy again. He was on the bench primarily as full back cover as Payne was not fit.

For me that was the selection policy that was troubling this six nations - playing unfit players. Yesterday Earls, Payne, perhaps Zebo. Against Wales the crazy keeping Murray on with one arm rather than playing Marmion..

To be fair Gilroy/Conway debate is 50/50 both had form and I'm sure Schmidt had reason.

On end I agree. But it's just Joe needs to trust guys. Scannell should've seen more time this 6Nations. Best wasn't great.
Also if you notice after 65mins Furlong dipped. John Ryan needed to be trusted. Furlong is still young and building his engine at 3. He's vital going forward and we can't flog him or come his late 20s he will be battered. I hopeLions tour won't flog him either, if it doesn't he will learn off other guys out there and return even better
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Re: Joe Schmidt 2017

Postby munster#1 » March 19th, 2017, 1:20 pm

fourthirtythree wrote:I agree with your last two sentences but I can't get behind Gilroy. Conway had a pretty poor game yesterday - he looked a bit like he froze and lacked confidence - which was a surprise. I don't think it was in any way mad to select him ahead of Gilroy. It just didn't work out that well and he may now be behind Gilroy again. He was on the bench primarily as full back cover as Payne was not fit.

For me that was the selection policy that was troubling this six nations - playing unfit players. Yesterday Earls, Payne, perhaps Zebo. Against Wales the crazy keeping Murray on with one arm rather than playing Marmion..

Tbh, I wouldn't of had Gilroy near the match day squad, I was merely using him as an example of a system failure.

If I were a player in the larger squad, I would see what happened to Gilroy, and seriously question what I have to do to get into the squad.

If were a first choice player, I would be happy that no matter how well someone plays, they are not taking my shirt.
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Re: Joe Schmidt 2017

Postby fourthirtythree » March 19th, 2017, 1:57 pm

But Best yesterday was having a fantastic game, as was Furlong. I wouldn't have taken either off. In general I agree that we should have used the bench earlier throughout the tournament. Less so yesterday.

I was worried that they took off Marmion too soon! (they didn't). I'm sure that without injuries they would have taken Payne off early enough. The forced sub at half time must have made Schmidt rue not having a multiple position option as sub outhalf. And my Ulster friends thought Paddy should have been starting anyway... Poor Paddy, I can see him losing the bench spot if Sexton stays fit.

As for guys losing their spot, who really? McGrath saw off Healy. Best had up and down form so Scannell made a real claim but Best is captain and hard to dislodge. Toner lost his spot to great effect. O'Brien didn't but delivered a decent performance yesterday. Heaslip got injured but to be honest CJ didn't have as good a game from 8 as he has from 6.
The half backs are untouchable because they are easily the best.
Henshaw has no real competition
Ringrose, who I have criticised pretty heavily this 6N was (according to the Grauniad) our best player yesterday. He was there or therabouts. Other than that I thought his place was to be taken by Payne, and Aki will certainly be looking for it. There wasn't realistic competition during the 6N.
Earls is our best winger so I don't see where his competition is.
Zebo had a mixed 6N (he was outstanding v Italy but was sluggish overall, and the Grauniad singled him out as the poorest performer in the back 3) so maybe there was a call to see someone else instead of him. But would you have wanted say Sweetnam to get his first cap yesterday? He wasn't ready in the Autumn. I wouldn't have fancied Adam Byrne there.
And Payne actually wasn't good yesterday, two lovely breaks evenly matched with two awful knock ons and a lot of poor positioning. I don't think Rob should be quaking in his boots based on that.
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Re: Joe Schmidt 2017

Postby Oldschool » March 19th, 2017, 4:52 pm

fourthirtythree wrote:But Best yesterday was having a fantastic game, as was Furlong. I wouldn't have taken either off. In general I agree that we should have used the bench earlier throughout the tournament. Less so yesterday.

I was worried that they took off Marmion too soon! (they didn't). I'm sure that without injuries they would have taken Payne off early enough. The forced sub at half time must have made Schmidt rue not having a multiple position option as sub outhalf. And my Ulster friends thought Paddy should have been starting anyway... Poor Paddy, I can see him losing the bench spot if Sexton stays fit.

