Tour to Japan

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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby simonokeeffe » April 7th, 2017, 11:47 am

Dave Cahill wrote:
simonokeeffe wrote:am loving, well mildly amused by, how 99% of the coverage of the extra coaches is ROG but the 2 other home grown coaches currently coaching at European semi finalists are barely getting any mention from the lamestream meeja


Not really surprising though


Not a surprise at all, think I saw someone making that point on twitter

We can just expect it to be referenced ad infinatum in the future
Lets Jones and Girve fly under the radar but will be good experience for all 3
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby Lar » April 7th, 2017, 1:00 pm

Ruckedtobits wrote:
Dave Cahill wrote:
Ruckedtobits wrote:Maybe this is little bit like the obvious game but surely Joe will be trying to take the players (other than those selected for the Lions) who will make the RWC 2019 in Japan?.


Or, he'll bring the players who will make the Autumn Internationals squad - the RWC in 2019 is probably fifth on his priority list right now



Agree that it may be down the priority list but it is a unique opportunity which no Irish players will be able to experience before RWC19.

Japan is a totally different culture and a very different environment from anywhere else. Even though Irish Squad will be in a bubble, the reality is that language, people, humour, customs, transport, food etc will be totally new to Irish guys, as will their rugby style. On this basis I believe that Joe will treat this out of the ordinary process of Squad development.


And Joe would be right. Having a squad (even minus the Lions) in Japan for 2/3 weeks will be invaluable experience for the RWC in 19. Not necessarily in purely Rugby terms but in terms of experiencing that very different culture and way of things.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby ronk » April 9th, 2017, 2:59 pm

It's an especially good chance to develop upcoming players who might make the World Cup squad. The value only really comes if they mix with players who have experience and hunger.

At this point I'd like to see Ross Byrne go, but it wouldn't do him much good if he misses the start of next season and both Sexton and Carbery are away.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby Dave Cahill » April 9th, 2017, 7:21 pm

Lar wrote:
And Joe would be right. Having a squad (even minus the Lions) in Japan for 2/3 weeks will be invaluable experience for the RWC in 19. Not necessarily in purely Rugby terms but in terms of experiencing that very different culture and way of things.


Joe or anyone in the senior echelons of the IRFU couldn't give a cr@p about the Rugby World Cup. Its just not a priority in Irish rugby
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby Donny B. » April 9th, 2017, 7:36 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:
Lar wrote:
And Joe would be right. Having a squad (even minus the Lions) in Japan for 2/3 weeks will be invaluable experience for the RWC in 19. Not necessarily in purely Rugby terms but in terms of experiencing that very different culture and way of things.


Joe or anyone in the senior echelons of the IRFU couldn't give a cr@p about the Rugby World Cup. Its just not a priority in Irish rugby


Sorry, DC you're going to need to explain that one before we get in it!!! I need to actually know what's I'm arguing with you about!!! :D
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby hugonaut » April 9th, 2017, 8:37 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:
Lar wrote:
And Joe would be right. Having a squad (even minus the Lions) in Japan for 2/3 weeks will be invaluable experience for the RWC in 19. Not necessarily in purely Rugby terms but in terms of experiencing that very different culture and way of things.


Joe or anyone in the senior echelons of the IRFU couldn't give a cr@p about the Rugby World Cup. Its just not a priority in Irish rugby


Don't think that's accurate these days Dave. I know in the past that the Six Nations trumped it in IRFU strategic documents, but it had at least equal billing in terms of priorities in the last one I to which I was privy. To say that they 'don't give a cr*p' isn't reflective of the current thinking.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby Lar » April 9th, 2017, 8:49 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:
Lar wrote:
And Joe would be right. Having a squad (even minus the Lions) in Japan for 2/3 weeks will be invaluable experience for the RWC in 19. Not necessarily in purely Rugby terms but in terms of experiencing that very different culture and way of things.


Joe or anyone in the senior echelons of the IRFU couldn't give a cr@p about the Rugby World Cup. Its just not a priority in Irish rugby


Can't agree with that Dave. After the last RWC the Union must be targeting a semi final at least.

Heard Garry Ringrose on Friday saying that keeping the first seed status for the 19 RWC was the team's priority for the last weekend of the 6N.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby Dave Cahill » April 9th, 2017, 9:08 pm

Lar wrote:
Can't agree with that Dave. After the last RWC the Union must be targeting a semi final at least. .


