Tour to Japan

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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby simonokeeffe » May 11th, 2017, 10:37 am

Keatley might be excluded if he is moving to France
When he spreads his legs like that youd need dynamite or the Highland Light Infantry to shift him.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby rugby_fan » May 11th, 2017, 10:47 am

when is squad likely to be announced?
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby johng » May 11th, 2017, 11:35 am

Just me then. Ok.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby Fireworks » May 11th, 2017, 12:52 pm

With the mix of young guys and second strings being suggested in most of the posts I think this could be a tough two games. Japan may have caught SA by surprise but they are improving and will be motivates to get a result at home against number 4 in the world.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby matt » May 11th, 2017, 5:33 pm

Starting point is 11 Lions missing and I don't think Trimble, Cronin, Bealham, D.Ryan will travel due to combination of needing a rest etc.

I would bring 13 backs & 17 forwards to USA giving you 3 extra backs & 4 extra forwards on matchday 23 (Carbury, TOH, A.Byrne, Sweetman, Conway, Stockdale, Ringrose, R.Scannell, Marshall, McCluskey, Jackson, Marmian, L.McGrath/Dooley, Buckley, Porter, J.Ryan, Bent, N.Scannell (captain), Tracy, Heffernan, Threadwell, Holland, Molony, J.Ryan, VDF, Leavy, Conan, Ruddock, O'Donoghue).

That would allow 10 uncapped players A.Byrne, Sweetman, Stockdale, Buckley, Dooley, Porter, Heffernan, Threadwell, Molony, J.Ryan but still a reasonably experienced if young squad.

Then for the more important Japan part of the tour I would replace 6 players with Zebo, Earls, O'Loughlin, R.Byrne, Healy, Toner depending on USA performances. All are experienced except ROL & R.Byrne but not bringing them to USA gives chance to some youngsters they would not otherwise get.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby CiaranIrl » May 11th, 2017, 6:23 pm

You're all mad if you think that fit players who are on the Lions waiting list won't go on this tour.

1. Cronin, Healy
2. Cronin, Scannell, Tracy.
3. Ryan, Bealham, Bent.
4/5. Toner, Roux, Holland, Dillane
6/7/8 Heaslip (captain, O'D if not fit), Leavy, VDF, Conan, Ruddock
9./10 Marmion, McGrath, Jackson, Carbery.
12/13. Ringrose, Scannell, Marshall, O'Loughlin
Back 3. Zebo, Earls, Trimble, TOH, Kearney (Conway if not fit)
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » May 11th, 2017, 6:35 pm

Do we know who's on the waiting list?
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby Twist » May 11th, 2017, 6:53 pm

rugby_fan wrote:when is squad likely to be announced?


It's on Monday


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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby matt » May 11th, 2017, 7:30 pm

CiaranIrl wrote:You're all mad if you think that fit players who are on the Lions waiting list won't go on this tour.

1. Cronin, Healy
2. Cronin, Scannell, Tracy.
3. Ryan, Bealham, Bent.
4/5. Toner, Roux, Holland, Dillane
6/7/8 Heaslip (captain, O'D if not fit), Leavy, VDF, Conan, Ruddock
9./10 Marmion, McGrath, Jackson, Carbery.
12/13. Ringrose, Scannell, Marshall, O'Loughlin
Back 3. Zebo, Earls, Trimble, TOH, Kearney (Conway if not fit)


Our sanity may be open to doubt but so is the fitness of Kearney, Heaslip, Dillane, S.Cronin, Bealham, Earls & we need to try a few options in Back 3 which as Lions selection shows is the weakest part of Irish team & young players like Sweetnam, Conway, A.Byrne, Stockdale, ROL should be given a chance to impress Joe in a tour setup with 2 years+ to RWC.

Rob Kearney even if fit needs to play well for Leinster to have any chance of Ireland again. Nothing against the guy but his performances in last 3 or 4 years would suggest he is not the future & others like Zebo & Earls need to step up to be on the level of North, L.Williams, Daly, Seymour & other Northern Hemisphere wingers who are not even anywhere like as good as likes of Savea, Milner Skudder, Cordero, Folau or up and coming Ieone, McKenzie & Jordie Barrett.

Our strength everywhere else means Ireland need at least a competent Back 3 as we head towards RWC 2019.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby CiaranIrl » May 11th, 2017, 8:57 pm

matt wrote:
CiaranIrl wrote:You're all mad if you think that fit players who are on the Lions waiting list won't go on this tour.