As for guys losing their spot, who really? McGrath saw off Healy. Best had up and down form so Scannell made a real claim but Best is captain and hard to dislodge. Toner lost his spot to great effect. O'Brien didn't but delivered a decent performance yesterday. Heaslip got injured but to be honest CJ didn't have as good a game from 8 as he has from 6.
The half backs are untouchable because they are easily the best.
Henshaw has no real competition
Ringrose, who I have criticised pretty heavily this 6N was (according to the Grauniad) our best player yesterday. He was there or therabouts. Other than that I thought his place was to be taken by Payne, and Aki will certainly be looking for it. There wasn't realistic competition during the 6N.
Earls is our best winger so I don't see where his competition is.
Zebo had a mixed 6N (he was outstanding v Italy but was sluggish overall, and the Grauniad singled him out as the poorest performer in the back 3) so maybe there was a call to see someone else instead of him. But would you have wanted say Sweetnam to get his first cap yesterday? He wasn't ready in the Autumn. I wouldn't have fancied Adam Byrne there.
And Payne actually wasn't good yesterday, two lovely breaks evenly matched with two awful knock ons and a lot of poor positioning. I don't think Rob should be quaking in his boots based on that.

Yesterday wasn't the day for parachuting players into their first cap.
Scotland and Italy would be games you would have expected to be able to risk someone like Byrne or Sweetman or Conway.
Especially as it seems obvious that Zebo wasn't fit.
Furlong was physically shattered, of course he should have come off earlier - our scrum reasserted its' advantage when Ryan came on. Leaving Furlong and Best on could have cost us the game, a couple of scrum penos and line out mauls and we'd have been on red alert.
Aki's arrival will be interesting - Don't be surprised if you see Henshaw moving to FB.
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Re: Joe Schmidt 2017

Postby MunsterSugar » March 19th, 2017, 5:02 pm

Oldschool wrote:
fourthirtythree wrote:But Best yesterday was having a fantastic game, as was Furlong. I wouldn't have taken either off. In general I agree that we should have used the bench earlier throughout the tournament. Less so yesterday.

I was worried that they took off Marmion too soon! (they didn't). I'm sure that without injuries they would have taken Payne off early enough. The forced sub at half time must have made Schmidt rue not having a multiple position option as sub outhalf. And my Ulster friends thought Paddy should have been starting anyway... Poor Paddy, I can see him losing the bench spot if Sexton stays fit.

As for guys losing their spot, who really? McGrath saw off Healy. Best had up and down form so Scannell made a real claim but Best is captain and hard to dislodge. Toner lost his spot to great effect. O'Brien didn't but delivered a decent performance yesterday. Heaslip got injured but to be honest CJ didn't have as good a game from 8 as he has from 6.
The half backs are untouchable because they are easily the best.
Henshaw has no real competition
Ringrose, who I have criticised pretty heavily this 6N was (according to the Grauniad) our best player yesterday. He was there or therabouts. Other than that I thought his place was to be taken by Payne, and Aki will certainly be looking for it. There wasn't realistic competition during the 6N.
Earls is our best winger so I don't see where his competition is.
Zebo had a mixed 6N (he was outstanding v Italy but was sluggish overall, and the Grauniad singled him out as the poorest performer in the back 3) so maybe there was a call to see someone else instead of him. But would you have wanted say Sweetnam to get his first cap yesterday? He wasn't ready in the Autumn. I wouldn't have fancied Adam Byrne there.
And Payne actually wasn't good yesterday, two lovely breaks evenly matched with two awful knock ons and a lot of poor positioning. I don't think Rob should be quaking in his boots based on that.

Yesterday wasn't the day for parachuting players into their first cap.
Scotland and Italy would be games you would have expected to be able to risk someone like Byrne or Sweetman or Conway.
Especially as it seems obvious that Zebo wasn't fit.
Furlong was physically shattered, of course he should have come off earlier - our scrum reasserted its' advantage when Ryan came on. Leaving Furlong and Best on could have cost us the game, a couple of scrum penos and line out mauls and we'd have been on red alert.
Aki's arrival will be interesting - Don't be surprised if you see Henshaw moving to FB.


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Re: Joe Schmidt 2017

Postby munster#1 » March 19th, 2017, 6:00 pm

Oldschool wrote:
fourthirtythree wrote:But Best yesterday was having a fantastic game, as was Furlong. I wouldn't have taken either off. In general I agree that we should have used the bench earlier throughout the tournament. Less so yesterday.

I was worried that they took off Marmion too soon! (they didn't). I'm sure that without injuries they would have taken Payne off early enough. The forced sub at half time must have made Schmidt rue not having a multiple position option as sub outhalf. And my Ulster friends thought Paddy should have been starting anyway... Poor Paddy, I can see him losing the bench spot if Sexton stays fit.