If the RWC was any kind of priority Schmidt would have been sacked after 2015, Kidney after 2011 and O'Sullivan after 2007 - cr@p sub-standard campaigns all. But they weren't because it didn't matter. In fact all were given contract renewals coming into those tournaments.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » April 9th, 2017, 9:35 pm

Shouldn't Joe have been sacked after the last two 6Ns then?
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby jimbobjoe » April 9th, 2017, 9:48 pm

I don't think the IRFU will want Ireland to 'pull an England' in 2023 (if we get it). I'd imagine the target for 2019 is at least a semi final to set a platform.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby hugonaut » April 9th, 2017, 9:56 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:
Lar wrote:
Can't agree with that Dave. After the last RWC the Union must be targeting a semi final at least. .


If the RWC was any kind of priority Schmidt would have been sacked after 2015, Kidney after 2011 and O'Sullivan after 2007 - cr@p sub-standard campaigns all. But they weren't because it didn't matter. In fact all were given contract renewals coming into those tournaments.


That's a staggeringly weak argument Dave – I'm surprised at you!

With regards to Kidney in 2011 and Schmidt in 2015, there's no chance that you get the sack after a 4 win, 1 loss tournament with Ireland. If you think that one middling/disappointing tournament is enough to get turfed out, then Kidney should have got the sack after the 2010 Six Nations and Schmidt should have had the same treatment after last year's Six Nations. By your logic, i.e. the IRFU value the Six Nations higher than the World Cup, those sub-par campaigns would have seen them axed.

Both Kidney and Schmidt took their team through the group stages undefeated in their respective World Cups, both lost their first knock-out match. That's knock-out rugby – it can be exhilarating and disappointing in equal measure.

RWC 2007 was a 'sub-standard' campaign. It was a total clusterf*ck. O'Sullivan had signed a deal in August 2007 to take him into 2012 as head coach of the national team. He never recovered from the World Cup collapse and limped through the 2008 Six Nations before getting canned. If you want to believe that he got canned as a result of the 2008 Six Nations alone, and that the RWC07 performances had nothing to do with it, that's up to you. I don't.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby ronk » April 9th, 2017, 10:08 pm

O'Sullivan got the sack because of bad tournament, weak results during rebuilding time and because Kidney was there to take his place.

Kidney probably doesn't get sacked when he does if Schmidt isn't available and doing so much better.

It's the combination. If Munster win 2 European Cups back to back you can be sure Rassie will be in line if things aren't going well for Ireland.

If the IRFU doesn't care about the RWC they certainly don't care much about this tour. It's a chance for Joe to build.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby leinsterforever » April 10th, 2017, 2:03 am

Am I alone in thinking that Kilcoyne's unreliability in the scrum makes him a bit of a non-runner at Test level? Think I'd prefer to see Buckley and Dooley on this tour.

Presumably they'll take three tightheads? Michael Bent is probably in pole position to nab the third spot, although Conor Carey looked like an excellent player before he got injured.

Is Jackson still illegal in the US? Might see Carbery at 10 vs the USA, with Scannell as cover, if so

It would be great to see Sweetnam and Stockdale see gametime. I think those two could become world class
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby simonokeeffe » April 10th, 2017, 8:18 am

Dont think Jackson was illegal, think he was given a chance to avoid media scrutiny/they didnt want the distraction
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby Golf Man » April 10th, 2017, 12:30 pm

leinsterforever wrote:Am I alone in thinking that Kilcoyne's unreliability in the scrum makes him a bit of a non-runner at Test level? Think I'd prefer to see Buckley and Dooley on this tour.

Presumably they'll take three tightheads? Michael Bent is probably in pole position to nab the third spot, although Conor Carey looked like an excellent player before he got injured.

Is Jackson still illegal in the US? Might see Carbery at 10 vs the USA, with Scannell as cover, if so

It would be great to see Sweetnam and Stockdale see gametime. I think those two could become world class


You're not alone but its a lazy cliche - Kilcoyne is a starter for Munster, whose scrum has been very solid and pretty much on top this year. Thats obviously not all down to him, but it can't be done without him being reliable at scrum time. Its not the strongest point of his game, but I don't look at a Munster scrum through my hands (like I do with Archer at TH for example)
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby TrapperChamonix » April 11th, 2017, 5:30 pm

Mention of Archer, reminds me of just what a great improving asset that John Ryan has and is becoming. While Belham was our backup TH he was always a big risk in the scrum. Furlong is a long way out in front but Ryan looks international quality and will benefit from significant game time in Japan. Cant wait to see how much he comes on.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby jimbobjoe » April 11th, 2017, 9:12 pm

TrapperChamonix wrote:Mention of Archer, reminds me of just what a great improving asset that John Ryan has and is becoming. While Belham was our backup TH he was always a big risk in the scrum. Furlong is a long way out in front but Ryan looks international quality and will benefit from significant game time in Japan. Cant wait to see how much he comes on.