1. Cronin, Healy
2. Cronin, Scannell, Tracy.
3. Ryan, Bealham, Bent.
4/5. Toner, Roux, Holland, Dillane
6/7/8 Heaslip (captain, O'D if not fit), Leavy, VDF, Conan, Ruddock
9./10 Marmion, McGrath, Jackson, Carbery.
12/13. Ringrose, Scannell, Marshall, O'Loughlin
Back 3. Zebo, Earls, Trimble, TOH, Kearney (Conway if not fit)


Our sanity may be open to doubt but so is the fitness of Kearney, Heaslip, Dillane, S.Cronin, Bealham, Earls & we need to try a few options in Back 3 which as Lions selection shows is the weakest part of Irish team & young players like Sweetnam, Conway, A.Byrne, Stockdale, ROL should be given a chance to impress Joe in a tour setup with 2 years+ to RWC.

Rob Kearney even if fit needs to play well for Leinster to have any chance of Ireland again. Nothing against the guy but his performances in last 3 or 4 years would suggest he is not the future & others like Zebo & Earls need to step up to be on the level of North, L.Williams, Daly, Seymour & other Northern Hemisphere wingers who are not even anywhere like as good as likes of Savea, Milner Skudder, Cordero, Folau or up and coming Ieone, McKenzie & Jordie Barrett.

Our strength everywhere else means Ireland need at least a competent Back 3 as we head towards RWC 2019.


Lads like Sweetnam, Stockdale etc. aren't usually in the starting team for the big matches for their provinces. If they start by getting consistent starts in the champions cup at that level, we can start to wonder if they have it in them to be at Savea's level. Playing two random Ireland games against Japan isn't going to tell us anything about them we don't already know. It's far more important that players who'll probably go to Japan for a world cup get a flavour of what it's like out there. Especially so given Japan are in our pool. I might leave Trimble out for Byrne though. At least Byrne usually starts big games for Leinster and age isn't on Trimble's side.

Bealham, Earls & Cronin are definitely fit. Earls and Bealham played last weekend sure. Dillane might not be, but I heard he's nearly back. Heaslip will apparently be back in the next couple of weeks. If so, there's no reason he wouldn't go to be captain. This whole, 'it seems to me that they could do with a rest' apropos of nothing doesn't make sense to me. Medical staff determine fitness, nothing else.

Kearney: No, he's probably not fit, but the Munster brainwashing that he's now a bad player has failed on me. He was poor in the 6N, but he was excellent in the autumn. He was injured for the South Africa tour, but he had a fine season before that. O'Halloran & Zebo should definitely be given an opportunity to make a case. Maybe even Carbery, but picking random punters who don't start for their provinces isn't the answer either.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » May 11th, 2017, 9:39 pm

I think that thinking is too short term and ignoring the fact that we had quite a poor 6N in many ways. There are areas we need to improve on and this series really doesn't matter at all in terms of the results, plus there's no other tournament for us to blood players this summer.

Saying players should get a rest Is fairly subjective alright but don't really see what the issue is with saying that on a fan forum. I think it's valid to question why you'd bring guys who are out of form too and saying they could do with a rest is a fairly plausible solution. Might be right, might be wrong, but nothing wrong with saying it.

You're really only talking about a handful of first choice guys missing out and a handful of young guys stepping in, some of whom would only be there to hold tackle bags and see how they do in the environment, I don't see why that's a bad thing. Even if it's not the way you'd go yourself, there's nothing wrong with it. Personally the only real experimentation I want to see is in the back three, outside of that the new guys in the squad would only be bit part players and I doubt others' teams would be far off that.

Think you're wrong about Sweetnam btw, I think he is first choice and would have started the semi if not for being concussed the week before. EDIT: that's what I took from what you said, but fair enough if you just meant that he needs more games at a higher level.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby CiaranIrl » May 11th, 2017, 10:24 pm

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:Saying players should get a rest Is fairly subjective alright but don't really see what the issue is with saying that on a fan forum. I think it's valid to question why you'd bring guys who are out of form too and saying they could do with a rest is a fairly plausible solution. Might be right, might be wrong, but nothing wrong with saying it.
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Even if it's not the way you'd go yourself, there's nothing wrong with it.


Totally. Nothing wrong with my opinion either. I'm not policing other people's opinions, I'm just giving my own. I never said there was an issue!
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » May 11th, 2017, 10:28 pm

Apologies, read it as you thought people were stupid to guess about players' fitness.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby ronk » May 11th, 2017, 10:59 pm

Our first choice front row is off with the Lions so there's a chance there for others too.

