Tour to Japan

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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby Dave Cahill » June 24th, 2017, 9:15 pm

hugonaut wrote:
Dave Cahill wrote: The opposition was so weak I don't know it this tour achieved anything really.


Disagree. Firstly, it was invaluable just to visit and play in Japan, where we'll be playing in a World Cup in two years' time. Familiarising themselves with things like the stadia, the playing surfaces, the general climate, matchday protocol [for example, getting to the stadium on time!] is all exceptionally useful experience.

Secondly, we'll actually be playing Japan in our group, so going head-to-head with their players and seeing how they play on the ground, how they're coached, how they react, is eminently useful too.

Thirdly, bringing in young, talented players [James Ryan, Stockdale, Porter, Luke McGrath, Leavy, Conan, Rory Scannell, Treadwell] who have had little or no interaction with the national coaching set up and having them in camp for a solid 3+ weeks is a great investment. Even guys who didn't get a start [like Dave Heffernan and Rory O'Loughlin] have been given a serious degree of exposure to the standards expected of them, and that should in turn raise their own personal standards.

Granted, we could have toured somewhere else with the same squad, but we would have missed out on all the World Cup specific elements of preparation. In any case, Japan are ranked 11th in the world at the moment – ahead of Georgia, Tonga, Samoa and Italy.

So when you package all that up as a single tour, I think it has been really worthwhile.


Well the proof of that pudding will be in 2019 I guess if we can, for the first time in Irish rugby history, win a knockout match at a Rugby World Cup.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby suisse » June 25th, 2017, 4:23 am

Surprised by a lot of the negativity here with regards to Japan and the rubbish Gavin Cumniskey talks on Newstalk. He said after the first test that we "can't take Japanese rugby seriously." It isn't that long ago that Ireland were beaten 60-0 in New Zealand and every so often we do experience some unbelievable and embarrassing hidings. I'm sure the likes of Cummiskey would be screaming disrespect if the NZ media or the england media after the game in which Tom Court replaced Mike Ross were saying Ireland are not to be takentering seriously. We did also lose to Scotland and Wales this year.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby suisse » June 25th, 2017, 4:26 am

Cummiskey on the whole is a problem. Ridiculously over rating irish players. One moment he's thrash talking Japan and the next he's saying leinster will have "world class players" who can't make the bench next season. Who is he talking about? Rhys Ruddock isn't world. Neither are Jack Conan or Josh van Der flier. Very good to excellent but they're not world class.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby suisse » June 25th, 2017, 4:28 am

I'm also dubious of someone who when asked for his thoughts on Japan, an amazing country to travel in, immediately starts with the WiFi coverage. He was right to mention transport and cleanliness after but what else? Did he learn anything when he was there or did he just spend the whole time talking nonsense?
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby Hippo » June 25th, 2017, 12:18 pm

suisse wrote:I'm also dubious of someone who when asked for his thoughts on Japan, an amazing country to travel in, immediately starts with the WiFi coverage. He was right to mention transport and cleanliness after but what else? Did he learn anything when he was there or did he just spend the whole time talking nonsense?


Yesterday's piece was almost unreadable. I've no idea of the points he was trying to make - if there were any.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby paddyor » June 25th, 2017, 5:41 pm

Suisse, i see the mistake youve made in reading cummiskey. Can you?
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby Oldschool » June 25th, 2017, 8:08 pm

Agree with most of the +ve things said about this tour.
This was a huge opportunity for Joe to expose a load of young players to his way of thinking and coaching.
On top of that we had three young, developing Irish coaches getting similar exposure.
This kind of opportunity only comes once every four years so something positive to be said for Lions tours after all.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby Ruckedtobits » June 25th, 2017, 8:29 pm

The parallel in topics between Cumiskey's piece in IT and Bren Fannings piece in Sunday Indo are obvious. However, one of the two managed to coherently put together a piece about the concerns about how RWC 2019 might not be a mega success unless there is focus on aspects that visitors might be concerned with, which don't impact on Japanese resident (and the Japan RFU organising Commiee), whilst the other wrote 1,200 words with no beginning, middle, end or theme - an amazing feat but not unusual for GC. Go figure or comment in Letters to the Editor.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby Ruckedtobits » June 25th, 2017, 9:58 pm

The Tour was valuable and a success for a variety of reasons, IMO.