Ryan is definitely another great asset to have. I wouldn't doubt Bealham's ability in the scrum though, he's more than held his own on the big stage. He wasn't involved during the 6N this year as he had just returned from injury (I think) and possibly due to Connachts own needs. I'd expect to see him back at second choice in November.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby matt » April 11th, 2017, 11:54 pm

Agree that majority of players should be Developmental with eye on 2019 so main senior players likely to be Healy, D.Ryan, Toner, Payne, Earls, Zebo & Heaslip would also be very useful as captain if fit and if not POM or SOB would be captain in unlikely event of them not being selected for the Lions.

I'd expect something like 1 Healy/Kilcoyne 2 N.Scannell/Cronin 3 J.Ryan/Bealham/Bent 4 Henderson/Threadwell/Dillane if fit 5 Toner/D.Ryan 6 Leavy/JOD/Ruddock 7 VDF/TOD 8 Heaslip (captain)/Conan 9 Marmian/L.McGrath 10 Jackson/R.Byrne 11 Zebo/Earls/Conway/Stockdale 12 R.Scannell 13 Payne 14 Sweetman/A.Byrne 15 Carbury or TOH

This tour with 3 test games is best opportunity these players will get to make a breakthrough before the Irish Lions players are available again in November.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby Ruckedtobits » April 12th, 2017, 8:19 am

matt wrote:Agree that majority of players should be Developmental with eye on 2019 so main senior players likely to be Healy, D.Ryan, Toner, Payne, Earls, Zebo & Heaslip would also be very useful as captain if fit and if not POM or SOB would be captain in unlikely event of them not being selected for the Lions.

I'd expect something like 1 Healy/Kilcoyne 2 N.Scannell/Cronin 3 J.Ryan/Bealham/Bent 4 Henderson/Threadwell/Dillane if fit 5 Toner/D.Ryan 6 Leavy/JOD/Ruddock 7 VDF/TOD 8 Heaslip (captain)/Conan 9 Marmian/L.McGrath 10 Jackson/R.Byrne 11 Zebo/Earls/Conway/Stockdale 12 R.Scannell 13 Payne 14 Sweetman/A.Byrne 15 Carbury or TOH

This tour with 3 test games is best opportunity these players will get to make a breakthrough before the Irish Lions players are available again in November.


Your midfield options are shy of Ulster players who despite the form of their team are definitely among the substitute selections for our pair at present. The notable ones are Olding and Marshall but McCloskey may also be in the frame. Rory O'Loughlin may also be under the microscope.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby Oldschool » April 12th, 2017, 8:57 am

matt wrote:Agree that majority of players should be Developmental with eye on 2019 so main senior players likely to be Healy, D.Ryan, Toner, Payne, Earls, Zebo & Heaslip would also be very useful as captain if fit and if not POM or SOB would be captain in unlikely event of them not being selected for the Lions.

I'd expect something like 1 Healy/Kilcoyne 2 N.Scannell/Cronin 3 J.Ryan/Bealham/Bent 4 Henderson/Threadwell/Dillane if fit 5 Toner/D.Ryan 6 Leavy/JOD/Ruddock 7 VDF/TOD 8 Heaslip (captain)/Conan 9 Marmian/L.McGrath 10 Jackson/R.Byrne 11 Zebo/Earls/Conway/Stockdale 12 R.Scannell 13 Payne 14 Sweetman/A.Byrne 15 Carbury or TOH

This tour with 3 test games is best opportunity these players will get to make a breakthrough before the Irish Lions players are available again in November.

D. Ryan won't be going to Japan, he's going to Racing instead.
Heaslip will either be with the lions or rested.
Zebo???? No place for Gilroy?
Very light on centres - ROLoughlan Olding Marshall Trimble
Payne likely to be FB means Byrne will lose out to Carberry at 10.
It's also likely Joe will bring someone like Larmour on this trip.
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