The issue I have with saying that players need a rest is that it fundamentally misunderstands that they get a rest after the tour. It's a province first attitude, and whatever about the merits, the international coach doesn't see them (with rare exceptions). That's makes predictions based on such thinking unreliable.

This isn't a situation where Joe needs to gamble on guys who are borderline.

There are a few players who have been riding pine a little and could really do with chances: Healy, John Ryan, Ruddock, Marmion, Marshall/Scannell and O'Halloran should all be coming in.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » May 11th, 2017, 11:34 pm

ronk wrote:The issue I have with saying that players need a rest is that it fundamentally misunderstands that they get a rest after the tour. It's a province first attitude, and whatever about the merits, the international coach doesn't see them (with rare exceptions). That's makes predictions based on such thinking unreliable.

This isn't a situation where Joe needs to gamble on guys who are borderline.

There are a few players who have been riding pine a little and could really do with chances: Healy, John Ryan, Ruddock, Marmion, Marshall/Scannell and O'Halloran should all be coming in.


Who's saying those guys shouldn't travel?

I think you're taking the rest element too literally, it's not just a case of giving guys an extended break, it's acknowledging average/poor form and injuries as well. Why flog someone who's not playing well or potentially struggling with injury?

Dev would be one guy that I'd really like to rest but it can't happen because of who's missing.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby CiaranIrl » May 12th, 2017, 8:42 am

I'd personally love to see a test team that looks something like: TOH, Zebo, Ringrose, Scannell, Earls, Marmion, Jackson, Heaslip (captain), VDF, Ruddock, Holland, Toner, Ryan, Cronin, Healy. Bench: Cronin, Scannell, Bealham, Roux, Leavy, McGrath, Carbery, O'Loughlin

Mixing a couple of new caps with second string, but with a sprinkling of experience. I feel if you pull all of Zebo, Earls, Heaslip, Holland, Healy out that team, it's very raw. You learn more if you blend in the new
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby Peg Leg » May 12th, 2017, 12:02 pm

CiaranIrl wrote:I'd personally love to see a test team that looks something like: TOH, Zebo, Ringrose, Scannell, Earls, Marmion, Jackson, Heaslip (captain), VDF, Ruddock, Holland, Toner, Ryan, Cronin, Healy. Bench: Cronin, Scannell, Bealham, Roux, Leavy, McGrath, Carbery, O'Loughlin

Mixing a couple of new caps with second string, but with a sprinkling of experience. I feel if you pull all of Zebo, Earls, Heaslip, Holland, Healy out that team, it's very raw. You learn more if you blend in the new

Nice mix. That said I would prefer to see Byrne outside Ringrose. I think they combine well. Doin so would probably see Zeebs at FB, Earls at 11 and TOH on the bench.

Edit: scratch that TOH dropped altogether with Carberry covering OH & FB. Something tells me that Tiernan's one hand carrying (thanks Bundee), would be frowned upon by director of risk management JS
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby LeRouxIsPHat » May 12th, 2017, 12:15 pm

I'd go with a weaker team against the US but for Japan I'd pick...

Zebo
Sweetnam
Ringrose
McCloskey
Earls
Jackson
Marmion
Conan
VDF
Ruddock
Dev
Treadwell
Ryan
Scannell
Healy

Tracy
Kilcoyne
Bent (just filling a jersey because I'd leave Bealham out)
Molony
Leavy
Luke
Carbery
Adam Byrne

I don't see TOH playing much for Ireland so I'd leave him out.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby CiaranIrl » May 12th, 2017, 12:46 pm

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:I'd go with a weaker team against the US but for Japan I'd pick...

Zebo
Sweetnam
Ringrose
McCloskey
Earls
Jackson
Marmion
Conan
VDF
Ruddock
Dev
Treadwell
Ryan
Scannell
Healy

Tracy
Kilcoyne
Bent (just filling a jersey because I'd leave Bealham out)
Molony
Leavy
Luke
Carbery
Adam Byrne

I don't see TOH playing much for Ireland so I'd leave him out.


I really don't think McCloskey has it in him to make the step up. He's a big unit who looks good when he can bully players, but his skill set isn't enough to cut it when that doesn't work. He might be big enough to pull it off at Pro 12 level or against Japan / USA, but he would be completely shown up against a NH team. Scannell is the best bet for a backup to Henshaw IMO.
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Re: Tour to Japan

Postby Peg Leg » May 12th, 2017, 12:57 pm

Yeah I think Robb has more about him at IC but injuries have closed that door for now.
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