It allowed JS, and his fellow National Coaches, to

a) assess the potential of a further group of Irish players with 2019 in mind;
b) have external and objective assessment of the progress, by three external, younger, Coaches, of the same group of players from the same experiences that Joe and his colleagues were reviewing;
c) encourage this group of players, in the absent of 11 senior players, to assume, or graduate to, various levels of leadership within an Irish Squad context;
d) inculturate a significant group of the Irish RWC Squad 2019 to Japanese society and rugby and minimise the chances of a repetition of Le Lac, Bordeaux, 2007;
e) continue the rugby Coaching development of Dempsey, O'Gara and Jones in the Schmidt model of that role;
f) further progress the rugby development and particular disciplines required to fulfill their potential for more than 50% of the 2019 Irish Squad;
g) write-off a small number of this Squad as unlikely to progress to the level required for RWC 2019.

There may be more specific objectives that JS had for this Tour. However, this list is a fairly reasonable start and almost certainly all of the above have been acheived in a satisfactory manner.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby suisse » June 26th, 2017, 12:32 am

paddyor wrote:Suisse, i see the mistake youve made in reading cummiskey. Can you?


I didn't read him. I only listen to him on Newstalk. I hoped for good analysis of the Ireland tour since I can't get to watch the games where I am. Without listening, I have to check some cr@p newspapers online. If you're fortunate enough to see the games, then you don't need to resort to this. Sadly, it is all I have. Sure, I could turn off, but I don't think it is much to ask for to hear proper commentary.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby wixfjord » June 26th, 2017, 12:50 pm

I will never understand how guys like Kelly, Cummiskey, George etc actually get hired. Seriously who hires them? There has to be better journalists out there?
There are guys on here who are far more informed and infinitely better writers.

Each of them have their own issues. Kelly tries to make himself sound smart by using big words, yet only makes himself look like a tool. George was obviously slightly mental, and Cummiskey just comes across as an entitled private school tool.

/rant over.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby wixfjord » June 26th, 2017, 12:51 pm

Anyway, anyone care to divulge how Porter and Ryan did at the weekend?
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby FLIP » June 26th, 2017, 1:12 pm

wixfjord wrote:Anyway, anyone care to divulge how Porter and Ryan did at the weekend?


Porter was under pressure in some of the scrums and was penalised for going to ground, but considering Ryan made no ground against his opposite number either I wouldn't be that critical about him.

Ryan was very dynamic upon coming on.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby leinsterforever » June 26th, 2017, 2:49 pm

wixfjord wrote:Anyway, anyone care to divulge how Porter and Ryan did at the weekend?


I don't think there's any question that Ryan was a big improvement on Treadwell. He got a lot of possessions and carried very well. He's very clever in contact, twisting and stepping to try to exploit the path of least resistance. And he looked to get his upper body free so he could offload. There was one carry in particular where he made a lot of ground when he had no right to and freed his arms, but there was no one there in support. Someone said somewhere that he was Ireland's best player in the second half, and I wouldn't disagree with that. Very good call by Schmidt to take him on tour
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby cormac » June 26th, 2017, 4:25 pm

55 different players capped for Ireland this season, 45 of them starting at least one match. (Players who didn't start any matches in CAPS)

Loose-head Prop: Cian Healy, Jack McGrath, DAVE KILCOYNE
Hooker: James Tracy, Niall Scannell, Rory Best, Sean Cronin, DAVE HEFFERNAN
Tight-head Prop: John Ryan, Tadhg Furlong, Finlay Bealham, ANDREW PORTER
2nd Row: Devin Toner, Quinn Roux, Donnacha Ryan, Ultan Dillane, Kieran Treadwell, Iain Henderson, Billy Holland, JAMES RYAN
Flanker: Rhys Ruddock, Peter O'Mahony, CJ Stander, Josh van der Flier, Dan Leavy, Sean O'Brien, Jordi Murphy, SEAN REIDY
No. 8: Jack Conan, Jamie Heaslip, Jack O'Donoghue