As for guys losing their spot, who really? McGrath saw off Healy. Best had up and down form so Scannell made a real claim but Best is captain and hard to dislodge. Toner lost his spot to great effect. O'Brien didn't but delivered a decent performance yesterday. Heaslip got injured but to be honest CJ didn't have as good a game from 8 as he has from 6.
The half backs are untouchable because they are easily the best.
Henshaw has no real competition
Ringrose, who I have criticised pretty heavily this 6N was (according to the Grauniad) our best player yesterday. He was there or therabouts. Other than that I thought his place was to be taken by Payne, and Aki will certainly be looking for it. There wasn't realistic competition during the 6N.
Earls is our best winger so I don't see where his competition is.
Zebo had a mixed 6N (he was outstanding v Italy but was sluggish overall, and the Grauniad singled him out as the poorest performer in the back 3) so maybe there was a call to see someone else instead of him. But would you have wanted say Sweetnam to get his first cap yesterday? He wasn't ready in the Autumn. I wouldn't have fancied Adam Byrne there.
And Payne actually wasn't good yesterday, two lovely breaks evenly matched with two awful knock ons and a lot of poor positioning. I don't think Rob should be quaking in his boots based on that.

Yesterday wasn't the day for parachuting players into their first cap.
Scotland and Italy would be games you would have expected to be able to risk someone like Byrne or Sweetman or Conway.
Especially as it seems obvious that Zebo wasn't fit.
Furlong was physically shattered, of course he should have come off earlier - our scrum reasserted its' advantage when Ryan came on. Leaving Furlong and Best on could have cost us the game, a couple of scrum penos and line out mauls and we'd have been on red alert.
Aki's arrival will be interesting - Don't be surprised if you see Henshaw moving to FB.


Zebo is the player that I am most interested in. Imo he didn't have a poor 6n, but he was quiet by his standards.
As a Munster fan I am hoping that he goes out against Toulouse and scores a hat trick.

We will soon find out if it is the restrictive game plan that meant we didn't get to see Zebo play how he has been all season, or if as you say, he is unfit.
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Re: Joe Schmidt 2017

Postby Oldschoolsocks » March 19th, 2017, 8:08 pm

Actually that's an interesting conversation, is Zebo unfit or being restricted?

I hope it's the latter, and he has a much stronger end of season than he had a 6N (barring Italy, he was excellent v Italy)
I just wanted to see Gordon D'Arcy get a 'back, sack and crack wax'
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Re: Joe Schmidt 2017

Postby wixfjord » March 19th, 2017, 8:13 pm

munster#1 wrote:We will soon find out if it is the restrictive game plan that meant we didn't get to see Zebo play how he has been all season, or if as you say, he is unfit.


Hugo had an excellent post on this during the week. The 'Zebo being restricted' argument was firmly put to bed by it.
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Re: Joe Schmidt 2017

Postby fourthirtythree » March 19th, 2017, 8:31 pm

Individuals find it easier to score tries at club level. I didn't see any of England's briliant finishers running the length of the pitch and scoring yesterday either.

It doesn't work like that.
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Re: Joe Schmidt 2017

Postby munster#1 » March 19th, 2017, 8:33 pm

wixfjord wrote:
munster#1 wrote:We will soon find out if it is the restrictive game plan that meant we didn't get to see Zebo play how he has been all season, or if as you say, he is unfit.


Hugo had an excellent post on this during the week. The 'Zebo being restricted' argument was firmly put to bed by it.

In all fairness Hugo is not really the barometer on many things rugby related.
We will see what the truth is when Zebo returns to Munster.
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Re: Joe Schmidt 2017

Postby fourthirtythree » March 19th, 2017, 8:54 pm

Individuals score more easily at club level. It's not a valid comparison. All you will see is how he plays against club teams.

When he was put clean through against Wales he was running in cement.
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Re: Joe Schmidt 2017

Postby simonokeeffe » March 19th, 2017, 8:58 pm

Oldschoolsocks wrote:Actually that's an interesting conversation, is Zebo unfit or being restricted?

I hope it's the latter, and he has a much stronger end of season than he had a 6N (barring Italy, he was excellent v Italy)


hes also picking up two or three knocks per match
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Re: Joe Schmidt 2017

Postby MunsterSugar » March 19th, 2017, 9:05 pm

Oldschoolsocks wrote:Actually that's an interesting conversation, is Zebo unfit or being restricted?

I hope it's the latter, and he has a much stronger end of season than he had a 6N (barring Italy, he was excellent v Italy)

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