Scrum-half: Kieran Marmion, Luke McGrath, Conor Murray, JOHN COONEY
Fly-half: Paddy Jackson, Joey Carbery, Johnny Sexton, IAN KEATLEY
Centre: Luke Marshall, Rory Scannell, Robbie Henshaw, Garry Ringrose, Jared Payne, RORY O'LOUGHLIN
Winger: Jacob Stockdale, Keith Earls, Simon Zebo, Andrew Conway, Andrew Trimble, Craig Gilroy, TOMMY BOWE, NIYI ADEOLOKUN
Full-back: Tiernan O'Halloran, Rob Kearney
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby Ruckedtobits » June 26th, 2017, 4:52 pm

Certainly Ryan in no way out of place at this level. It's worth slowing the tape and just focussing on everything he does from the moment he arrives (51 mins). He is in shot for a high proportion of the action from then till the end of the game, which is extraordinary for a second-row.

But, it's not all perfect. On 54.06 minutes, he over-reacted to a Japanese player just on their 22m line (15), who dummied to go right, effectively down the blindside, when Ryan was in the defensive 'curtain' moving crossfield covering between Scannell and John Ryan. He reacted to the dummy and crossed behind three Irish players (Scannell, Conan and JVDF) to cover the potential break, instead of having the confidence in his team-mates. The Japanese player dummied and passed straight back to Matsuhema (13) who made a clean linebreak through the space vacated by Ryan.

However, the next 15 seconds showed his class, as he rapidly chased back to assist Stockdale and Jackson in effecting the tackle on the Irish 22m line and then helped Stockdale to compete for a turnover and eventually get a penalty for his efforts.

At this top level, Ryan will learn, he must do his own job completely first and have confidence in his colleagues' ability. Having done that, he can go back for extras.

All in all though another top-class cameo. Now we need to see him go for 55-70 mins at Pro12 level alongside Dev and see whether he can handle the physicality of that effort and still stay at the high performance level.

If he can do what Conan has done over the last 10 months of this Season, by this time next year, James Ryan will be an automatic choice for Leinster and close to a Squad slot for Ireland.

He's not Retallick or Ethebeth yet, but he and Itoje on on that pathway.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby Lar » June 27th, 2017, 1:27 pm

Much as I have been impressed with Ryan let us not get too carried away. As was posted on another thread, Itoje has a 6N winners medal, an Aviva Prem winners medal, two ECC winners medals and has been selected for the Lions. Ryan has a bit to go before being mentioned in the same breath.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby Ruckedtobits » June 27th, 2017, 1:33 pm

Lar wrote:Much as I have been impressed with Ryan let us not get too carried away. As was posted on another thread, Itoje has a 6N winners medal, an Aviva Prem winners medal, two ECC winners medals and has been selected for the Lions. Ryan has a bit to go before being mentioned in the same breath.


Agreed, but he has much of the raw material and his Under 20 performances against his peers, over two seasons, indicate that he is a good learner. He's one player that should be given the experience sooner rather than be held back "until he matures into his body".
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby Lar » June 27th, 2017, 1:36 pm

Ruckedtobits wrote:
Lar wrote:Much as I have been impressed with Ryan let us not get too carried away. As was posted on another thread, Itoje has a 6N winners medal, an Aviva Prem winners medal, two ECC winners medals and has been selected for the Lions. Ryan has a bit to go before being mentioned in the same breath.


Agreed, but he has much of the raw material and his Under 20 performances against his peers, over two seasons, indicate that he is a good learner. He's one player that should be given the experience sooner rather than be held back "until he matures into his body".


I think the very fact he was taken on an Ireland tour this summer before his first Leinster Cap (injuries notwithstanding) is indicative that Joe Schmidt agrees.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby Dave Cahill » June 27th, 2017, 1:40 pm

Or, f%~k you Donnacha
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